WIAA and possible proposed changes

[ElectricGuy]

From: Andrew Pekarek   - Green Bay Press Gazette

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/sports/high-school/wrestling/2017/02/09/should-wiaa-rethink-wrestling-regionals/97660930/

Does a nice job, tossed a lot of stuff out there. 

[DocWrestling]

It all rests on the coaches association to push change.

I still think that we can improve the entire team state and individual series if we simply do not let everyone qualify.

Get rid of determining team state participants at regionals.  Easy to solve if you only allow teams with conference records of better than .500 like football.  Take the top teams like football and seed a bracket. No way Coleman and Stratford would be on same side of bracket.  Pretty easy to get through when you can get 4-8 teams in a gym and wrestle them down to 1 on one night.  Don't complain about geography or travel as an excuse when other sports do it. 

Individual state- again only let wrestlers with a .500 record or more compete in the series.  Fewer wrestlers means we can get rid of regionals and do sectionals in one day with fewer rounds and maybe match limitations don't matter.  Basically we are getting rid of all those first round mismatches.  Best wrestlers don't need those matches and those that lose just end up sitting around all day anyway which most don't consider all that much fun.

So many better ways of shortening up the time need while also improving the odds of getting the best wrestlers to state.

My thoughts on schedule...
1) conference tournament weekend- use to wrestle team duals to qualify for state.  Wrestle them on that Friday Night.  Weekend off- could wrestle on Saturday night or afternoon if huge travel needed but rather see the kids get out of school.  They do in every other sport!
2) Regionals weekend-  This becomes weekend of individual super sectionals
3) Sectionals weekend-  This becomes team state weekend- Bring down 8 teams in each division or even more.
4) Individual State weekend- this stays the same and serves as the pinnacle of the season.
5) Team State weekend- No longer needed-   all teams thus would end seasons at same time.

[shouldvewrestled]

It all rests on the coaches association to push change.

I still think that we can improve the entire team state and individual series if we simply do not let everyone qualify.

Get rid of determining team state participants at regionals.  Easy to solve if you only allow teams with conference records of better than .500 like football.  Take the top teams like football and seed a bracket. No way Coleman and Stratford would be on same side of bracket.  Pretty easy to get through when you can get 4-8 teams in a gym and wrestle them down to 1 on one night.  Don't complain about geography or travel as an excuse when other sports do it. 

Individual state- again only let wrestlers with a .500 record or more compete in the series.  Fewer wrestlers means we can get rid of regionals and do sectionals in one day with fewer rounds and maybe match limitations don't matter.  Basically we are getting rid of all those first round mismatches.  Best wrestlers don't need those matches and those that lose just end up sitting around all day anyway which most don't consider all that much fun.

So many better ways of shortening up the time need while also improving the odds of getting the best wrestlers to state.

My thoughts on schedule...
1) conference tournament weekend- use to wrestle team duals to qualify for state.  Wrestle them on that Friday Night.  Weekend off- could wrestle on Saturday night or afternoon if huge travel needed but rather see the kids get out of school.  They do in every other sport!
2) Regionals weekend-  This becomes weekend of individual super sectionals
3) Sectionals weekend-  This becomes team state weekend- Bring down 8 teams in each division or even more.
4) Individual State weekend- this stays the same and serves as the pinnacle of the season.
5) Team State weekend- No longer needed-   all teams thus would end seasons at same time.

So some of those kids who wrestle for some of the top teams and have a record of 15-16 wouldn't get to wrestle when many of their losses might be at say Cheesehead, Pulaski, MN Xmas Tournament, Pennsylvania, etc.  If they hadn't gone to those and wrestled a smaller local tourney and got wins instead that is a big difference.  Talk about protecting records, more and more coaches will just forfeit to protect a record of a bubble kid, and we already have too many forfeits, why give coaches another reason to not wrestle.

[MNbadger]

Records depend on your competition.

No interest in how it is done in MN?
8 Sections

Team Section Dual Format weekend #1 (our section does this on Friday night) Team Champ qualifies for state giving you an eight team bracket

Individual Section Weekend #2 Friday night/Saturday Top two qualify for state giving you a sixteen man bracket

State Tournament
Team on Thursday
Individual on Friday/Saturday

In years past they were run simultaneously and that was good too.

[DocWrestling]

So some of those kids who wrestle for some of the top teams and have a record of 15-16 wouldn't get to wrestle when many of their losses might be at say Cheesehead, Pulaski, MN Xmas Tournament, Pennsylvania, etc.  If they hadn't gone to those and wrestled a smaller local tourney and got wins instead that is a big difference.  Talk about protecting records, more and more coaches will just forfeit to protect a record of a bubble kid, and we already have too many forfeits, why give coaches another reason to not wrestle.

I agree that this could cause some changes on how coaches view things but lets be honest and say that maybe one kid a year with that type of record makes it to state.  We cannot have supersectionals in one day if we invite everyone.  Why hold the whole process hostage for the outside chance their are one or 2 kids that fit that scenario.  Please let me know how many kids make it to state this year that had losing records at the start of regionals.  It certainly will not be many.  Maybe simply making the cutoff for winning percentage .400 or .450 is enough.  Maybe we wrestle some early round matches at the team dual Saturday prior to regionals.

The big point is that it can work to reduce the individual state tournament series to two weekends rather than three and I think that benefits all.

[ElectricGuy]

It all rests on the coaches association to push change.

I still think that we can improve the entire team state and individual series if we simply do not let everyone qualify.

Get rid of determining team state participants at regionals.  Easy to solve if you only allow teams with conference records of better than .500 like football.  Take the top teams like football and seed a bracket. No way Coleman and Stratford would be on same side of bracket.  Pretty easy to get through when you can get 4-8 teams in a gym and wrestle them down to 1 on one night.  Don't complain about geography or travel as an excuse when other sports do it. 

Individual state- again only let wrestlers with a .500 record or more compete in the series.  Fewer wrestlers means we can get rid of regionals and do sectionals in one day with fewer rounds and maybe match limitations don't matter.  Basically we are getting rid of all those first round mismatches.  Best wrestlers don't need those matches and those that lose just end up sitting around all day anyway which most don't consider all that much fun.

So many better ways of shortening up the time need while also improving the odds of getting the best wrestlers to state.

My thoughts on schedule...
1) conference tournament weekend- use to wrestle team duals to qualify for state.  Wrestle them on that Friday Night.  Weekend off- could wrestle on Saturday night or afternoon if huge travel needed but rather see the kids get out of school.  They do in every other sport!
2) Regionals weekend-  This becomes weekend of individual super sectionals
3) Sectionals weekend-  This becomes team state weekend- Bring down 8 teams in each division or even more.
4) Individual State weekend- this stays the same and serves as the pinnacle of the season.
5) Team State weekend- No longer needed-   all teams thus would end seasons at same time.

So some of those kids who wrestle for some of the top teams and have a record of 15-16 wouldn't get to wrestle when many of their losses might be at say Cheesehead, Pulaski, MN Xmas Tournament, Pennsylvania, etc.  If they hadn't gone to those and wrestled a smaller local tourney and got wins instead that is a big difference.  Talk about protecting records, more and more coaches will just forfeit to protect a record of a bubble kid, and we already have too many forfeits, why give coaches another reason to not wrestle.

+1

Doc, not a bad idea for team, but not good for individuals.  1 kid you say?  We might have 3 that fall into that this year.

We have very good wrestlers on our team with .500 records and they have beaten ranked kids and it wasn't upsets either.  We have three on our team that are bouncing around .500 records,  who I think have a shot at making state and trust me it's not because we are in an easy regional. 

Lets use Stoughton's schedule to show how of course not all records are equal.  Our season competition has consisted of:

7th Place @ Cheesehead ahead of:
Kaukauna D1 #2, St. Michael-Albertville    #4 AAA, Carl Sandburg    #9 AAA,  Marmion Academy    #3 AAA, Simley    #3 AA, Waverly-Shellrock    #6 AAA, Edwardsville    #22 AAA, Platte County    #3 Class3, Pewaukee    #5 D1, Lyons TWP    #19 AAA, Milton    #8 D1, Fennimore    #3 D3, Two Rivers    #10 D2, Freedom    #7 D2,

The top 6 were all nationally ranked teams.

3rd Place @ Bethlehem Christmas Tournament in Pennsylvania ahead of:
Ahead of #12 Nationally Ranked Nazerath #2-AAA in PA  ---- Also, ahead of 7 Pennsylvania ranked Teams:  #12-AAA Central Dauphin, #8-AAA Council rock south, #13-AA Freedom, #9-AA North Lebanon, #15-AA Northwestern Lehigh, #3-AA Saucon Valley, #15-AAA Wilson West Lawn,   #15 NJ - Phillipsburg

One of the top two is nationally ranked.

Stoughton's Duals for 2016/2017 against ranked teams were:
#1 D3 33-28 Stratford , #4 D3 59-13 Mineral Point, #5 D3 46-21  Random Lake, #3 D2 39-25 Lomira, #7 D1 48-12 Slinger, #5 D1 43-23 Marshfield, #3 D3 54-18 Fennimore, #6 D3 48-20 Athens, #HM D2 67-12 Evansville, #8 D1 44-18 Milton, #HM D2 44-18, River Valley, #12 D1 46-22 Waunakee, #5 D2 44-23 Lodi

Good luck having a + .500 record going through that gauntlet if your upper middle of the road talent wise. 

Oh yea - I forgot to include the Badger conference tournament with 4 ranked teams competing and a couple nationally ranked kids.  Also, I didn't include the Badger State 28 team tournament that was down this year due to weather.   

[DocWrestling]

I love that teams like yours wrestle that gauntlet and it will help greatly this time of the year.  Maybe we simply get the coaches in a room like they do for other sports and they seed the sectional from an individual standpoint and team standpoint. It won't go strictly by record but maybe by seeding with top wrestlers qualifying.

There is a way to make it happen and make it fair without excuses.  And yes it might affect a wrestler or two but if it is a huge bonus to the greater good of wrestling then it is worth it.

If you want every wrestler to make it then at same location as team duals weekend, you could still wrestle probably 2 rounds of individual matches for wrestlers that are trying to wrestle into the individual tournament.  Kind of like rattails held the week prior?

Just ideas to make it work.  Or you just invite everyone and make it Friday/Saturday rather than taking up two weekends.  I cannot believe that coaches do not want an extra weekend off?

[DocWrestling]

It seems to me the main point of article was that especially at D2 and D3 we need to get all the wrestlers into one bracket so that 3rd place kid is not squeezed out of regionals.  If we do that we also seem to eliminate a weekend which seems WIN-WIN!

Friday/Saturday scenario
Eliminate some wrestlers on Friday nigh makes Saturday manageable

Negatives
1) Travel two days in a row-  costs are the same whether you drive Friday and Saturday or Saturday/Saturday
2) Positive is that WIAA only has to find one site-  Negative is that they may have to be larger gyms and that the WIAA will not be able to charge you at both the regional and the sectional.  I am sure they will just up the admission fee or charge you both days.
3) Coaches have said that seeding 16-30 wrestlers is much more difficult than seeding 6-8 at the regional.  This is true but can be done.  With technology it could be done on Thursday night from the comforts of their own home.

Saturday only scenario
-have to eliminate wrestlers based on their season record, etc.  Maybe coaches would not even enter every kid since it would no longer be tied to regional champion qualifying for team state.  No reason for kids to continue wrestling placement matches if they cannot qualify for state.

D1 system would be very easy to modify due to fewer possible wrestlers at each sectional.

[DarkKnight]

My ideas are not make up the regional until Mid January, and separate and the seed the teams based on rankings and a coach's meeting of the top 20 teams in the Division.

Teams can travel, that shouldnt be an issue anymore. Separating the top teams in essence separates the top individuals as those top teams contain a large number of the top individuals.

Sure still some will get left behind, but not as many as now.

In the LC regional alone, the top 3 wrestlers in the sectional are potententially at that regional at more than one weight class, and will get left behind because they take 3rd at regionals.

[thequad]

Also 6 of the top 10 ranked teams in one sectional. D2 at Seymour.

[DocWrestling]

Should be very easy to separate teams out for the team state stuff just like other sports!

Improving individual state tournament is not quite as easy but can be done.

The WIAA says they host a tourney to crown a champion.  I think the experience of state should be the focus and getting the best teams and individuals there because they have earned it.  Geography should not be first factor.

[foose4]

Should be very easy to separate teams out for the team state stuff just like other sports!

Remember, they don't do this for football, basketball, baseball, softball.....go by regions.   I know they are doing for a couple sports, but still majority of team stuff is totally by region.

[DarkKnight]

Should be very easy to separate teams out for the team state stuff just like other sports!

Remember, they don't do this for football, basketball, baseball, softball.....go by regions.   I know they are doing for a couple sports, but still majority of team stuff is totally by region.

True.

But as a Human Race, we are constantly evolving. If we can see ways to improve the system, it is only natural to do so.

[DocWrestling]

Should be very easy to separate teams out for the team state stuff just like other sports!

Remember, they don't do this for football, basketball, baseball, softball.....go by regions.   I know they are doing for a couple sports, but still majority of team stuff is totally by region.

Football looks at the teams and does there best to separate top teams.  There is a reason why Bayport and Kimberly have not been in same section the last few years.  I agree the other sports pre-determine their sectional assignments ahead of time.  Football does not because not everyone qualifies.

[Quack]

If the teams in their Regional would quit being so good, then we wouldn't have to discuss this