WIAA and possible proposed changes

[Barou]

Running Friday/Saturday sectionals does not cost more in travel.  It is still 2 days just like it would be traveling two consecutive Saturdays.

Having conference, regionals, sectionals, state, team state spread over 5 weekends is idiotic and does not help the sport's numbers.  The whole thing can be done in 3 weekends!  Minnesota has it right in time commitment and format.  The WIAA has nothing but problems with conferences.  Going to sections would make it easier.

The only teams with possible included expense might be teams up North that have more travel and it might be better to stay over night.  But that might be offset some from travel to and from twice like they do now.  A small percentage of teams would be affected.

Could be forced into changes if the officials shortage continues.

Perfectly stated! As a guy who has experienced both. Wiaa can learn a lot from the mshsl on their wrestling state tournament series.

[Kyle]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

[littleguy301]

Running Friday/Saturday sectionals does not cost more in travel.  It is still 2 days just like it would be traveling two consecutive Saturdays.

Having conference, regionals, sectionals, state, team state spread over 5 weekends is idiotic and does not help the sport's numbers.  The whole thing can be done in 3 weekends!  Minnesota has it right in time commitment and format.  The WIAA has nothing but problems with conferences.  Going to sections would make it easier.

The only teams with possible included expense might be teams up North that have more travel and it might be better to stay over night.  But that might be offset some from travel to and from twice like they do now.  A small percentage of teams would be affected.

Could be forced into changes if the officials shortage continues.

Perfectly stated! As a guy who has experienced both. Wiaa can learn a lot from the mshsl on their wrestling state tournament series.

MN does some good things with their state series. I have been able to take in some MN state series and I believe they are on to something their and it seems to work.

[wrastle63]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

In his idea every wrestler gets a shot, but it gets rid of Regionals with 1 or 2 kids in a bracket. He's stated he knows it's not perfect but it's better than what we have. There really isn't a con that I can see to combining two regionals.

[bigG]

Yes, but if coaches are to vote for this you'll have to convince them of the pros; not lack of cons. You don't make changes on the basis it being no worse than before.

This is an idea with potential who MNBadger was talking about years ago. Maybe it's time.

[DocWrestling]

Honestly the WIAA, the AD's, the coaches, the parents, and the wrestlers need to start thinking about what is better for the "SPORT" and have less focus on how things affect them on a local individual basis.  Pretty soon there are going to be even fewer teams to wrestle and fewer practice partners in the rooms.

The voices that dominate the discussion seem to be those that are the best and most dedicated to the sport and there honestly is not a lot wrong with that but they are only probably 20% of wrestlers and teams.

The numbers issues lie in the other 80%.  Maybe some changes are needed to benefit the other 80% and clubs will pick up for what is lost to those top 20%.

I think that the 80% thinks this pretty consistently across the state
1) Season is long and/or takes up to many Saturdays.  Decreasing state tournament series to 3 weekends and creating more weeknight events I think would help greatly.  Coaches need to be more honest about what is best for their program at that time in terms of their schedule.
2) This 80% are seasonal wrestlers and like being part of a team.  More team events and duals would help vs. long Saturdays in gyms where they spend 99% of their time sitting in a bleacher.  Teams include kids and keep kids and this is why duals need to be improved.
3) What are the goals for this 80% that are on JV or are average varsity wrestlers?  Wrestling through all these weekends in February after they are done wrestling is not a positive.  Maybe we need to develop more JV events in February.  Maybe only the top kids wrestle in "regionals" and others wrestle in a silver division.  We need more opportunities for average wrestlers to compete against average wrestlers leading to chances for them to actually get on a podium rather than going 0-2 or 1-2 or even 2-2, etc.  Scrambles try to do this to some point which is a good thing. 

[ramjet]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

Sorry but I did not call you a Liberal I said it was a liberal mind set there is a difference. Sorry if you felt offended.

No but this idea its a great accomplishment by walking to the middle of the mat and get to to go Sectional just for showing up is as much as an accomplishment as a wrestler battling three matches and qualifying?

"Fun" is that what you think the experience is all about? (Sure thats part of it.)

I think wrestling is so much more than that.

The Regional structure needs to improve its stinks.

I do not think cutting weights is the answer but improving the competition and quality and they will come.

What gets a crowd excited about wrestling? A competitive dual meet between top flight programs..........Why? Competition and quality wrestling.

This is a problem that needs a fix.

[MNbadger]

No, It is not a "liberal mindset" (again, something I challenge you to define, you can't) either.  You need to keep politics (actually your imagined idea of politics) out of this and other wrestling discussions.  Your paranoia and anger get in the way of the discussion rather than help it. 

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

Sorry but I did not call you a Liberal I said it was a liberal mind set there is a difference. Sorry if you felt offended.

No but this idea its a great accomplishment by walking to the middle of the mat and get to to go Sectional just for showing up is as much as an accomplishment as a wrestler battling three matches and qualifying?

"Fun" is that what you think the experience is all about? (Sure thats part of it.)

I think wrestling is so much more than that.

The Regional structure needs to improve its stinks.

I do not think cutting weights is the answer but improving the competition and quality and they will come.

What gets a crowd excited about wrestling? A competitive dual meet between top flight programs..........Why? Competition and quality wrestling.

This is a problem that needs a fix.

[ramjet]

No, It is not a "liberal mindset" (again, something I challenge you to define, you can't) either.  You need to keep politics (actually your imagined idea of politics) out of this and other wrestling discussions.  Your paranoia and anger get in the way of the discussion rather than help it. 

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

Sorry but I did not call you a Liberal I said it was a liberal mind set there is a difference. Sorry if you felt offended.

No but this idea its a great accomplishment by walking to the middle of the mat and get to to go Sectional just for showing up is as much as an accomplishment as a wrestler battling three matches and qualifying?

"Fun" is that what you think the experience is all about? (Sure thats part of it.)

I think wrestling is so much more than that.

The Regional structure needs to improve its stinks.

I do not think cutting weights is the answer but improving the competition and quality and they will come.

What gets a crowd excited about wrestling? A competitive dual meet between top flight programs..........Why? Competition and quality wrestling.

This is a problem that needs a fix.

I put reasonable proposal and solution on the table you just want us to be MN.

[MNbadger]

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

[wrastle63]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

[ramjet]

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

Absolutely not, my suggestions where simple and could be easily implemented and address the issue.  Where as your and HandlesII proposals are huge wholesale changes that would require a tremendous amount of cost and change and might actually reduce opportunity and make things difficult with overnight travel and two day tournaments. My issue with you and HandlesII and some other folks who I evidently annoy is that you want to use emotion to make decisions instead of common sense and simplicity.

See if anyone thinks those kids who got a FF to advance to Sectional had sense of self pride or accomplishment may be surprised to know that in fact they did not and in some cases where embarrassed. Sure they wrestled all year and they showed up so they should get credit for that. Lets think about this; if they go to the Sectional having not wrestled a match and get destroyed do you think that great sense of pride and accomplishment is still there? Are you so blinded to think they just forgot how they got there? Take that same young man or woman and give them two or three tough matches to win and go to the Sectional and they feel far more deserving and accomplished than the other way. I do not blame the wrestler for this. I blame the WIAA and the coaches who do not want to upgrade the level of competition and the journey to the Sectional for this. They have this misplaced belief that just getting to the Sectionals is THE prize is the goal. Really? When I said some coaches (they know who they are) seems selfish in that they look for a 10 excuses why they cannot get a or several wrestlers to the State Tournament. Yet on the other hand several (many) coaches seek out the best competition encourage off season work and teach a work ethic that shows wrestlers they have work hard to earn that opportunity and hard work has its rewards. Sure you can get a pay check just for showing up for work people do that every day. But those who advance and are top performers they are the top earners weather they are blue collar or executive they work harder they earn more. Hard work = rewards the test is the Tournament series. The same holds true for wrestling yet we have folks saying just showing up should be enough?

I disagree, again its not the kids fault its a structure of how the Regionals are setup but thats on the the Coaches Association and the WIAA and I say they can improve wrestling if they have large enough set to do it.

[bigG]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

How do we sell the coaches on it? I'm sure they've thought it over; and still haven't pulled the trigger on this.

I like the idea.

[Coach V]

Ram+1

Minnesota idea sounds interesting.

Both have good points to make wrestling better.

Doc- is correct about the 80%. The % varies by team and the year. Kids have to be sold on the 'why' nowadays instead of just doing what they are told, because their are so many easier options and some parents like easy instead of what's better for the young man or woman. imho



Our proposal of the Super Regional had one hang up.The POSSIBILITY of the 6th match in a day is the hang up. It was unanimous all the way to the board of control OR whatever the last step is.

[woody53]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

How do we sell the coaches on it? I'm sure they've thought it over; and still haven't pulled the trigger on this.

I like the idea.

What it takes is one of the Coaches Association Board Members to really believe in a proposal, and then they Champion it. I have put many a proposal to gether. the only one I got through was wrestle backs to third at State. Still want Double Elimination. Just can not get someone to really Champion it.