I think it's time...

[maggie]

I'm with the Litteguy o this !    Good call     

[foose4]

I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

[Barou]

I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Can't one still be on a TEAM without dual participation?

[aarons23]

I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Plus 1000....at the coaches convention the three team state champs coaches talked about program building and the one common denominator in all three was stressing team first. 

[npope]

I understand the interest in the team thing, but my point is that all of this concern about weight classes and forfeits is a direct result of the refusal to let go of the team format. So maybe taking a step back and contemplating the bigger picture would lead to some solutions to the problem that is the topic of the thread. Simply refusing to put possible options on the table for consideration just because "that's what we like" isn't a "winning" approach to a sticky problem; some things may have to be sacrificed for the greater goal.

[DocWrestling]

In 2011-12, 8946 kids body fat tested. In 2016-17 there were 7737 kids tested. 1209 less kids body fatted this year compared to 2011-12.

That is a significant 13.5% drop in 5 years.  That is the equivalent percentage of dropping 2 weight classes.

[aarons23]

In 2011-12, 8946 kids body fat tested. In 2016-17 there were 7737 kids tested. 1209 less kids body fatted this year compared to 2011-12.

That is a significant 13.5% drop in 5 years.  That is the equivalent percentage of dropping 2 weight classes.

Please compare all sports and you will see the same decline.  In many other states wrestling is increasing....they did not accomplish that by reducing weight classes and increase weight cutting.

[Barou]

I absolutely agree Nat.  The dual-crazy mentality is a big part of the problem. We had years where we won nearly all our duals and even then I preferred individual tournaments. Personal preference to be sure but it is an issue in regard to the subject at hand.

Why not de-value the whole idea of duals; make them multi-team jamborees, or something like that. All of this angst and pulling of hair is based on one simple fact - that we think there has to be a winner in a dual format. Get rid of that format and much of the problem goes away. Yes, yes, some schools love duals (usually those that will win the dual), but to solve this problem you have to get outside the box. Maybe the box is the emphasis we place on duals?

If you take away duals, the overall participation will go down in wrestling.   Not all wrestlers are there for individual accolades, they want to be on a TEAM.

Plus 1000....at the coaches convention the three team state champs coaches talked about program building and the one common denominator in all three was stressing team first. 

And you will hear the same thing from every coach in every sport.  No coach is ever going to come out and say "ya we decided to abandon the team concept and focus on individual accomplishments". 

The issue isn't the "team" concept it is the format.  Maybe reducing weight classes isn't the answer but if we can get a consensus that our current dual format is broken, maybe we can get legitimate suggestions on how to improve it.  I can honestly say that when I look at dual meet results in the paper that I am shocked when there is a dual meet with no forfeits.  I think last year there might have been 2 or 3 (didn't check them all).  It makes our sport look poor.  Friends of mine that know I'm a "wrestling guy" have laughed about duals that had 2 matches and were over in 15 minutes.

[MNbadger]

People go to track meets and there isn't even usually a team score visible.  The team results get posted but basically it is similar to wrestling in that it is primarily an individual sport with a team component.

[npope]

The club concept used in Europe for wrestling would seem to rely far more on the tournament format than duals (not saying there aren't some duals, but it isn't the primary competition format). While I know that notion is a bit foreign (no pun intended) to most of us, if it solves this current dual format problem then it should at least be on the table. Adapt or die.

[bigoil]

People go to track meets and there isn't even usually a team score visible.  The team results get posted but basically it is similar to wrestling in that it is primarily an individual sport with a team component.

At any Track invitational team scores are definitely noted along with individual results. At Triangular/Quads, you often don't hear individual or team scores but at some you hear both.

[MNbadger]

Yes Big Oil but it is similar to an individual tournament not a dual.

[ramjet]

So what I was saying does promote team it allows those with numbers issues to compete by throwing out the points from FF. It will also encourage and promote wrestling matches where you cou,d or can move a wrestler up to get that match because that is the only way you get the points is to wrestle the match and win the match.

[DocWrestling]

It is just apparent to me that I have a different view of wrestling than others.

The duals are the best part of wrestling.  They are the only events that parents understand or students and families attend.

I went through a program that everything was about the team and the dual.  Every wrestler contributed to the victory even if they only gave up a tech fall and did not get pinned and everyone on the team knew how important that was.  Kind of like the guy that just keeps setting screens on the basketball court

Duals give a wrestler so many ways to contribute and two ways to win.  Even the guys on the bench not wrestling feel part of the team.

The most successful programs emphasize the duals.

Tournaments are for the diehard fans and best individual wrestlers.  Everyone else just sees them as long Saturdays focused on nothing more than a few wrestlers that make it to the end.  Heck even the coaches cannot be present for every match.  It is truly individual.

You take away duals and I also think you would lose a ton of wrestlers.  Everyone except for the best wrestlers seem to prefer dual tourneys.

[Jimmy]

Excellent post doc, one point I will ? Tho. I know many multiple time state champs who would trade for a team title. The best wrestlers want team titles too.