I think it's time...

[bigoil]

Yes Big Oil but it is similar to an individual tournament not a dual.

No it is just like a dual for those in the top two spots. Teams and fans of the better teams know exactly what is at stake. The 4*400 is the HWT match and whether their team is 1st or 5th, they are screaming to beat the other school for the "dual" points.

[MNbadger]

We will have to disagree then.  A track meet is much more similar to an individual tournament.  The different events are run separately just like having the rounds by weight in a wrestling tournament.  You are not watching one competitor from two schools at one time at a track meet like you do in a wrestling dual.  I am of the opinion that the emphasis on duals simply discourages wrestlers and are an impediment to developing a program.  It gets pretty old going to duals all season and you are forfeiting four weights. 
As far as Ramjet sugesting just counting matches wrestled, that will just encourage forfeits.  If I am a coach and obssessed with winning the dual (as one should be in this system) I will forfeit every weight except the one in which I have the state champion (yes, an exaggeration but you get the point).
Lastly, do you really see tons of "casual fans" at ANY (dual or individual) wrestling venue?  The same goes for nearly any high school sport especially.  The same is true for college wrestling. 

[MNbadger]

And another thing......... It seems we can't keep from contradicting ourselves constantly.
On this board a coach is inappropriate term if he does and inappropriate term if he doesn't.  A coach will get hammered if they forfeit a weight no matter if it is strategy to win a dual (which you are all obssessed with doing).  Then in the next breath everyone is worried that inexperienced wrestlers will get "thrown to the dogs" before they are ready.

[ramjet]

As much as I would love to say we can have tremendous impact on participation I am realist and know that is not 100% true. So to the topic at hand and that is that Ghetto has submitted a great deal of data supporting his postion. the reason is FF that's what again I say eliminate FF. Let teams compete head to head even if they have three wrestlers to do so. Winner of the dual meet is the winner of the matches. It is important that teams within a conference get the opportunity to compete head to head in matches wrestled. It seems that with FF points we are in that participation trophy for just showing up.

Duals are important.
Individual accomplishment is important.

[MNbadger]

GYP, my points are just related to school sponsored wrestling.

At the national level Dual tournaments are the fastest growing tournaments in the nation. We are one of the only states in the Midwest that doesn't send a state dual team to GR/FS Nationals. Dual events encourage more scoring and more action, I think it's much more fan friendly.
If we ran more dual style events at much younger ages I know we would grow our numbers.
Perks
Hanging with buddy's
More parents cheering
No parents in the corners
Teaching kids to score
Win or lose as a team, eliminating some of the pressure.
We don't need to cut weight classes, we need to fix or eliminate our MS system.

[Ghetto]

The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

[Barou]

The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

I agree Ghetto.  Dual meets are absolutely awesome if they aren't littered with FF's.  A lot of posters talk about all the positive aspects of dual meets and how great they are for parents, fans, coaches, etc. which is all true BUT when duals are over before they start or stacked with FF's then they become detrimental to the health of our sport.  Maybe I'm not paying enough attention to the rest of the state but in my area where I look at standings pretty regularly for the Coulee, MVC, Dairyland, and the Scenic Bluffs conferences, there might be 4 schools that have a full line-up the majority of the time.  A Holmen/Sparta dual is competitive and draws a lot of interest.  Maybe West Salem/Bangor vs Viroqua?  Or GET/MM vs WS/B?  Other than that, lots and lots of FF's. 

[Ghetto]

Looked through all of the 2016 D1 regionals today. Thought I would look at the kids with .200 winning percentage going into regionals and see what their 2017 would look like.

55 kids wrestled regionals with a .200 winning percentage or less (10 matches or more).
26 of of those 55 did not body fat test in 2017 (47%)
Of the 29 who did wrestle the next year, 13 did not wrestle in the regional.

So as a coach, why do I continually run that kid out there to take loss after loss, if I know that he has a 50% of chance of never coming back out, or a 70% chance of not wrestling in the regional the following year? Is it a need to fill weights?

Just food for thought.

[littleguy301]

At the national level Dual tournaments are the fastest growing tournaments in the nation. We are one of the only states in the Midwest that doesn't send a state dual team to GR/FS Nationals. Dual events encourage more scoring and more action, I think it's much more fan friendly.
If we ran more dual style events at much younger ages I know we would grow our numbers.
Perks
Hanging with buddy's
More parents cheering
No parents in the corners
Teaching kids to score
Win or lose as a team, eliminating some of the pressure.
We don't need to cut weight classes, we need to fix or eliminate our MS system.

having youth duals is way for fun for the kids or I should say at least in my area. All the reasons mentioned and having fun is the key to growing the kids interest,

[MarkK]

The reason for reducing weights in my opinion is strictly for duals. It would certainly cut down on the time for individual tournaments as well, which could have a positive effect.

Duals are the opportunity to create excitement within the school population. Very few kids are coming to a tournament to watch their buddies. If a kid thinks a dual is exciting, they may be inclined to give wrestling a shot.

Another track analogy.  I like the idea of reducing weights for duals.   If that would actually work.  In track a lot of invites only allow 3 people in an event.  Let's say shot put.  They get 3 entries.  But often in quads and other events they can enter as many as they want.    I could see a scenario where the number of matches were 10 in a dual and 14 for tournaments.   I could also see a local quad or triangular where they allow all that could qualify from a team.  I see teams the 1,2,3 in a track meet why not wrestling?

[MNbadger]

So it seems in a way you are promoting FEWER weights here right Ramjet?
If forfeits are less, coaches will opt not to wrestle individuals even more often.
It also punishes the coach who manages to get kids out for the sport.
This brings us back to contradicting ourselves.......... A coach is an expletive if he does and an expletive if he doesn't.  He is told he is not a good coach if he can't get kids out, then when he does, you want to punish him by not counting his wrestlers.........hmmmmmm.
This idea would encourage me to just wrestle one match for the dual using my returning state champion at 145 for instance, knowing I can win that one individual dual. 

So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

[ramjet]

So it seems in a way you are promoting FEWER weights here right Ramjet?
If forfeits are less, coaches will opt not to wrestle individuals even more often.
It also punishes the coach who manages to get kids out for the sport.
This brings us back to contradicting ourselves.......... A coach is an expletive if he does and an expletive if he doesn't.  He is told he is not a good coach if he can't get kids out, then when he does, you want to punish him by not counting his wrestlers.........hmmmmmm.
This idea would encourage me to just wrestle one match for the dual using my returning state champion at 145 for instance, knowing I can win that one individual dual. 

So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

This your narrow minded way if thinking. But what's new.

[MNbadger]

Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

[wrastle63]

Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.

[MNbadger]

Correct, but Ramjet believes the opposite is so.

Ramjet, there is a reason that forfeits are 6 points, the same as the maximum you can get via securing a fall over your opponent.  You think that making a forfeit less will equal less of them.  I certainly do not see that happening but thanks for the dig anyway!

Making a forfeit less will make for more forfeits its common sense. Why send out your 10-30 freshman to and 30-10 senior if you give up less points for a forfeit.