Rules to help keep kids enjoying and involved in wrestling?

[DocWrestling]

All the rules you have mentioned are for player safety and not necessarily the safety of their opponent but for the kids themselves.

Lets be honest.  If hockey thinks checking is too dangerous and violent at youth levels and if football thinks tackling is too dangerous and violent at youth levels, what does that say about wrestling.

That we should not be wrestling at all? I am not saying that but isn't wrestling basically checking and tackling without pads?

I am a wrestling nut and all in for the physicality of it all just like I think there is nothing wrong with football or hockey tackling and checking.  But should wrestling be looking inside itself? Or are we just getting too soft.

The problem I have with the physicality of these sports has nothing to do with safety as I think they are as safe as anything in life but more to when some kids are ready for it.  Some kids try wrestling in 2nd grade and are not ready for it and quit and don't like the sport.  I bet many of those kids would have been ready for it if they started at 5th grade but they don't.  Just like in football there are kids that play football in 5th grade and are not ready for tackle football but are ready when they are in 8th grade.  So many kids that try these sports earlier than their ready never join later to play because they feel they are now too far behind

[Numbers]

I would support banning all throws from the standing position until 5th grade (include the youngest two year age division for youth folkstyle state).  Not saying a standing throw would be a penalty point, but the wresters would just restart in the previous position like they went out of bounds.

Many youth select baseball leagues do not allowing kids to leadoff bases until age 11.  Depending on age, players can only leave the base after the pitch crosses the plate or leaves the pitchers hand.  This developmental rule allows pitchers to focus on building the necessary skills while being able to compete in a game.  If 8 year old pitchers had to worry about holding runners on base, youth baseball would be a real mess.

If the young wrestlers had to focus on getting a takedown without a throw in the last 15 seconds of a match, that skill development would benefit them the rest of their wrestling career.

[imnofish]

As a former coach and educator, I am a big advocate of considering age-appropriate readiness in any instructional plan.  Keep it simple and focus on the skills that build the most solid foundation, while simultaneously not deterring from adherence to basic form/skills/position.  This is an issue in all sports today.  A parallel example would be shooting a 3 pointer in basketball.  While it is certainly an important component of the game, most young players lack the strength to shoot it while maintaining proper form.  Elementary and most middle school players adopt lousy technique, in order to launch the ball that far.  This leads to starting the shot with the ball low and the feet flat on the floor.  Not only is it easier to block their shot, but it impedes the development of a good jump shot.  Why are we Americans always in such a hurry to advance our kids prematurely?  Where did our patience go?  

[DocWrestling]

I would support banning all throws from the standing position until 5th grade (include the youngest two year age division for youth folkstyle state).  Not saying a standing throw would be a penalty point, but the wresters would just restart in the previous position like they went out of bounds.

Many youth select baseball leagues do not allowing kids to leadoff bases until age 11.  Depending on age, players can only leave the base after the pitch crosses the plate or leaves the pitchers hand.  This developmental rule allows pitchers to focus on building the necessary skills while being able to compete in a game.  If 8 year old pitchers had to worry about holding runners on base, youth baseball would be a real mess.

If the young wrestlers had to focus on getting a takedown without a throw in the last 15 seconds of a match, that skill development would benefit them the rest of their wrestling career.

What is funny about this is that in Milwaukee and Chicago areas they lead off in baseball at 9 years old and excite people because they are playing "real" baseball at earlier ages and getting kids more advanced faster.  For the record I do not believe that at all.  It becomes much less "real" baseball than the leagues not leading off.  But... it is spreading because other leagues/parents want to keep up with the "joneses" and get worried when someone is doing more with younger kids.  When I grew up we had tee ball at 9 years old.  Now parents think there kids are too good for the tee at 6 years old.  I use a tee at all levels and have to convince parents that the Brewers use tees all the time.

[Coach V]

Why not put the pushout/stepout rule in  for all elementary and middle school levels. Teach them to stay in the middle. Reward attacks on the edge that would otherwise be nothing but a restart. Should improve our freestyle wrestling in the long run right? They won't let us extend our wrestling area with the college rules because of safety so lets keep them in the circle even more.

[DocWrestling]

Why not put the pushout/stepout rule in  for all elementary and middle school levels. Teach them to stay in the middle. Reward attacks on the edge that would otherwise be nothing but a restart. Should improve our freestyle wrestling in the long run right? They won't let us extend our wrestling area with the college rules because of safety so lets keep them in the circle even more.

I love this idea other than so many youth tournaments don't even have defined boundaries or circles

[bigG]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject.

As for reffing that 4th grader, it's pretty simple. Yes, it's a penalty, like locked hands. If he wants to head steal at 4th grade (and have it done to him) or lock hands then wrestle FS/GR.  Easy.  And I see no real issue (as I suggested) with body throws at 4th grade.
The strength of the neck of a 9th grader vs a 9 year old in relation to their body is very different. Grabbing a kid by the head and using the neck to hoist their entire body off the mat isn't a great idea. If nothing else, that should be paramount in consideration.

Doc, to your points I agree, but I honestly don't see the age of starting or how many competitions some kids go to as something that will change. Parents will do what they think is best. Clubs will do what will get the most membership and raise the most money. This is why I started this thread about rules IN competition to help with those other reasons why kids quit.  Other adults involved in other sports are able to comprehend these things and make modifications to help keep kids involved. Pitching rules won't prevent a dad from having his kid do 500 pitches a week, but it can at least limit during the games, and maybe, just maybe, that parent starts to connect the dots.

"I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject. "

Ah, when in disagreement compare apples to guanabana. Brilliant.

I would say make it more like stalling. Kid throws, ref stops the match and gives a warning. Then, it's ding time. It's not the throw that's scary to kids; but the not breathing easily for 30+ seconds. Just wanted clarification. Thanks for making an iceberg out of a snowflake. Keep up the good work.

I'm curious, Handles II, should we put our children in bubble wrap to assure nobody gets hurt; ever.   Palease!

[wrastle63]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject.

As for reffing that 4th grader, it's pretty simple. Yes, it's a penalty, like locked hands. If he wants to head steal at 4th grade (and have it done to him) or lock hands then wrestle FS/GR.  Easy.  And I see no real issue (as I suggested) with body throws at 4th grade.
The strength of the neck of a 9th grader vs a 9 year old in relation to their body is very different. Grabbing a kid by the head and using the neck to hoist their entire body off the mat isn't a great idea. If nothing else, that should be paramount in consideration.

Doc, to your points I agree, but I honestly don't see the age of starting or how many competitions some kids go to as something that will change. Parents will do what they think is best. Clubs will do what will get the most membership and raise the most money. This is why I started this thread about rules IN competition to help with those other reasons why kids quit.  Other adults involved in other sports are able to comprehend these things and make modifications to help keep kids involved. Pitching rules won't prevent a dad from having his kid do 500 pitches a week, but it can at least limit during the games, and maybe, just maybe, that parent starts to connect the dots.

"I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject. "

Ah, when in disagreement compare apples to guanabana. Brilliant.

I would say make it more like stalling. Kid throws, ref stops the match and gives a warning. Then, it's ding time. It's not the throw that's scary to kids; but the not breathing easily for 30+ seconds. Just wanted clarification. Thanks for making an iceberg out of a snowflake. Keep up the good work.

I'm curious, Handles II, should we put our children in bubble wrap to assure nobody gets hurt; ever.   Palease!

No one is saying that at all. I haven't seen one person on this forum/Earth say that a head throw is a fundamental part of wrestling. The head throw is a legitimate move that is used, but why have it legal at young ages. There is literally no benefit. You tell me kids who are throwers have good stances go watch a youth tournament and tell me the kids doing head throws have good stances. So why attack Handles for bringing up a way to help our sport and keep kids out for wrestling

[bigoil]

I think it all starts with position. It's the essence of the sport and success in it. That's a coaching thing, though. The sports seems such a mystery when you start. Why does that kid look so fast? I always tell kids that what appears as speed is the result of simultaneous (big word) action. When it's attack time, you bring him to you as you go to him, at the same time. That's where wrestling speed comes from. Still, cursing a perfectly legitimate move, head steal, is nuts. I think the best throwers have good stances. Position is as essential to throwing, and defending throws, as it is to leg attack. We have a proud Greco tradition in WI; and I'd like to see that carry on. It's as close to a real fight as wrestling gets. As a jailer, I can attest that it is a life skill. 

It is a legitimate move. Is checking a legitimate part of hockey? Is tackling a legitimate  part of football? Is pitching a legitimate part of baseball?

Then why are all of these not part of youth levels of these sports? The reason is because it isn't developmentally appropriate and it is better for the kids to learn the basics/fundamentals. No one is saying the headlock should be an illegal move in middle school and high school. Just for a couple year so kids are getting there head wrenched on and quit.

I feel like this is an absolute no brainer for wrestling for at least k-1st grade. All it would take is wwf to make a ruling. There are so many benefits to this rule and no negatives.

So some fourth graders are wrestling and one hits a head throw. Do you ding him? If you do, that is a negative.  K-1. Great, they don't know what's going on, anyway. I'd also be fine with a beginner's bracket in upper El. levels that say no head steal. But, for kids who have been in, they're gonna have to face the sad fact the the throws are coming.

I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject.

As for reffing that 4th grader, it's pretty simple. Yes, it's a penalty, like locked hands. If he wants to head steal at 4th grade (and have it done to him) or lock hands then wrestle FS/GR.  Easy.  And I see no real issue (as I suggested) with body throws at 4th grade.
The strength of the neck of a 9th grader vs a 9 year old in relation to their body is very different. Grabbing a kid by the head and using the neck to hoist their entire body off the mat isn't a great idea. If nothing else, that should be paramount in consideration.

Doc, to your points I agree, but I honestly don't see the age of starting or how many competitions some kids go to as something that will change. Parents will do what they think is best. Clubs will do what will get the most membership and raise the most money. This is why I started this thread about rules IN competition to help with those other reasons why kids quit.  Other adults involved in other sports are able to comprehend these things and make modifications to help keep kids involved. Pitching rules won't prevent a dad from having his kid do 500 pitches a week, but it can at least limit during the games, and maybe, just maybe, that parent starts to connect the dots.

"I'm curious BigG, should we end counseling for kids? The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be.
That kind of sounds like your attitude on this subject. "

Ah, when in disagreement compare apples to guanabana. Brilliant.

I would say make it more like stalling. Kid throws, ref stops the match and gives a warning. Then, it's ding time. It's not the throw that's scary to kids; but the not breathing easily for 30+ seconds. Just wanted clarification. Thanks for making an iceberg out of a snowflake. Keep up the good work.

I'm curious, Handles II, should we put our children in bubble wrap to assure nobody gets hurt; ever.   Palease!

No one is saying that at all. I haven't seen one person on this forum/Earth say that a head throw is a fundamental part of wrestling. The head throw is a legitimate move that is used, but why have it legal at young ages. There is literally no benefit. You tell me kids who are throwers have good stances go watch a youth tournament and tell me the kids doing head throws have good stances. So why attack Handles for bringing up a way to help our sport and keep kids out for wrestling

because Handles attacked G's profession?

[bigG]

Sorry, I was just psychobabbling like Handles II, so he could see the kind of logic he's throwing at me.

I never attacked Handles at all. Least I hope I didn't come across that way. I agree with some of his takes; and feel I could find a happy medium with him. But comparing legalizing or illegalizing the head throw with counseling is like comparing bat guano to copier paper.

I told him I agreed with him and asked for elaboration. You and he made the "attack" part up. I don't feel he attacked me; just used the longest shot logic one could (maybe attacking my profession)find to reinforce his position and, failingly, attempting to reduce mine to (what he hoped would be ) absurdity. I don't care if youth wrestling has rules against the head throw. Just saying, sooner or later, the kid will have to take it and give it.  

Please quote my "attack" line.

"should we put our children in bubble wrap to assure nobody gets hurt"-g

If this was the  attack line, then I what did he do to me? I get it, you agree with him. That makes me the attacker. Got it.

It's not the thrower that sways me but the teachable moment for the throwee. Very important, to me, to learn to defend the throw. Unlike most wrestling moves, it's usable in the real world. Most military and paramilitary folks aren't going to be doing a lot of leg attacks , rasslin' style. I'll just send my throwers to GR tourneys. Wow, was that so hard?

[bigoil]

The headlock isn't the cause of lower numbers. Could it be a symptom, sure it is possible.

If you go to your local ABC school youth wrestling tourney, you aren't going to see many good headlocks. If you don't like your kids being taken down in a HL, teach them to level change and shoot.

If you are running into all kinds of HL at that age, you are wrestling way too much and in the wrong events.

[bigG]

I would take the importance of position over stance. Many might think they're synonymous; but stance is only a cog in the good position. Still, I don't know anything that teaches the power of good position than defending throws. I don't have any horses in the midget wrestling race, so you're not hurting me by making illegal an important part of the sport and early teachable moments. When my best wrestlers came up, it was their understanding that they're going to have to get thumped to be the thumper. I guess things have softened up and we're seeing lower numbers. It's a tough sport and kids are less tough as a whole. So, do we soften a bit more, or keep tough tradition alive? Both sides will have to give a little.

[ramjet]

Choking not the well excuted head with arm in is the issue. That's a ref issue not wrestling issue. I talked with my son who is essentially coaching many many youth wrestlers right now. He said the head steal is not that big of an issue as arm around the neck. He also told me they tech the defense and it stops those head stalkers and stealers very quickly.

[imnofish]

Again, incremental learning gives kids a chance to focus better on a few things and get them reasonably mastered, before dealing with new challenges.  Heck, leg riding is also inherent in wrestling.  Are we expecting kids to do that in lower elementary grades?  Patience really is a virtue.  It's sad that we adults sometimes seem to have less of it than the kids we are leading.  I do like the idea of dropping the kindergarten/preschool wrestling.  In fact, I'd like to see all sports drop everything below 5th grade.  Kids would be a lot happier and there would be much less attrition among participants.

[ramjet]

Again, incremental learning gives kids a chance to focus better on a few things and get them reasonably mastered, before dealing with new challenges.  Heck, leg riding is also inherent in wrestling.  Are we expecting kids to do that in lower elementary grades?  Patience really is a virtue.  It's sad that we adults sometimes seem to have less of it than the kids we are leading.  I do like the idea of dropping the kindergarten/preschool wrestling.  In fact, I'd like to see all sports drop everything below 5th grade.  Kids would be a lot happier and there would be much less attrition among participants.

Agree K-2 out of tournaments. But just teach the defense and emphasize fundamentals. And for goodness sake full size mats for 6th grade and up.