WIAA and possible proposed changes

[ramjet]

I see two issues here;

Coaches un willing to agree to change because they think participation trophies are real.  Let me explain; in a couple of the Regionals that exactly what we have a participation trophy. Show up and move on to the Sectional. They get protective of a lame program and or weak conference. Job security or misplaced school pride? Maybe a little of both.

The WIAA they are a bureaucratic heavy organization that is really afraid of making changes. They seem unwilling to allow a fresh set of eyes to sit in on and be part of the decision making process.

[woody53]

I see two issues here;

Coaches un willing to agree to change because they think participation trophies are real.  Let me explain; in a couple of the Regionals that exactly what we have a participation trophy. Show up and move on to the Sectional. They get protective of a lame program and or weak conference. Job security or misplaced school pride? Maybe a little of both.

The WIAA they are a bureaucratic heavy organization that is really afraid of making changes. They seem unwilling to allow a fresh set of eyes to sit in on and be part of the decision making process.

I agree with your first statement. Disagree with the second as I do get to sit in on many a WIAA meeting.

[Kyle]

It all rests on the coaches association to push change.

I still think that we can improve the entire team state and individual series if we simply do not let everyone qualify.

Get rid of determining team state participants at regionals.  Easy to solve if you only allow teams with conference records of better than .500 like football.  Take the top teams like football and seed a bracket. No way Coleman and Stratford would be on same side of bracket.  Pretty easy to get through when you can get 4-8 teams in a gym and wrestle them down to 1 on one night.  Don't complain about geography or travel as an excuse when other sports do it. 

Individual state- again only let wrestlers with a .500 record or more compete in the series.  Fewer wrestlers means we can get rid of regionals and do sectionals in one day with fewer rounds and maybe match limitations don't matter.  Basically we are getting rid of all those first round mismatches.  Best wrestlers don't need those matches and those that lose just end up sitting around all day anyway which most don't consider all that much fun.

So many better ways of shortening up the time need while also improving the odds of getting the best wrestlers to state.

My thoughts on schedule...
1) conference tournament weekend- use to wrestle team duals to qualify for state.  Wrestle them on that Friday Night.  Weekend off- could wrestle on Saturday night or afternoon if huge travel needed but rather see the kids get out of school.  They do in every other sport!
2) Regionals weekend-  This becomes weekend of individual super sectionals
3) Sectionals weekend-  This becomes team state weekend- Bring down 8 teams in each division or even more.
4) Individual State weekend- this stays the same and serves as the pinnacle of the season.
5) Team State weekend- No longer needed-   all teams thus would end seasons at same time.

That's a horrible idea! Only one kid per weight class should end their season with a win. Everyone else should wrestle until they lose. You don't know each kids story. The whole point is to work to improve and you want to eliminate kids before they even get to take their shot. I can't imagine trying to enjoy the competition if you have a rough stretch and get behind in your record. Could you imagine going to practice knowing you are wasting your time because you are already out? This is just eletists crap and does not belong in High School Wrestling.
Kyle

[Brett Favre - R.I.P.]

I just did the math in all the WIAA regional from today. There were a total of 330 teams that competed. In D1 the Oak Creek regional had 7 teams with a total of 46 wrestlers. All but 9 wrestlers qualified for sectionals. In D3 the Phillips regional had only 1 wrestler at 220. At the Crivitz regional there was only a TOTAL of 39 wrestlers between the six teams. 106 and 113 had 1 wrestler each and 4 weights had only 2 each. Make weight and you qualify for sectionals. Not very competitive.

Here's my idea based on this years numbers. Go to 2 divisions. 115 teams (or co-ops) in each division. 16 regionals per division. There would be an average of 10.2 teams at each regional. The top 4 from each regional qualifies for sectionals. Combine 2 regionals for each sectional (like we do now for D1). From the 8 sectionals in each division, only the top 2 would qualify for state. That would give you 16 in each D1 & D2 at state.

At the state tournament each wrestler would be guaranteed at least 2 matches. You would have 32 kids qualify for state at each weight instead of 40 like you have now but the way it is now 4 per weight only get one match in D1 if they lose their first match.

Or have the top 3 out of each sectional qualify giving you 24 per weight class per division and run it like they currently do D2 & D3 with each sectional champ getting a BYE in round 1.

What are your thoughts

[Kyle]

I just did the math in all the WIAA regional from today. There were a total of 330 teams that competed. In D1 the Oak Creek regional had 7 teams with a total of 46 wrestlers. All but 9 wrestlers qualified for sectionals. In D3 the Phillips regional had only 1 wrestler at 220. At the Crivitz regional there was only a TOTAL of 39 wrestlers between the six teams. 106 and 113 had 1 wrestler each and 4 weights had only 2 each. Make weight and you qualify for sectionals. Not very competitive.

Here's my idea based on this years numbers. Go to 2 divisions. 115 teams (or co-ops) in each division. 16 regionals per division. There would be an average of 10.2 teams at each regional. The top 4 from each regional qualifies for sectionals. Combine 2 regionals for each sectional (like we do now for D1). From the 8 sectionals in each division, only the top 2 would qualify for state. That would give you 16 in each D1 & D2 at state.

At the state tournament each wrestler would be guaranteed at least 2 matches. You would have 32 kids qualify for state at each weight instead of 40 like you have now but the way it is now 4 per weight only get one match in D1 if they lose their first match.

Or have the top 3 out of each sectional qualify giving you 24 per weight class per division and run it like they currently do D2 & D3 with each sectional champ getting a BYE in round 1.

What are your thoughts

Why is that better? Is the goal to bring bragging rights to sectional qualifying like it used to be? The weak kids get eliminated at sectionals. Is the lofty goal to eliminate them earlier? Is there a goal or do we have a bunch of old guys that didn't make it to sectionals that can't stand to see an unworthy kid make it today because of lower numbers? I see this subject as a fix it until it's broke situation.

[MNbadger]

Agreed Kyle.

[ramjet]

I just did the math in all the WIAA regional from today. There were a total of 330 teams that competed. In D1 the Oak Creek regional had 7 teams with a total of 46 wrestlers. All but 9 wrestlers qualified for sectionals. In D3 the Phillips regional had only 1 wrestler at 220. At the Crivitz regional there was only a TOTAL of 39 wrestlers between the six teams. 106 and 113 had 1 wrestler each and 4 weights had only 2 each. Make weight and you qualify for sectionals. Not very competitive.

Here's my idea based on this years numbers. Go to 2 divisions. 115 teams (or co-ops) in each division. 16 regionals per division. There would be an average of 10.2 teams at each regional. The top 4 from each regional qualifies for sectionals. Combine 2 regionals for each sectional (like we do now for D1). From the 8 sectionals in each division, only the top 2 would qualify for state. That would give you 16 in each D1 & D2 at state.

At the state tournament each wrestler would be guaranteed at least 2 matches. You would have 32 kids qualify for state at each weight instead of 40 like you have now but the way it is now 4 per weight only get one match in D1 if they lose their first match.

Or have the top 3 out of each sectional qualify giving you 24 per weight class per division and run it like they currently do D2 & D3 with each sectional champ getting a BYE in round 1.

What are your thoughts

Why is that better? Is the goal to bring bragging rights to sectional qualifying like it used to be? The weak kids get eliminated at sectionals. Is the lofty goal to eliminate them earlier? Is there a goal or do we have a bunch of old guys that didn't make it to sectionals that can't stand to see an unworthy kid make it today because of lower numbers? I see this subject as a fix it until it's broke situation.

The goal of Regionals is to get the "best" wrestlers in the State competing at Sectionals for the privilege of competing at the State Tournament. Now can you say under the current structure the best in the state at that weight class are going to Sectionals? Now the idea of this discussion is not cut the rug from under the wrestlers who got a walk through with zero competition but to identify the flaw of having some really good wrestlers that would or may beat those wrestlers for the chance to move on. In other words is it fair that really good wrestlers have to stay home because of a poor Regional structure that pits those kids against each other BEFORE sectionals?

In other words I could take some Regional third place guys that could beat the 1-2 place wrestlers from another Regional because the structure is such they got stacked up in a stacked Regional where the weak walk through Regional advanced some wrestlers that maybe need some more work. This should be sorted out at sectionals not Regionals. Nothing will be perfect but it surely can be better. For example could they combine a weak and strong regional and let the top 4 go to Sectionals.

If I where to take the Crivitz and Manawa Regionals and combine them and allow the top 4 wrestlers to advance do you think the same wrestlers would be going to the Bonduel Sectionals? How about Crivitz and the Coleman Regional combined take the top 4 best wrestlers do you think it would look a the same?

[greysquirrelmobile]

When looking at the team races,   There are some second place regional teams that would have a shot if they could adjust the match-ups.   You can't really consistently use the rankings because that can change from year to year.   What one could use is a three year average of participation rates at each regional.   If a larger geographic area could be considered,  then look at the teams who consistently have full teams over the past three years.  Split those teams.  I'm not going to take the time to do math, but it would provide a more objective way to split the regionals so the team sectionals add more competiton...not going to work out perfectly, but uses numbers versus rankings.

[ramjet]

When looking at the team races,   There are some second place regional teams that would have a shot if they could adjust the match-ups.   You can't really consistently use the rankings because that can change from year to year.   What one could use is a three year average of participation rates at each regional.   If a larger geographic area could be considered,  then look at the teams who consistently have full teams over the past three years.  Split those teams.  I'm not going to take the time to do math, but it would provide a more objective way to split the regionals so the team sectionals add more competiton...not going to work out perfectly, but uses numbers versus rankings.

Team is a good point if you look at the structure I described above the Team sectionals also improves. In D3 I think combining the Regionals and taking the top 4 instead cleans things up as does taking the top two teams from those combined Regionals.

I will use combining the Crivitz and Coleman Regionals if that was done do you think the same two teams would be going to Team Sectionals?

[greysquirrelmobile]

When looking at the team races,   There are some second place regional teams that would have a shot if they could adjust the match-ups.   You can't really consistently use the rankings because that can change from year to year.   What one could use is a three year average of participation rates at each regional.   If a larger geographic area could be considered,  then look at the teams who consistently have full teams over the past three years.  Split those teams.  I'm not going to take the time to do math, but it would provide a more objective way to split the regionals so the team sectionals add more competiton...not going to work out perfectly, but uses numbers versus rankings.

Ram,  that's a great compromise!  That would really help and not add a ton of time!

Team is a good point if you look at the structure I described above the Team sectionals also improves. In D3 I think combining the Regionals and taking the top 4 instead cleans things up as does taking the top two teams from those combined Regionals.

I will use combining the Crivitz and Coleman Regionals if that was done do you think the same two teams would be going to Team Sectionals?

[Kyle]

The goal of Regionals is to get the "best" wrestlers in the State competing at Sectionals

False.  The goal of the Regionals is to get the best wrestlers from that region to Sectionals and from there to State. This is how WIAA sports work. Better athletes and teams get eliminated in stronger areas while lesser athletes and teams move on in weaker areas. If you fix this so only the very best regardless of geography are allowed to compete then you will succeed in killing these sports in less populated areas. Rather than kill high school sports why don't you guys develope an elite all star tournament that could follow the high school season?
Kyle

[MNbadger]

I agree Kyle. I do not know the stated goal of the WIAA but the MSHSL is very clear that their purpose is NOT competitive balance, it is for opportunity and it is done geographically. 

[gijd]

I agree with your comments Kyle. Some regions in the state have better numbers and better teams, no doubt about it. It's too bad that some of your better teams and individuals have to battle it out in one region where another one is not as strong, it's just the way it is like it or not. I personally wouldn't mind combining 2 regionals together and taking the top 4 individuals and 2 teams out in D3. I disagree with eliminating individuals with a record under .500 and not letting them compete. If we're so concerned about the lack of matches at dual meets, imagine the wrestlers with losing records or just above .500 that may not wrestle to protect their record so they wouldn't be eliminated from the state tournament series. I think this would create a mess and also hurt the sport of wrestling. The schools in the rural areas of northern Wisconsin are considerably smaller compared to 10-15 years ago. Less kids in the school, means less kids to recruit and of course that leads to problems filling out a full team. Of course that's not the only reason teams are struggling getting kids out, but it's a real problem. Why penalize the kids that are out busting their butts. Eliminating kids with sub .500 records is about the dumbest thing we can do. Let them all wrestle, because in the end the best kids and teams will win out regardless.

[ramjet]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

[wrastle63]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

But yet a 3rd place kid with a 24 and 4 record sits at home and their are byes and kids with losing records at sectionals.