Rules to help keep kids enjoying and involved in wrestling?

[DocWrestling]

Some will always teach to win now and others will teach to win later.

Not always sure which is right but I look at all of youth sports as preparing for high school success so have never really cared about success at the youth level.  Focus on improving and having fun with the journey.  Problem sometimes is that winning is fun.   All sports get harder and more intense as you get older and therefore you need to have kids fall in love with the sport rather than falling in love with winning.  But my philosophy has always been you can always find someone better and someone that is worse.  Whether you win or lose that game or match does not tell a lot about whether you are improving.

I did not teach my son the head throw yet and he is in third grade.  Then went to tournaments for first time this year and he got thrown.  Now he knew what it was and I taught him defense thinking I needed to help him.  In reality it backfired on me because then he wanted to be up by the head and even try it himself.  

Some tournaments do not allow head throw for K-2 and I think that is a great idea but in reality I just wish there was no K-2 division.  They do not need tournaments

[wrastle63]

Some will always teach to win now and others will teach to win later.

Not always sure which is right but I look at all of youth sports as preparing for high school success so have never really cared about success at the youth level.  Focus on improving and having fun with the journey.  Problem sometimes is that winning is fun.   All sports get harder and more intense as you get older and therefore you need to have kids fall in love with the sport rather than falling in love with winning.  But my philosophy has always been you can always find someone better and someone that is worse.  Whether you win or lose that game or match does not tell a lot about whether you are improving.

I did not teach my son the head throw yet and he is in third grade.  Then went to tournaments for first time this year and he got thrown.  Now he knew what it was and I taught him defense thinking I needed to help him.  In reality it backfired on me because then he wanted to be up by the head and even try it himself.  

Some tournaments do not allow head throw for K-2 and I think that is a great idea but in reality I just wish there was no K-2 division.  They do not need tournaments

That is it right there.

[bigG]

Under 6th grade they do not need allot of tournaments.

I like the idea of duals at younger ages much better control and it will keep the parents in the stands.

What we do not need is more everyone gets a trophy mentality.


Rules to help;

Estimating weights zero weigh ins (not getting on the scale until middle school).
More dual meets for youth. Team building.

I'm a big fan of those duals, too. I think in middle school especially, the kids are ripe for the picking up the team concept.

I'd also like youth wrestling (and middle school) to compete after a HS dual that maybe had too many forfeits. That way the kids get the bigger crowd, the crowd gets their money's worth, I get to announce adorable little kids like they're Dah Crusher, etc.

We did that for two duals the last two years and the little guys loved it, and the parents got some great entertainment.

[GradeTough]

Some will always teach to win now and others will teach to win later.

Not always sure which is right but I look at all of youth sports as preparing for high school success so have never really cared about success at the youth level.  Focus on improving and having fun with the journey.  Problem sometimes is that winning is fun.   All sports get harder and more intense as you get older and therefore you need to have kids fall in love with the sport rather than falling in love with winning.  But my philosophy has always been you can always find someone better and someone that is worse.  Whether you win or lose that game or match does not tell a lot about whether you are improving.

I did not teach my son the head throw yet and he is in third grade.  Then went to tournaments for first time this year and he got thrown.  Now he knew what it was and I taught him defense thinking I needed to help him.  In reality it backfired on me because then he wanted to be up by the head and even try it himself.  

Some tournaments do not allow head throw for K-2 and I think that is a great idea but in reality I just wish there was no K-2 division.  They do not need tournaments

Having a long-term approach appears to be the better strategy. Delay the notation of win-now for win-later although you have to mix in success for the kids so they are able to endure the grind of the sport. Kids at a young age won't enjoy the sport if they are constantly losing. My son is just learning how to throw and he is in the 3rd grade. He focused on leg attacks and defending the head throw early. This has proved to be a great strategy. I refused for him to learn how to head throw until now. He needed to develop discipline and strength for flow and motion. Now he is learning to throw but not until he proved he could stay in a stance and understand why being a straight-up wrestler was problematic.

Learning how to stay in a stance for long periods of time and using setups before attacking is physically and technically more difficult than running after a person's head. Head throwers expose their legs allowing for pretty easy single legs.

I saw a lot of kids have success early with head throws but now struggle because the best kids don't allow that to happen. Good kids can stay in their stance and look for opportunities to attack or counter. Even if a good kid ties, they know how to slide by and defend against tight collar ties. Thus preventing the casual head thrower the level of success they used to be accustomed to.  

Early success head throwers are later exposed on their feet and fall behind because their early success doesn't translate later. Coaches and unknowledgeable parents supported it early but get confused why it isn't working anymore. Sure, they can adjust with practice and time. I for one originally thought head throwers should be banned. But as my son became more comfortable with defense and attack style wrestling, those kids were the easiest to wrestle. Young kids just have to get past that moment when head throwers appear to be king and stay disciplined by staying in their stance and sticking with the fundamentals.

Thus, the long-term approach may not show up with immediate early success but will later.

[Handles II]

But mostly what you are speaking too is educating and getting the coaches to teach fundamentals or coaching guidelines. I agree on the headlock but am not willing to say ban it. Maybe penalty points if it is improper
unused for sure to discourage it.

All good stuff but it seems we have to have consistency in teaching wrestling starting with fundamentals. Like
eg attacks low singles or properly executed blast double. High crotch etc.. I know clubs and school,programs that emphasize this. A they also tech defending the headlock and trust me the kids who try to execute it in there wrestlers get put right to their backs with roll throughs and a defensive lift.

The reason so many use it in youth is because it works. Teach a solid defense so it does not work and they will not have success with it and they will stop using it.

A properly executed head and arm throw is an effective wrestling technique used even on occasion in D1 but usually in HS it becomes far less effective because of defense.

Choking and improper technique should be met with penalty points I agree with that. But banning is extreme and not really nessecery.

Those who teach it early usually only have early success and after time they find out it causes there wrestler too loose more matches than win. At the very very young ages the ref should stop if the kids are doing nothing but grabbing at the head. I actually think diaper division should be eliminated anyways. A wrestling at tournaments should start at 4-5 grade. No compitition other than very controlled matches any earlier.

\

Once again ramjet, in order to show the defense, don't you actually have to show the motion for the headsteal and how it is used? As MNBadger explained, and I've seen the same many times, once you show how to defend it (and thus how to do it) more kids start head-hunting, which is exactly what we don't want young kids to do because of the reasons that you bring up.
Additionally as Dforsythe said, this is most definitely one move that we all know causes kids to quit. Be it the kid that gets their neck wrenched, choked a bit, or a concussion. OR as you mentioned the kid that learns it early, lives by it, and then is ineffective later on. So possibly due to the headsteal, both kids end up quitting.

Wouldn't removing this move be creating the same proactive approach that other sports are doing for their youth? Protecting, increasing enjoyment, and helping fundamentals?

I think this might be something to look into. There most certainly might be some other great ideas or modifications to rules out there. Let's hear them.

PS. I agree with your assessment about k-2 tournaments. As a youth coach recently said "Youth tournaments are the best feeder program for kids joining basketball by 4th grade."  There might be some real truth to that. 

[ramjet]

Some will always teach to win now and others will teach to win later.

Not always sure which is right but I look at all of youth sports as preparing for high school success so have never really cared about success at the youth level.  Focus on improving and having fun with the journey.  Problem sometimes is that winning is fun.   All sports get harder and more intense as you get older and therefore you need to have kids fall in love with the sport rather than falling in love with winning.  But my philosophy has always been you can always find someone better and someone that is worse.  Whether you win or lose that game or match does not tell a lot about whether you are improving.

I did not teach my son the head throw yet and he is in third grade.  Then went to tournaments for first time this year and he got thrown.  Now he knew what it was and I taught him defense thinking I needed to help him.  In reality it backfired on me because then he wanted to be up by the head and even try it himself.  

Some tournaments do not allow head throw for K-2 and I think that is a great idea but in reality I just wish there was no K-2 division.  They do not need tournaments

Having a long-term approach appears to be the better strategy. Delay the notation of win-now for win-later although you have to mix in success for the kids so they are able to endure the grind of the sport. Kids at a young age won't enjoy the sport if they are constantly losing. My son is just learning how to throw and he is in the 3rd grade. He focused on leg attacks and defending the head throw early. This has proved to be a great strategy. I refused for him to learn how to head throw until now. He needed to develop discipline and strength for flow and motion. Now he is learning to throw but not until he proved he could stay in a stance and understand why being a straight-up wrestler was problematic.

Learning how to stay in a stance for long periods of time and using setups before attacking is physically and technically more difficult than running after a person's head. Head throwers expose their legs allowing for pretty easy single legs.

I saw a lot of kids have success early with head throws but now struggle because the best kids don't allow that to happen. Good kids can stay in their stance and look for opportunities to attack or counter. Even if a good kid ties, they know how to slide by and defend against tight collar ties. Thus preventing the casual head thrower the level of success they used to be accustomed to.  

Early success head throwers are later exposed on their feet and fall behind because their early success doesn't translate later. Coaches and unknowledgeable parents supported it early but get confused why it isn't working anymore. Sure, they can adjust with practice and time. I for one originally thought head throwers should be banned. But as my son became more comfortable with defense and attack style wrestling, those kids were the easiest to wrestle. Young kids just have to get past that moment when head throwers appear to be king and stay disciplined by staying in their stance and sticking with the fundamentals.

Thus, the long-term approach may not show up with immediate early success but will later.

This is spot on.

[ramjet]

But mostly what you are speaking too is educating and getting the coaches to teach fundamentals or coaching guidelines. I agree on the headlock but am not willing to say ban it. Maybe penalty points if it is improper
unused for sure to discourage it.

All good stuff but it seems we have to have consistency in teaching wrestling starting with fundamentals. Like
eg attacks low singles or properly executed blast double. High crotch etc.. I know clubs and school,programs that emphasize this. A they also tech defending the headlock and trust me the kids who try to execute it in there wrestlers get put right to their backs with roll throughs and a defensive lift.

The reason so many use it in youth is because it works. Teach a solid defense so it does not work and they will not have success with it and they will stop using it.

A properly executed head and arm throw is an effective wrestling technique used even on occasion in D1 but usually in HS it becomes far less effective because of defense.

Choking and improper technique should be met with penalty points I agree with that. But banning is extreme and not really nessecery.

Those who teach it early usually only have early success and after time they find out it causes there wrestler too loose more matches than win. At the very very young ages the ref should stop if the kids are doing nothing but grabbing at the head. I actually think diaper division should be eliminated anyways. A wrestling at tournaments should start at 4-5 grade. No compitition other than very controlled matches any earlier.

\

Once again ramjet, in order to show the defense, don't you actually have to show the motion for the headsteal and how it is used? As MNBadger explained, and I've seen the same many times, once you show how to defend it (and thus how to do it) more kids start head-hunting, which is exactly what we don't want young kids to do because of the reasons that you bring up.
Additionally as Dforsythe said, this is most definitely one move that we all know causes kids to quit. Be it the kid that gets their neck wrenched, choked a bit, or a concussion. OR as you mentioned the kid that learns it early, lives by it, and then is ineffective later on. So possibly due to the headsteal, both kids end up quitting.

Wouldn't removing this move be creating the same proactive approach that other sports are doing for their youth? Protecting, increasing enjoyment, and helping fundamentals?

I think this might be something to look into. There most certainly might be some other great ideas or modifications to rules out there. Let's hear them.

PS. I agree with your assessment about k-2 tournaments. As a youth coach recently said "Youth tournaments are the best feeder program for kids joining basketball by 4th grade."  There might be some real truth to that. 

I guess where we disagree is that I do not think you can use rules or legislate change it may have the same detrimental effect on participation numbers. Not sure but my line of thinking.

I am in full agreement In a grass roots approach to better education on coaching youth and how train there minds and muscle memory for develope,ent of fundemental techniques.

Those who really love this sport and appreciate it are always impressed with a youth wrestler who can go out and run Firemanscarry Carry or sweep single to take down or High Crotch. We all for sure cringe when we see the head steal. But good coaches work with their wrestlers and can and do teach the defense without encouraging or allowing the head steal in the mat. Focus and attention to fundamentals.

In defense of parents that teach head steal my guess is that's all they know......

[GradeTough]

Head stealers are easy to teach. Which is why you see so many of them in youth wrestling. Standing straight up and chasing a head allows for early success and potentially an immediate win without having to truly learn the fundamentals. Being disciplined in the fundamentals is difficult and can be frustrating early. Not giving in and reinforcing fundamentals comes with challenges from both the coach and wrestler. Unknowledgeable parents aren't aware of the dangers nor long-term effects of head stealers.

While we shouldn't teach a kid to be a head stealer, we need to know how to defend against them. Again, using fundamental defensive tactics that will stay with a young wrestler forever that they can build from. Even early success defending these head stealers supports why the fundamentals are more valuable.

A head throw should be taught. The debate is when. Also, it should not be used as a primary move but based off of different scenarios and setups. When you see a head throw attempted or made at the elite high school or collegiate levels, the question should be what led to that move. I am sure you will see tons of snaps, fake shots, and other attacks that resulted to a head throw or hip toss. Never was there a concentrated effort to head throw...unless for a last-second, desperation move.

[Handles II]

 We all for sure cringe when we see the head steal.
[/quote]
I love the above statement Ramjet. Very true.
It's a cringe-worthy move at young ages regardless of if it's the kid doing it or the kid receiving it. 
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused hockey to ban checking at early levels of the game?
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused football to change tackling, or to get rid of it completely?

I've got to believe that as long as we do nothing, even though knowledgeable coaches and parents agree that it isn't a good move for young wrestlers (on either side of the equation) that it will continue to exist and cause kids, sooner or later, to quit the sport when perhaps we could be keeping them.   

I'm sensing that Dforsythe might have hit at least one of the bullseyes that we should be aiming at with his idea.

Let kids hit it in FS/GR if they so choose to go that route, but maybe before, I don't know, grade 5 (?) just eliminate it from folkstyle.

[wrastle63]

We all for sure cringe when we see the head steal.

I love the above statement Ramjet. Very true.
It's a cringe-worthy move at young ages regardless of if it's the kid doing it or the kid receiving it. 
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused hockey to ban checking at early levels of the game?
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused football to change tackling, or to get rid of it completely?

I've got to believe that as long as we do nothing, even though knowledgeable coaches and parents agree that it isn't a good move for young wrestlers (on either side of the equation) that it will continue to exist and cause kids, sooner or later, to quit the sport when perhaps we could be keeping them.   

I'm sensing that Dforsythe might have hit at least one of the bullseyes that we should be aiming at with his idea.

Let kids hit it in FS/GR if they so choose to go that route, but maybe before, I don't know, grade 5 (?) just eliminate it from folkstyle.
[/quote]
Even just 3rd or 4th. Get it out of young 1st graders head throwing every match.

[Handles II]

Suggestions thus far are:

Other than non-weigh-in dual meet style events, no k-2 tournaments.
Perhaps the first year (3rd grade) or two years (4th) of individual tournaments no head steals?

This is the sort of progressional rules that other sports have put in to keep kids playing. Good work guys!

Maybe the big question, would this help our young wrestlers, and therefore the sport in general? If yes, then the bigger question. How? We aren't like USA hockey or Little League that pretty much dictates the rules for games and tournaments, and in some cases like football, the techniques used.

[DocWrestling]

One problem with some tournaments and creates more head throws is the fact that they start every period in neutral.  Every match should have three periods and have rules like high school.  If you really do not want to have the flip in youth matches then just designate which wrestler gets choice first in each match.  Kind of like a baseball tournaments that just rotate who is the home team.

[ramjet]

One problem with some tournaments and creates more head throws is the fact that they start every period in neutral.  Every match should have three periods and have rules like high school.  If you really do not want to have the flip in youth matches then just designate which wrestler gets choice first in each match.  Kind of like a baseball tournaments that just rotate who is the home team.

That's an excellent observation.

[bigG]

I understand the drive to kill head steals at youth. Taking a guy's head, with and arm, is legit wrestling. Let's teach them the defense early and call the illegal ones as usual. Most twerps get pinned by the half. Do we make the illegal until middle school? No, it's legit; as is the head steal.

[padre]

We all for sure cringe when we see the head steal.

I love the above statement Ramjet. Very true.
It's a cringe-worthy move at young ages regardless of if it's the kid doing it or the kid receiving it.  
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused hockey to ban checking at early levels of the game?
Isn't that kind of the exact sentiment that has caused football to change tackling, or to get rid of it completely?

I've got to believe that as long as we do nothing, even though knowledgeable coaches and parents agree that it isn't a good move for young wrestlers (on either side of the equation) that it will continue to exist and cause kids, sooner or later, to quit the sport when perhaps we could be keeping them.  

I'm sensing that Dforsythe might have hit at least one of the bullseyes that we should be aiming at with his idea.

Let kids hit it in FS/GR if they so choose to go that route, but maybe before, I don't know, grade 5 (?) just eliminate it from folkstyle.

Even just 3rd or 4th. Get it out of young 1st graders head throwing every match.
[/quote]

While head throws are not taught in my early age group no doubt will there be kids that will be trying to do it against them.  I generally in the K-1st grade after it happens just tell them that is why we keep good position and attack the legs.

But come 2nd grade they need to know both sides of it for multiple reasons....

#1 There are kids out there that have lived on that move going on 3 years at this point and now are actually pretty good at it.  The defense HAS to be taught.   We cant always be the parent/coach saying "don't worry that won't work later" because sometimes it does.  Be proactive and teach the counter.

#2  A kid needs to know the move.  There are situations when down by 3-5 points late in the match that to earn a victory the move must be part of your arsenal.

I am a coach that preaches we are just learning for later years but its a hard excuse to make that it wouldn't be taught just because one is anti-throw.  Then why do greco?  My oldest son threw his whole life and much of it on his way to a state title....and I know of plenty others that have done the same.