I think it's time...

[wrastle63]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watch 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

Wisconsin doesn't really have a MS system. Some areas do conference wrestling and duals and some have larger multi meets. There is no unified system.

[MNbadger]

I was referring to the fact I agreed with you and that Ramjet took the opportunity to make a personal jab at me.  Ramjet thinks forfeits should be less than six points.  I was pointing out the same thing you are.

Correct, but Ramjet believes the opposite is so.

Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.

MNbadger,
What does Ram have to do with my statement?
Times change and the WIAA rules changed a couple of years ago that now allow 7&8th graders to practice with VArsity and JV, when Ram's son came through a few years ago that was prohibited.

[MarkK]

A bit touchy in here.    Wow

[hornbuckleb]

Here is an obscure way of thinking, or is it.  Remember when there was no Tech Fall?

Wrestling USA – March 1, 1980 Vol.XV-No.8 (Formerly Scholastic Wrestling News)
A FULL VALUE POINT SYSTEM
By Joe Welder
West Fargo High School
WEST FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA

A full value point system in the scoring of wrestling dual meets merits serious consideration. Each team should receive the points earned on the mat by their numbers. Whatever is scored on the mat should be awarded to the team.  Before a full value point system can work, a few changes in our present system would have to occur to insure that a runaway match could not be possible by one individual. As the system of scoring is now each change of position has a counter scoring position with the exception of the near fall. For example a takedown expert could not have a runaway match by scoring only takedowns. His opponent must first score at least one or two escapes before he can be taken down again.  In order to run the score in reversals, his opponent must also score reversals. They break even. The only runaway match would occur in the scoring of near falls.  Here a point should be awarded to the defensive wrestler for escaping to a controlled position. In this manner, a runaway match would be minimized. The wrestler escaping to a controlled position should earn a point for his effort.

Another long overdue change would be to terminate a match after a difference of ten points has been reached. This would eliminate match scores like 33-7, 25-4 (actual scores this year) to the embarrassment of the wrestler and his team. This idea is not new, Baseball, for example, has a ten run rule.

An extra four points would be awarded for a pin. These would be the highest points scored on the mat.  Some might think it de-emphasizes the pin, the ultimate goal of wrestling. In the present day system, the difference from a superior decision to a pin is only one point.

In summary, the point system would be as follows:

Takedown (2 points)
Reversal (2 points)
Near Fall (2 or 3 points)
Escape to Neutral Position (1 point)
Escape to Control Position (1 point)
Penalties (1 point)
Pin (4 points)
Termination of match after difference of 10 points.

Visualize the impact this would have on the present style of wrestling. The emphasis would shift from control wrestling, stalling, to the scoring of points. The more points scored, the higher the team score. The end result of this point system would be more action, less control.

Imagine how much action two heavy weights could create if the team score was only five or six points apart? Or how about the difference in coaching philosophies?  It is much easier to tell a kid to go in and score a point for the team instead of telling him to stall his way for six minutes when wrestling someone better.  Wouldn't that same kid hold his head higher the next day when asked how he did by his classmates after he scored a point or two for his team instead of scoring zero points all year as some less fortunate wrestlers do under the present system?
This new system could keep the beginning wrestler from quiting the program.  By developing one move that he feels would score for his team, he would have an incentive to stay involved.  Fans come to see action. They love to see points being added to a team's score.  Imagine the impact it would have on them. Give them dull matches and they will stay away. They're very important to your program. Ask some of the universities who have dropped the program. The full value point system would be easier to score than the existing dual system.  A full value point system is the answer to apathy and the declining enrollment in wrestling.

[Barou]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

[wrastle63]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

[Ghetto]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

[wrastle63]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

Agreed I think most MS duals head to head are pointless though. I like having multis with other teams that way each kid can get 2-3 matches against equal opponents. Instead of well we only have 1 kid at 120 guess we will wrestle.

[padre]

Our MS system must be seriously flawed if Freshman can't wrestle when we have neighboring states with MS kids winning HS state. As a freshman you should be ready to wrestle at your weight class, I just watched 8th graders at Northern Plains compete and win against some of our best high school kids.
A better MS program or no MS program will help solve some of the FF issues.
If you have 7th and 8th grade kids at 105 or bigger they need to practice in that Varsity room to help get them ready. It's being done in our neighboring state with much better results then WI is getting.

That makes sense but our HS coaches in Wisconsin either don't believe in junior high inclusion or simply don't care.  Every time it's brought up we find out that it doesn't even get presented to the WIAA.  I guess if our coaches don't care, probably can't blame the WIAA for not caring either.

Agreed. I don't think it has to be JHI. I think it could be as simple as making the MS system more uniform across the state so that it is more successful for everyone.

A strong middle school program is key. Totally agree. When our middle school program was in a good conference with some stability, we were stronger. We got switched into a new conference and our kids are not as prepared.

Having weights classes and structure to duals is huge for kids and creates a sense of team when you have a team score. Just running kids out there by matchups isn't quite the same.

Also, our old conference had a varsity and a JV. If you knew your kid was going to get smashed, you could get him a JV match that might be more competitive. There is such a disparity in athleticism and muscle at the middle school that it's just dumb to match them up only by weight.

Agreed I think most MS duals head to head are pointless though. I like having multis with other teams that way each kid can get 2-3 matches against equal opponents. Instead of well we only have 1 kid at 120 guess we will wrestle.

I agree....give up a few pounds to get someone of your experience.  While duals are fun many times there are tons of pins and kids not getting the most out of their Tuesday night.  I believe there is a time and place for middle school duals but not during the week when we could get kids 3 matches against common experienced opponents.

This is where the problem is with Middle School wrestling and trying to have everyone on the same page.  It's just not possible because too many are not on the same page.

Main issues with not being able to mainstream middle school wrestling....

1.  The largest issue is time of season.  Some go early and some go late....for schools to become uniform many would have to change their basketball season time which Im sure they don't want to do.

2.  Some coaches like duals, some like extra matches, some only want one match and others would like four.  Its not always easy to get coaches to come to a common ground.

3.  What constitutes junior high?  Some are 5-8th while others are 6-8th and 7th-8th.  I'm an advocate of having them get these free matches in the earlier the better.  My fifth graders are getting 25 matches extra a year that they would not otherwise get....but there will be argument against it also.

Could there be a nice alignment for junior high?  Yes.  Will there be?  No.  Too many variables out there.

We are very fortunate to be in a great conference with great coaches that work together to come up with a common goal of whats best for the kids.  Fifth graders are allowed to wrestle, but some schools go 6th-8th...depending on what their administration says.  We are lucky to have a school that runs a great conference tournament with probably 500 plus kids this coming year and I think the teams will see improvement because of the changes we have made.

[Troy Grindle]

I used to be a big supporter of reducing the number of weight classes but now not so much.  When I look back on our conference over the past 10 years there has been a lot of change on the top and bottom of our conference.  Teams that were once the top teams in the conference and the talent gap seemed insurmountable became beatable over time.  The ebb and flow of a program changes.  Coaching staff changes, parent involvement changes and it can completely change your program.  For better or worse.

As a whole the state median number is probably 12 weight classes, at least that is what the data for regionals seems to point to that Ghetto provides.  But a program that is working their tail off to build their program shouldn't be penalized just because other teams don't want to work as hard at recruiting, or off season wrestling, or building their youth numbers.  No I am not saying that coaches aren't trying to build their programs or aren't working hard.  But do they have enough people on board sharing their vision? 

Then where do you stop for weight classes?  Why not 15 weight classes or 17 weight classes?  I don't have a reason why not more weight classes other than it would seem like an over kill at anything more than 14.

The top teams change in the conference, region and state.  Usually not over a year or two but gradually they will change.  If your team isn't where you want it to be go out and recruit parents to help you build it up and to get their kids involved.  If you ask enough people you will find people that will get on board.  You just have to make it your top priority.  If you have been involved in wrestling for 10 years or more or wrestled in high school and now are coming back around in it with your child, think back to the teams that were great 10-20 years ago and think who are the great teams now.  None of them are really the same.  Some teams have great tradition and always have a good team but they don't always win.

I have been fortunate to have been a part of two solid programs that have had some great years and some not as great years.  What made the difference in the great years were the parents putting in the time when the kids were younger and getting them to practice, camps, tournaments etc.  They came into high school more advanced and ready to wrestle at a varsity level sooner.  You have to get the kids in when they are young and build a family atmosphere so they don't want to do anything else.  Make it so they would rather hang out with their wrestling family and do freestyle and greco instead of joining lacrosse or baseball.  I coach wrestling at Waunakee and my son wrestles for Waunakee and also plays football for Waunakee.  In Waunakee everything is about football.  We had a football parent/player meeting Sunday night and Coach Rice kept using the same word over and over again.  Commitment.  Think about how much are you committing to your program.  Be honest with yourself and really think about it.  There is no right or wrong answer.  People have different priorities in life and winning a state team championship usually isn't one of them.

Reducing weight classes won't get more kids out for wrestling.  Neither will co-oping teams.  If your team is struggling for numbers ride out the storm because time will change program leaders, administration, coaches and students in a school.  Once you co-op a team it is almost impossible to get a school to stand on its own again.

[Ghetto]

I used to be a big supporter of reducing the number of weight classes but now not so much.  When I look back on our conference over the past 10 years there has been a lot of change on the top and bottom of our conference.  Teams that were once the top teams in the conference and the talent gap seemed insurmountable became beatable over time.  The ebb and flow of a program changes.  Coaching staff changes, parent involvement changes and it can completely change your program.  For better or worse.

Totally agree. There is ebb and flow to programs regardless of where they are.

As a whole the state median number is probably 12 weight classes, at least that is what the data for regionals seems to point to that Ghetto provides.  But a program that is working their tail off to build their program shouldn't be penalized just because other teams don't want to work as hard at recruiting, or off season wrestling, or building their youth numbers.  No I am not saying that coaches aren't trying to build their programs or aren't working hard.  But do they have enough people on board sharing their vision? 

But you ARE saying that. You just did. You made the comparison between teams working their tail off and others. That perception is the one I've been fighting for years. The assumption is always that teams that struggle for numbers aren't trying.

Then where do you stop for weight classes?  Why not 15 weight classes or 17 weight classes?  I don't have a reason why not more weight classes other than it would seem like an over kill at anything more than 14.

If we can't fill 14, adding more would make little sense.

The top teams change in the conference, region and state.  Usually not over a year or two but gradually they will change.  If your team isn't where you want it to be go out and recruit parents to help you build it up and to get their kids involved.  If you ask enough people you will find people that will get on board.  You just have to make it your top priority.  If you have been involved in wrestling for 10 years or more or wrestled in high school and now are coming back around in it with your child, think back to the teams that were great 10-20 years ago and think who are the great teams now.  None of them are really the same.  Some teams have great tradition and always have a good team but they don't always win.

I completely agree that bringing the community in will help build a program.

I have been fortunate to have been a part of two solid programs that have had some great years and some not as great years.  What made the difference in the great years were the parents putting in the time when the kids were younger and getting them to practice, camps, tournaments etc.  They came into high school more advanced and ready to wrestle at a varsity level sooner.  You have to get the kids in when they are young and build a family atmosphere so they don't want to do anything else.  Make it so they would rather hang out with their wrestling family and do freestyle and greco instead of joining lacrosse or baseball.  I coach wrestling at Waunakee and my son wrestles for Waunakee and also plays football for Waunakee.  In Waunakee everything is about football.  We had a football parent/player meeting Sunday night and Coach Rice kept using the same word over and over again.  Commitment.  Think about how much are you committing to your program.  Be honest with yourself and really think about it.  There is no right or wrong answer.  People have different priorities in life and winning a state team championship usually isn't one of them.

Reducing weight classes won't get more kids out for wrestling.  Neither will co-oping teams.  If your team is struggling for numbers ride out the storm because time will change program leaders, administration, coaches and students in a school.  Once you co-op a team it is almost impossible to get a school to stand on its own again.

It is my belief that success breeds success. I also believe that if we had closer duals at home in front of families and friends, it would be easier to build long term. Here's what we DO know. Numbers are down. We've lost a ton of kids within the last five years. Is the answer to continue what we are doing and hope?

I'm hopeful that nationwide we will change. I know we as a state we won't set the trend.

[imnofish]

Our program has recently experienced a revival because our numbers have improved.  The intentional revision of our youth and middle school programs have been a big part of that.  Not only do we now fill all weight classes on our high school team, but those kids also enter high school with an attitude that results in greater team unity and improved practice productivity.  Not only has this benefited those whom have been through all program levels; it also encourages others to give wrestling a try and helps them progress quickly.  Last year, we had two rookies advance to Sectionals, one of whom was a conference champ.  I believe that the expanded number of weight classes increases opportunities, but full benefit of those opportunities depends upon other systemic factors that coaches must nurture.  Just like my grandpa used to say; It's not what you have, but what you do with what you have.

[Coach V]

Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

[Barou]

Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

[wrastle63]

Anyone that thinks the WWF does not do what's best for kids is mistaken. If you don't agree with it, get involved. Bottom line, we all have to work within the systems and rules we have. From there we have to continually make improvements. Change is tough with so many strong minded people. Other states wish they had the Wisconsin system.

Honest questions - is it safe to assume that the majority of coaches don't believe JHI is in the best interest of the kids?  Or is JHI not even a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

I don't think JHI inclusion is a necessity. For some kids they could for sure handle varsity wrestling but then you have a bunch that couldn't.  I feel like we are alright without JHI, but would like there to be a better more consistent MS season across the state.