Rules to help keep kids enjoying and involved in wrestling?

[MNbadger]

Long story longer, I don't see stalling on the feet as prevalent as some others do.  when a wrestler repeatedly backs up they get called.  Just because someone takes a step or two back does not constitute stalling imo., neither does sprawling (a fundamental skill).

[bigG]

I was supporting the use of full-size mats always but trying to point out how it might conflict with the argument as to backing up being stalling.  If kids never backed up you could wrestle inside a 9 foot circle.

I absolutely agree but.....................
How does this align with all the distress people show about stalling?
If no one took a step back (what many want), we could wrestles in a 9' circle...............
Hmmmm

Here is a rule;

6th grade and up NO MINI MATS. Full size mat ......

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!  Let 'em wrestle!  

College out of bounds rules start at 6th grade full size mat.

It also goes to the refs having a consistent platform.

Stalling? So this discourages kids from wrestling?

MnBadger has a good point.  My concern is less about backing up, based on my recent observations of middle school wrestling.  I just watched a big MS tourney wrestled on 8 mats.  Most kids really were aggressive.  Those who continually backed out were consistently called for stalling, on the bigger mats (7th and 8th graders).  The small mats (5th and 6th graders) seemed to get away with it more, perhaps because there was just less room for it to become blatantly obvious?  The biggest concern for me is the increased chance of action taking kids on smaller mats out of bounds, effectively stopping their completion of moves.  This was an issue on the feet, as well as on the mat.  I like the bigger mat because it lets them finish their moves, which intrinsically rewards and encourages aggressive wrestling.  

As for the headlock issue, I was amazed at how rarely leg attacks were used in the tournament I just watched.  Kids seemed to prefer going upstairs, overwhelmingly, or working for snap downs.  That led to a lot of scoreless first periods, as most of them countered upper body attacks well.  However, a lot of 8th graders are in for a huge shock next year, when opponents start shooting on their legs.  I really do think that allowing no headlocks in lower elementary competitions would force kids and coaches to focus on doubles and singles, before they get caught up in 'head hunting.'  By what I observed, the kids who were shooting had better stances, unlike the others who seldom even bent their knees.

I would be thrilled to see the renaissance of throwing. Saw it more at the NCAAs. Good stuff. I don't want my wrestlers to focus only on leg attacks. Throwing is part of the sport, and an important one.

If you're wrestling a man with straight legs it's the perfect time to shoot. They'll learn. That's why we have those younger kids wrestling.

[Handles II]

BigG,
Are you suggesting that throwing becomes a rule that we should implement for younger wrestlers?  If so lay it out there, if not, some of you guys are getting WAAAAY off track on the topic and thinking of what fans want to see rather than things that are potentially negative to the goal of retaining more kids and families in the sport.

[Handles II]

So what would be wrong with having leg-attacks for k-2, adding body throws and snapdowns for 3-4, and allowing headlocks for 5th on up?

Remember gents, at these young ages, the neck is a very weak part of the body.

[bigG]

BigG,
Are you suggesting that throwing becomes a rule that we should implement for younger wrestlers?  If so lay it out there, if not, some of you guys are getting WAAAAY off track on the topic and thinking of what fans want to see rather than things that are potentially negative to the goal of retaining more kids and families in the sport.

Is throwing disallowed from youth wrestling? I'd say don't regulate throwing, as throws are already over regulated, IMHO.

"So what would be wrong with having leg-attacks for k-2, adding body throws and snapdowns for 3-4, and allowing headlocks for 5th on up?

Remember gents, at these young ages, the neck is a very weak part of the body."

I'd be fine with this.

[imnofish]

BigG,
Are you suggesting that throwing becomes a rule that we should implement for younger wrestlers?  If so lay it out there, if not, some of you guys are getting WAAAAY off track on the topic and thinking of what fans want to see rather than things that are potentially negative to the goal of retaining more kids and families in the sport.

Is throwing disallowed from youth wrestling? I'd say don't regulate throwing, as throws are already over regulated, IMHO.

"So what would be wrong with having leg-attacks for k-2, adding body throws and snapdowns for 3-4, and allowing headlocks for 5th on up?

Remember gents, at these young ages, the neck is a very weak part of the body."

I'd be fine with this.

Yes, this makes sense, IMO.  I think starting kids out with leg attacks would force them to adopt better stances earlier, for offensive and defensive benefits.  That's a strong foundation upon which to build the rest of their takedown arsenal. 

[bigG]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

[wrastle63]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

[DocWrestling]

Sometimes you need rules or no adapted rules to help develop wrestlers for later years.

Sometimes you simply need rules to avoid losing wrestlers at younger ages.

Like ALL sports, there are way too many kids that participate in youth sports but stop at some point.

There is not a shortage of youth wrestlers but there is a shortage of high school wrestlers.

I have always said that we would have a lot more high school wrestlers if no wrestling existed until 6th grade.   But of course our individual wrestlers would be behind wrestlers in other states that wrestled.

Sometimes you need to put the sport ahead of the individual.

[ganderson]

Why are kids quitting all sports in general?  The data that some researchers have gotten back show that it isn't fun anymore for the kid.  "I don't believe it."  "Kids are just lazy and not like they used to be 30-40 years ago."   "wrestling is hard work and kids just don't want to do it"  I see the previous quotes a lot.  Folks if you don't believe the answer kids are giving for why they are quitting than stop asking.  We need to start asking why does it stop being fun?  It's more important to Mom and Dad, no matter what they tell you?  Pecking order and specialization?  Narrow that down and FIX those core issues.  We have lots of ideas but seems like we never get t the FIX part.

[bigG]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

[wrastle63]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

It is your opinion that it is negative. I think everyone can agree that at the very minimum K-1 head throw banned would be a GREAT thing for our sport. Improve fundamentals and keep kids out for wrestling. I would push for this and if it is seen as a good thing maybe even go 2-3 no head throws. That allows kids to develop fundamentals/stay out for the sport. I love throws and think they are great but is doing a head throw at K-1, 2-3 age really helping that?

[DocWrestling]

here is the problem I see in youth sports and why kids are quitting.  They are quitting because it is no longer fun.  Why is it no longer fun?  This is across all sports

Too many competitions too early.

1) Kids and parents think competitions are more fun than practices so we have more competitions.  More people make money off the competitions so we have more competitions

But just like we don't give candy all the time just because it is good, we must limit competitions.

Kids used to practice and could not wait until they could get great uniforms and were able to compete and travel.  Now they get that at second grade and each year it becomes more of a letdown because the uniforms don't get cooler and competitions get old.  heck many complain that high school is worse than youth sports because the uniforms are not as nice and dads aren't coaching.

More practices but make them FUN.  Less intensity and less competitions.  Build to high school.  Don't give them everything at 2nd grade so it is a letdown later with less excitement and fun.  Combine less fun with more interests and sports lose out

[Handles II]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject.

As for reffing that 4th grader, it's pretty simple. Yes, it's a penalty, like locked hands. If he wants to head steal at 4th grade (and have it done to him) or lock hands then wrestle FS/GR.  Easy.  And I see no real issue (as I suggested) with body throws at 4th grade.
The strength of the neck of a 9th grader vs a 9 year old in relation to their body is very different. Grabbing a kid by the head and using the neck to hoist their entire body off the mat isn't a great idea. If nothing else, that should be paramount in consideration.

Doc, to your points I agree, but I honestly don't see the age of starting or how many competitions some kids go to as something that will change. Parents will do what they think is best. Clubs will do what will get the most membership and raise the most money. This is why I started this thread about rules IN competition to help with those other reasons why kids quit.  Other adults involved in other sports are able to comprehend these things and make modifications to help keep kids involved. Pitching rules won't prevent a dad from having his kid do 500 pitches a week, but it can at least limit during the games, and maybe, just maybe, that parent starts to connect the dots.

[bigoil]

Should we penalize a kid for doing a double leg to his neck side instead of driving with his neck?

what if a kid hangs his head over while riding, the bottom guy shouldn't look to grab the head (and arm)? If the kid shot, stays on his knees and comes up with his head, the wrestler shouldn't crossface headlock him? Where do you stop on the headlock? Should we ban riding legs because that is an advanced move as well?

If you wrestle one tournament in K-2, you won't run into many headlocks will you?