Rules to help keep kids enjoying and involved in wrestling?

[bigG]

Again, incremental learning gives kids a chance to focus better on a few things and get them reasonably mastered, before dealing with new challenges.  Heck, leg riding is also inherent in wrestling.  Are we expecting kids to do that in lower elementary grades?  Patience really is a virtue.  It's sad that we adults sometimes seem to have less of it than the kids we are leading.  I do like the idea of dropping the kindergarten/preschool wrestling.  In fact, I'd like to see all sports drop everything below 5th grade.  Kids would be a lot happier and there would be much less attrition among participants.

So, should we now say leg riding is a no-no until 6th grade? One kid is ready and the other isn't, so we have to change rules for the kid who isn't and hope our numbers go up. I'm not saying if it's appropriate or not for lower El. grades. I'm saying we teach wrestling and we teach legal moves. I can sure remember the first time a guy had two boots in on me, turned my nuts into a seesaw folcrum and powered me over. I say these are teachable moments; but if the club world wants the changes, they'll be made. 6th grade was the lowest I've ever coached. There's just no easy way to be a competitive wrestler. My sixth/ seventh graders who were first-timers also got their heads ripped off and had to learn. Taught them how to avoid those predicaments and they enjoyed wrestling much more as the aggressor. Reffing the tikes, though, I've noticed it's not the move that makes the kid cry; but having it happen in front of mom and dad. Even my own kid, when he was little, I'd watch him take a digger and not make a sound. Acted like I didn't see it. No tears. Kid takes a digger in front of mom, she gasps, here come the tears.

" The reality is that life is tough, there is nothing that anyone can or should do to make improvements, and the sooner kids realize that, the better off they will be."-Handles II

I've had to say this to a few kids through the years (save for the part between the first two commas)who were enabled to the point that anything that went wrong was someone else's fault, and that their laziness was really a disability in disguise. You cater the counseling to the needs of the kid. Their beneficence is paramount; and that means telling some ugly truths in a nice way. Sometimes, not in a nice way. Enabling adults is a major cause of anxiety, depression, etc. Sometimes you have to be the one who tells it like it is, sadly. Believe it or not, some parents just can't bring themselves to tell their kids that sometimes the road gets tough and we have to toughen with it. Not saying that's an appropriate chat for a 1st grader who got head tossed and is balling. But from elementary to middle school and middle school to high school, it's more common than you think.

So, I suppose you have some advice for me regarding counseling. What should I say to a kid who isn't doing the work but crying that he's failing algebra? Give me some of your magic, man.

Sadly, though, I have had to say:"ya know, I wish there was an easy way. There isn't. Hard work is never easy; that's why people get paid for hard work and not easy work. Algebra, wrestling, cow with a twisted stomach...no easy way." Sometimes, that is life.

Still don't know why you had to stir the turd with me, when I thought we had a nice compromise going. All or nothing for some folks. I think it's a red herring to the future numbers in wrestling; but I have been wrong before. If you have kids at those ages, I hope you get your way.

[bigG]

Why are kids quitting all sports in general?  The data that some researchers have gotten back show that it isn't fun anymore for the kid.  "I don't believe it."  "Kids are just lazy and not like they used to be 30-40 years ago."   "wrestling is hard work and kids just don't want to do it"  I see the previous quotes a lot.  Folks if you don't believe the answer kids are giving for why they are quitting than stop asking.  We need to start asking why does it stop being fun?  It's more important to Mom and Dad, no matter what they tell you?  Pecking order and specialization?  Narrow that down and FIX those core issues.  We have lots of ideas but seems like we never get t the FIX part.

You mean all the Tball, no tackling/checking isn't bringin' 'em in? My bottom line is I doubt eliminating head throws will amount to more kids staying out. K-1 is pretty young to be wrestling, period. But, I'm sure the occasional "mat ready" kid exists that young. The little guys in my school who are ready usually have the older brothers that pound on them, so they know what to expect. Some kids come to club because of dad, despite not being anywhere near ready for wrestling in general. It's just not like other sports when you can be casual and have fun. There's a reason you play basketball, football, etc. They are fun. When you put your foot on the line, playtime is over. Even though I love watching some of our youths grinning when they wrestle their best buddy. That's why we feature our little guys after duals with too many FFs. Announce like they're the Crusher, fans hooting'. Blast through the paper frame. Good time. Then when the match is over: "and the winner is....CASHTON!" Wrestling has a fun side; but it's no game, and we don't play.

[ramjet]

G I am with you!!!!!!!

[bigG]

I'm great with incremental growth as Fish alludes. Just saying, in the end, it's all wrestling. Glad you have a kid in the game. Maybe not as a kid; but as a kid coach. Hope he builds his own wrestling school. I'm just tired of hearing how the head steal is the bad guy and so many more kids would wrestle if the didn't get their head thrown. I just dunno.

But, like I said, I have no stock in the youth clubs, aside from loving wrestling and reffing those dinkers. Being a huge fan of upper body wrestling, and a fan of our sate's success in GR, I'd hate to see it edged out of folkstyle. It was so fun to see so many NCAA studs go throw. Hope I'm not being too selfish. I'm also a tiny bit defensive of the counseling thing. Not many k-12 counselors left. I believe your wife does the same, Ram. Sometimes you have to say what needs to be said for the betterment of the kid. Sometimes, when parents are absent, or part-time parents, or just can't do it, you have to be a part-time parent of that kid. Never would I say: "there's noting you can do." Like wrestling, there's always another option. Sometimes that means you gotta get to work on your weaknesses to open those options up. If there's anything wrestling has taught me, it's that there's always a way. Your drive v. quit decides whether you carry on, and carve out your own path, or stall, and be happy with losing. Don't know many happy with losing.

My apologies if I offended. Sure didn't want to attack anyone. Handles, you have good points, many of which I agree with. But when we disagree, I hope you leave my profession out of it, and stick to the wrestling. I love both. I come here for the wrestling part. If I need some help counseling, I'll email Michele R., or one of the many who share the plight. We're a tight group who back one another. People who'd give dang near anything to help kids succeed. That said, I have to find shoes for one kid and order glasses for another. (Ram, if you-know-who ever needs a great hookup to cheap glasses, PM me.)

[ramjet]

I hear you G. If it's worth doing its worth doing right. Fundamentals of wrestling is the key to success those who teach those and emphasize them seem to have success along that journey.

Agreed head steal is not the cause for participation numbers being low. The situation is far more complex than a single point issue. Like I said and will continue to say the fear, pain or issue with the head steal is not the move but a poorly executed head and throw and the kid gets on the neck and it causes a choke. To me that is correctable if the refs emphasize and stop the match if there is a choke.

My son found most of his wrestling success in Greco I am huge fan in fact will going down to the Dells to watch again this year. I suspect he will pass along allot of that experience and carry on the tradition as a coach. His friend and When ever a big throw happens the crowds always go OOOOOOO aaaaaaaaaa or resounding whaooooo. To me that's exciting.

Head steal is not the issue in youth wrestling and its correctable.

[imnofish]

Yeah, I have never thought that the headlock was causing fewer kids to wrestle.  I have never had a kid quit the sport because of any particular move...   not even the pretzel hold.   

[DocWrestling]

My impression...

All sports lose kids because they don't enjoy the sport, don't have fun, or don't succeed.

The difference I have noticed is that in wrestling we lose kids because parents don't want them to wrestle.  I have seen many kids that want to wrestle but parents won't allow it.  I relate this to they don't know the sport, scared of getting hurt, and still the stigma of boys rolling around together.  I have also seen kids that enjoyed the sport but were not allowed to continue by the parents.  This has been after bad tournament experiences, kids crying even though they really like the sport, kids getting hurt, finding out a skin infection was found on a wrestler, seeing other parents have their kids cut weight, etc.

I feel like the best thing USA Wrestling or the WWF could do is develop a marketing plan to parents. Kids cannot be involved if their parents don't allow it.  Somehow wrestling needs to embrace and promote fitness, hard work, and discipline, etc like people seem to gravitate to martial arts or the spirit of competition and being a part of a team where your size is never a limiting factor to being on the team.

The WWF and USA wrestling did try something this year with getting new kids involved so that is a step forward

[Handles II]

I'm great with incremental growth as Fish alludes. Just saying, in the end, it's all wrestling. Glad you have a kid in the game. Maybe not as a kid; but as a kid coach. Hope he builds his own wrestling school. I'm just tired of hearing how the head steal is the bad guy and so many more kids would wrestle if the didn't get their head thrown. I just dunno.

But, like I said, I have no stock in the youth clubs, aside from loving wrestling and reffing those dinkers. Being a huge fan of upper body wrestling, and a fan of our sate's success in GR, I'd hate to see it edged out of folkstyle. It was so fun to see so many NCAA studs go throw. Hope I'm not being too selfish. I'm also a tiny bit defensive of the counseling thing. Not many k-12 counselors left. I believe your wife does the same, Ram. Sometimes you have to say what needs to be said for the betterment of the kid. Sometimes, when parents are absent, or part-time parents, or just can't do it, you have to be a part-time parent of that kid. Never would I say: "there's noting you can do." Like wrestling, there's always another option. Sometimes that means you gotta get to work on your weaknesses to open those options up. If there's anything wrestling has taught me, it's that there's always a way. Your drive v. quit decides whether you carry on, and carve out your own path, or stall, and be happy with losing. Don't know many happy with losing.

My apologies if I offended. Sure didn't want to attack anyone. Handles, you have good points, many of which I agree with. But when we disagree, I hope you leave my profession out of it, and stick to the wrestling. I love both. I come here for the wrestling part. If I need some help counseling, I'll email Michele R., or one of the many who share the plight. We're a tight group who back one another. People who'd give dang near anything to help kids succeed. That said, I have to find shoes for one kid and order glasses for another. (Ram, if you-know-who ever needs a great hookup to cheap glasses, PM me.)

1st you took my quote out of context in your previous post. While yes, I did write those words, I was being sarcastic. In no way would I ever believe that because something is difficult, that telling kids there is nothing that can be done about it is the answer.  Counseling and Coaching have a lot in common. In both trying to protect the kids and keeping them on the right path is the name of the game. That was the point I was trying to make. It wasn't to rip on your profession.  Since you don't coach any youth wrestlers, perhaps your understanding of the sport at that level isn't where it needs to be? I too love throws, but I'm not letting my love of any move skew the actual value, or dangers of it. At the HS level we have made plenty of moves illegal because of their dangers. Some of those moves I love, and I've never had a wrestler injured because of them. Quite honestly I could care less if this is about the headsteal or another move. If it's something that is taking away from the fundamentals of the sport, then it should be looked at. If it is turning off kids from the sport, then it should be looked at.  

Behind hand/wrist/finger injuries, head/neck injuries are the most prevalent for 7-12 year olds, and a part of the body that as a coach as well as a parent, we should see as an area of the body to protect a bit more.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3027436/
As you can see, once into middle and high school, the neck is stronger and kids are better able to defend some moves like the headsteal as people have previously mentioned. Therefore neck injuries start to decrease, but shoulder injuries start to increase. Many of our newer rules for HS are to prevent shoulder injuries (as well as the head) such as arm-trapped mat returns.

If at the HS level we are taking measures to protect our wrestlers, then why not for the youth levels? Other sports are making changes to protect kids and keep them involved. They have made changes to help keep the fundamentals, the things that are really important later on, but need to be learned early, in play while eliminating things that can be learned at later stages of development.

I assume that the overall direction, discussions, and methods you as a counselor use at the HS level are different than those used at the primary grades? Why? Shouldn't it be exactly the same for all grades?  It may have been all good back when we had 16,000 wrestlers (many of whom didn't start until grades 7-9, and when not many clubs had k-2 kids, that we said "if you can't hack it, try another sport".  Now that we are below 8000 High School wrestlers, but with more youth wrestlers than ever before, perhaps we need to make changes, even to some aspects of the sport that we dearly love in order to breathe new life into it.

[bigG]

Head/neck is the scary zone for little guys. So what rules would you think could address that? I'd say eliminating throw is the straw man.  It's when either leg attacks elevate the kid and bring him down, or the kid goes backwards (double leg with force), and mat returns from referee's top position where I see more kids get hurt across the board. I only do a few youth tourneys a year; but , to my recollection, it's the double leg, hard return to mat and topman mat return that can really thump a head/neck, and shoulder, number 3 on your list. So no more mat returns from top and no doubles (because kids don't know how to fall backwards). Would we be okay with that? Or, once bottom gets to his feet, it's 1 escape, let him go. I also think bear hug is more dangerous to weaker necks than any throw. Head in chest, going straight back. Not the oppenents weight and yours are on the head and neck.

The biggest issue I recall from head steal is , like Ram's son pointed out, lack of finishing ability and crossing the wind pipe (a ref issue). Over under is a very safe throw, as is japanese whizzer.

I don't have any dinkers, so, if you want to look at the research you posted, think about what really causes head/neck and shoulder injuries. I think you would conclude , as I did, mat returns and double legs moving the defender backwards would be much more likely to cause those injuries than any throw. You apparently are more expert on little guys than me; would you agree with my hypothesis and resulting fixes. I guess have a ref stop the match if they see a double moving D man backwards. I'm trying to work with you in a respectful manner.

Sarcastic or not, you went there. I was trying to find common ground with you. I'm NOT being sarcastic about the mat return, double leg, bear hug thing. Watch enough wrestling and tell me where the injuries come from. Head steal ranks high for scary looking; but I have serious doubts of any neutral throw causing many of the injuries we'd all like to see go down.

I think you have shown you're skewed against throws.

I'm guessing number one on the shoulder injury thing would be half/power half, especially with legs in.

I want to protect our wrestlers, too; just think the arguments against throws are off and straw men; as I pondered it more and more. I think duck under, go behind, hard mat return is every bit as, if not more, dangerous than any throw that's folkstyle legal.

[wrastle63]

BigG do you think the head throw is helping our youth kids develop good fundamentals? Also is it a move that a youth wrestler has to know?

[imnofish]

I don't think the head throw is a problem; rather, I find the timing of kids' introduction to it impedes the development of some very critical basic skills, which I believe are best mastered first in most cases.  I have seen many kids who fall in love with the head throw early, have a lot of success until high school, then pay the price for not developing the foundational skills for a potent leg attack.  Again, it's an issue of instructional scope and sequence for many wrestlers that has me concerned.  How does this relate to kids enjoying the sport?  My contention is that early "headlock fever" increases the likelihood of their experiences becoming one dimensional.  Any activity is more fun when the capacity to keep learning new things is enhanced.  Focusing on stance, shooting, motion, setups, finishes, changing levels, etc. will not only enhance learning opportunities at an earlier age, but will also enable kids to be better throwers later on.  That is why I advocate taking the throws out of the equation for at least the first couple of years. 

[Handles II]

Head/neck is the scary zone for little guys. So what rules would you think could address that? I'd say eliminating throw is the straw man.  It's when either leg attacks elevate the kid and bring him down, or the kid goes backwards (double leg with force), and mat returns from referee's top position where I see more kids get hurt across the board. I only do a few youth tourneys a year; but , to my recollection, it's the double leg, hard return to mat and topman mat return that can really thump a head/neck, and shoulder, number 3 on your list. So no more mat returns from top and no doubles (because kids don't know how to fall backwards). Would we be okay with that? Or, once bottom gets to his feet, it's 1 escape, let him go. I also think bear hug is more dangerous to weaker necks than any throw. Head in chest, going straight back. Not the oppenents weight and yours are on the head and neck.

The biggest issue I recall from head steal is , like Ram's son pointed out, lack of finishing ability and crossing the wind pipe (a ref issue). Over under is a very safe throw, as is japanese whizzer.

I don't have any dinkers, so, if you want to look at the research you posted, think about what really causes head/neck and shoulder injuries. I think you would conclude , as I did, mat returns and double legs moving the defender backwards would be much more likely to cause those injuries than any throw. You apparently are more expert on little guys than me; would you agree with my hypothesis and resulting fixes. I guess have a ref stop the match if they see a double moving D man backwards. I'm trying to work with you in a respectful manner.

Sarcastic or not, you went there. I was trying to find common ground with you. I'm NOT being sarcastic about the mat return, double leg, bear hug thing. Watch enough wrestling and tell me where the injuries come from. Head steal ranks high for scary looking; but I have serious doubts of any neutral throw causing many of the injuries we'd all like to see go down.

I think you have shown you're skewed against throws.

I'm guessing number one on the shoulder injury thing would be half/power half, especially with legs in.

I want to protect our wrestlers, too; just think the arguments against throws are off and straw men; as I pondered it more and more. I think duck under, go behind, hard mat return is every bit as, if not more, dangerous than any throw that's folkstyle legal.

I would disagree with your assessment. A move that by design is grabbing around the neck and hoisting the entire body off the ground with it while twisting, is more apt to cause neck injuries, and a poorly done headsteal is also more likely to cause the defensive wrestler to land on the head with some if not all of the weight of his/her body coming downwards on top of the head/neck in a vertical position.  We've all seen it.

You are incorrect about my feelings about throws. My wrestlers would back me on that. I walked over and shook the hand of a competing wrestler (HS) this year when he hit a beautiful headsteal on one of my guys. I complemented him on it. I like throws. A lot.
I also like big hits in football, nasty curve balls, and high-speed collisions on the ice. But there are times when I can understand they aren't the best for the sport or for the participants. Even youth MMA (Pankration) has created rules that are different than for adults which includes throws. This is for safety, but ultimately it is designed to keep kids in the sport. "Pankration competition is educational in nature:                                                 Athletes graduate to use additional techniques as they get older, allowing focus and perfection of a limited skill set at each step of their development. All ages abide by the general rule of prohibiting any action likely to cause injury before reasonable chance of voluntarily submission. Learning and applying this comprehensive set of rules develops an exceptional level of self-control and empathy within these young athletes." https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/mixed-martial-arts-kids-why-pankration-well-suited-young-jon-frank

In over 20 years of coaching, I haven't seen us make any changes in the rules that are designed in this manner other than rules that have been implemented for HS wrestling. I guess I don't understand why not? I'm actually not aware of any other sport that doesn't call for modifying the rules for youth participants. Maybe there are some. Do they have approximately the highest youth participation and lowest HS participation in their history? That's my concern and why I started this thread.  

[wrastle63]

I don't think the head throw is a problem; rather, I find the timing of kids' introduction to it impedes the development of some very critical basic skills, which I believe are best mastered first in most cases.  I have seen many kids who fall in love with the head throw early, have a lot of success until high school, then pay the price for not developing the foundational skills for a potent leg attack.  Again, it's an issue of instructional scope and sequence for many wrestlers that has me concerned.  How does this relate to kids enjoying the sport?  My contention is that early "headlock fever" increases the likelihood of their experiences becoming one dimensional.  Any activity is more fun when the capacity to keep learning new things is enhanced.  Focusing on stance, shooting, motion, setups, finishes, changing levels, etc. will not only enhance learning opportunities at an earlier age, but will also enable kids to be better throwers later on.  That is why I advocate taking the throws out of the equation for at least the first couple of years. 

Exactly! No one is hating throws. This would be a way to create better fundamentals, less kids reliant on one move to win, and reduce the choking position.

[bigG]

I see very few youth wrestlers throw with the neck. I see tons of the sagging head steal. But, I have seen many more wrestlers gte head/neck hurt from a tough mat return. Especially little guys who don't react as quickly. But, I'll agree to disagree. Yes, I've seen kids hurt in the head steal; but nowhere near as many from mat returns. Hope you get your way. Next time you wanna debate about wrestling, it might help to talk about wrestling; and not some conjured up crap logic to compare the sport with my profession. Granted, there is crossover; but still insulting.

The head steal is not by design to grab around the neck. Have you ever used the move? You hook the under part of the chin with your pincher (crotch of the elbow) and you either sag, or turn your hips in and come down with the pressure on the shoulder blades (in wrestling, you win when you pin...shoulder blades down). If the throwee turns away, he can get his neck crossed and choke. Time for the ref to stop it and (teachable moment) the thrower has to get him to turn back in by getting his near elbow to his ear.

Like I said, I'm a compromise kind of guy.

Never said any of you hated throws. Just think it's the straw man in this argument. Up to the ref to monitor the "choking position."

Hope it all passes, so our sport becomes so much better than it's current, floundering, state.

63, there is no move a wrestler HAS to know. Position is what a wrestler has to know. Defending a head steel is something any decent wrestler HAS to know, though. Am I attacking you now?

Headsteal teaches a kid how to: 1. defend the move, 2. get off to the side and lift(good position) 3. finish and turn the head steal attempt into points.

Never implied "tough crap, diss iz part uh duh sport, kid." More like, "this is the easiest thing to defend and turn into points. Man, I can wait to see you flip the script on this guy."

Have it your way, though. I just think coaches have heard enough people snivel about it, so they think it's gonna help to get rid of it for a few years of youth wrestling. Fine with me. I let my side be known.

[ramjet]

I will ad this those kids who practice throws also know how to "roll with the throw" less likey to be injured from one.

I think the declining numbers or "fun" factor are created by the culture in "the room" and on "the mat" and by those who run those rooms. I have seen the Club my son works at take those kids to pool and have an absolute riot and so much fun it's crazy to watch. They make fun in the practice room. They make something that kids want to join with many activities. They show kids how to be successful and how to loose with dignity. The adults understand that poor behaviour is not tolerated that wrestling is not sprint it is journey with hills and pot holes.