It's the thread you know you needed: 12 weights

[Chris Hansen]

My only hope in this topic is that those of you who want to reduce the number of weight classes at the very least know that there are a lot of us who are equally invested, who wishes to remain at 14 for equally good reasons. We are not as vocal because we are not trying to change anything. We already have what we want. So if it seems that this is a very one-sided conversation, that is because only one side is speaking. Just know, that your belief, which seems incredibly obvious and is a no-brainer to you, it is incredibly obvious and a no-brainer to me also even though we are 180° apart.

When I have this conversation with my inner circle, we clarify what our desired outcome is.   You want better, more competitive duals with more teams having a chance.   Fair enough.

I want more wrestlers.

We have a different desired outcome.

Your not wrong, I'm not wrong.

I was the head coach at Bruce High School, division 3.  I was the head coach at Plymouth High School, division 2. I am the head coach at Hudson High School, division 1. I have coached in southeastern Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and northwestern Wisconsin on the St. Croix River.  I have seen both sides of the coin. My team at Plymouth had six athletes when I moved there.  I've had a team in Hudson ranked number one.

None of that means anything other than to give me a qualified opinion. And here it is.......

With 100% guarantee, I will have less kids on my team with 13 weights then I will if I have 14 weights. Take that to the bank, it is a guarantee.

Might not be true for you. Didn't say it was. I'm talking about my team and my guarantee.

[littleguy301]

nicely said Mr Hanson!

I will stand behind having 14 weight classes if that means we keep just 1 kid out or wrestling gets 1 more kid out.

[The wrestler]

Our team has been competitive and are in the mix every year 6 team state titles 5 2nd place in twenty years. I'm not talking about our team I'm talking WIAA in general. Coach is always wrestling tough teams. If you people are worried about your team and trying to figure out what to do your wrong. Let's look at the big picture. More teams down to Madison for team Titles. When that comes to you then your team gets better and it all rubs off to the next kid. Not all wrestlers can make it to individual state. If you have 13 good wrestlers as a team you may win. Every year it's the same teams that make it. You can not win team sectionals when you have 10-11-12-13- wrestlers. That's where the team comes in. What fun is it to go and watch 9 kids wrestle and lose all the time. Are team doesn't need to co-op and that will never happen. The answer is not to look for teams that have what you have and wrestle. I'm sure if your team is ranked in the nation like you say your coach isn't looking for teams like that he is looking for tougher teams to make his team better. Look at teams that make it to individual state. You have 3 or 4 weights in a row from schools because good wrestlers rub off on other kids. It's a fact fact finder. Look at the big picture and not put a bandaid on it and patch it fix it.  When two teams wrestle end in a tie there is no criteria needed who won more matches 6-7 = 13. Done deal. Losing one weight is not going to fix all the ff but it will help for sure.

[The wrestler]

Fact finder. I think your team won 3 years in a row.

[Ghetto]

My only hope in this topic is that those of you who want to reduce the number of weight classes at the very least know that there are a lot of us who are equally invested, who wishes to remain at 14 for equally good reasons. We are not as vocal because we are not trying to change anything. We already have what we want. So if it seems that this is a very one-sided conversation, that is because only one side is speaking. Just know, that your belief, which seems incredibly obvious and is a no-brainer to you, it is incredibly obvious and a no-brainer to me also even though we are 180° apart.

When I have this conversation with my inner circle, we clarify what our desired outcome is.   You want better, more competitive duals with more teams having a chance.   Fair enough.

I want more wrestlers.

We have a different desired outcome.

Your not wrong, I'm not wrong.

I was the head coach at Bruce High School, division 3.  I was the head coach at Plymouth High School, division 2. I am the head coach at Hudson High School, division 1. I have coached in southeastern Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and northwestern Wisconsin on the St. Croix River.  I have seen both sides of the coin. My team at Plymouth had six athletes when I moved there.  I've had a team in Hudson ranked number one.

None of that means anything other than to give me a qualified opinion. And here it is.......

With 100% guarantee, I will have less kids on my team with 13 weights then I will if I have 14 weights. Take that to the bank, it is a guarantee.

Might not be true for you. Didn't say it was. I'm talking about my team and my guarantee.

I'm interested in your opinion. I have also coached on both sides of the spectrum, number-wise. When I was at Muskego, we took two busses because we couldn't fit on one. I coached/coach at Whitefish Bay, where we had 8 last year.

What makes you think that dropping to 13 weights would make you lose kids? Don't you already have kids that wrestle JV because they have a better kid in front of them? Is that why kids would quit?

I in no way am being sarcastic, because I don't get it. I wrestled in a program where we had over 100 kids when I was a freshman. There were 12 weights. That same school now has maybe 30 with 14 weights. I think they have a great coach who works in the building. Back then we did not.

I do want more competitive duals. You are 100% right about that. I also want for more teams to fill weights so the product looks better to the non or average fan. I also want more numbers. I don't think they are correlated, and that's why I am asking.

I truly don't think we have a different desired outcome. At the end of the day both of us want wrestling to be better and to grow. What we disagree on is how that is going to happen.

[littleguy301]

Fact finder. I think your team won 3 years in a row.

From a guy who calls himself factfinder

[asdfg]

My only hope in this topic is that those of you who want to reduce the number of weight classes at the very least know that there are a lot of us who are equally invested, who wishes to remain at 14 for equally good reasons. We are not as vocal because we are not trying to change anything. We already have what we want. So if it seems that this is a very one-sided conversation, that is because only one side is speaking. Just know, that your belief, which seems incredibly obvious and is a no-brainer to you, it is incredibly obvious and a no-brainer to me also even though we are 180° apart.

When I have this conversation with my inner circle, we clarify what our desired outcome is.   You want better, more competitive duals with more teams having a chance.   Fair enough.

I want more wrestlers.

We have a different desired outcome.

Your not wrong, I'm not wrong.

I was the head coach at Bruce High School, division 3.  I was the head coach at Plymouth High School, division 2. I am the head coach at Hudson High School, division 1. I have coached in southeastern Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and northwestern Wisconsin on the St. Croix River.  I have seen both sides of the coin. My team at Plymouth had six athletes when I moved there.  I've had a team in Hudson ranked number one.

None of that means anything other than to give me a qualified opinion. And here it is.......

With 100% guarantee, I will have less kids on my team with 13 weights then I will if I have 14 weights. Take that to the bank, it is a guarantee.

Might not be true for you. Didn't say it was. I'm talking about my team and my guarantee.

I'm interested in your opinion. I have also coached on both sides of the spectrum, number-wise. When I was at Muskego, we took two busses because we couldn't fit on one. I coached/coach at Whitefish Bay, where we had 8 last year.

What makes you think that dropping to 13 weights would make you lose kids? Don't you already have kids that wrestle JV because they have a better kid in front of them? Is that why kids would quit?

I in no way am being sarcastic, because I don't get it. I wrestled in a program where we had over 100 kids when I was a freshman. There were 12 weights. That same school now has maybe 30 with 14 weights. I think they have a great coach who works in the building. Back then we did not.

I do want more competitive duals. You are 100% right about that. I also want for more teams to fill weights so the product looks better to the non or average fan. I also want more numbers. I don't think they are correlated, and that's why I am asking.

I truly don't think we have a different desired outcome. At the end of the day both of us want wrestling to be better and to grow. What we disagree on is how that is going to happen.

I think you answered your own question.  When you coached at Muskego you were able to get those big #'s with 14 weight classes.   I don't see in anyway how Muskego would have gotten even bigger #'s with less opportunity for varsity.  I would even wager that with 1-2 less varsity spots you would get a couple kids that would quit due to that lessened opportunity.  Also, why should kids from a team like Muskego lose varsity opportunities due to other programs inability to fill their rosters?

When you coached at WFB-even with the excitement of having one of the best wrestlers in the state, co-op'ing, and some of the best clubs within driving distance you couldn't recruit more then 8 kids.   I find it hard to believe that one or 2 less forfeits would suddenly make the dual so exciting that a kid will want to join that team.  Even with 10-12 weights you would have still had 6-8 matches the years you were there.  In no way will a parent or kid look at WFB and say, "geez, I had no desire to join that team or sport when it was 14 spots, but now that it is 12 (or whatever), I'm all in."  Cutting to 1-2 varsity spots would have made WFB competitive in maybe 25% more of their duals.  It is hard to believe that would garner more interest in the sport at the expense of limiting thru-out the whole state.

From your past posts you lurk on Twitter also.  I am assuming you have read the recent posts about weight classes by Willie Saylor and a bunch of others. To me the ratio for keeping 14 versus limiting is around 2 or 3 for keeping for every one that wants to reduce.  I really enjoyed Evan Wick's mother's statement about her sons being held back a year because they would have been 91# freshman, and they would not have been able to showcase their skills in the short time in high school.  I wonder what  options they would have had if the lowest weight class was 112# as you suggest.

Finally-off Track, Muskego actually had 47 kids fat test this year, not 30.  You are correct, WFB was at 8, but now 15 kids and I see they even had a 106#er fat test for the first time in years.  Overall, it looks like both teams are trending positive #'s the past couple years-much like the overall #'s in the state as another poster pointed out.

[littleguy301]

I will say it again, get rid of 7 and 7 and a team with a small roster wouldn't have to deal with a dual forfeit issue.

I think in Wisconsin we notice the glaring forfeits because we are forced to have 7 duals. Meaning 2 teams have to dual it out on a Thursday night or whatever night. Dual last less than a half and hour and it has little fan fair. If that same team was to be able to schedule tournaments no many would know about the forfeits.

I cannt count the amount of times I have looked at results and see a team with lower numbers and say how tough they were.

Look at other sports outside of wrestling. Taking away spots isnt the answer or the first thing that comes to mind in those sports, that I know of.

[Ghetto]

I think you answered your own question.  When you coached at Muskego you were able to get those big #'s with 14 weight classes.   I don't see in anyway how Muskego would have gotten even bigger #'s with less opportunity for varsity.  I would even wager that with 1-2 less varsity spots you would get a couple kids that would quit due to that lessened opportunity.  Also, why should kids from a team like Muskego lose varsity opportunities due to other programs inability to fill their rosters?

I coached at Muskego in the 1990s. I think there were 13 weights then. If we had 80 kids, then 67 were wrestling JV. We go to 12 weights and now kids are going to quit?

When you coached at WFB-even with the excitement of having one of the best wrestlers in the state, co-op'ing, and some of the best clubs within driving distance you couldn't recruit more then 8 kids.   I find it hard to believe that one or 2 less forfeits would suddenly make the dual so exciting that a kid will want to join that team.  Even with 10-12 weights you would have still had 6-8 matches the years you were there.  In no way will a parent or kid look at WFB and say, "geez, I had no desire to join that team or sport when it was 14 spots, but now that it is 12 (or whatever), I'm all in."  Cutting to 1-2 varsity spots would have made WFB competitive in maybe 25% more of their duals.  It is hard to believe that would garner more interest in the sport at the expense of limiting thru-out the whole state.

Just to clarify, I was the head coach at Bay from 2006 to 2017. When I started in 2006, we returned zero kids. None. At one point we had 28 kids in the room, so it's not true to say that I couldn't recruit more than 8 kids. While I'll never make the hall of fame, I worked hard to build a program, and I did. When we did have good duals kids did join our program so they could be a part of it. While I will agree that kids don't look at the weights, they would see an actual exciting dual and possibly think wrestling is for them. To watch a constant stream of FFs, that isn't creating excitement for anyone. Cutting 1-2 weights would have made 4 of our 7 duals last year competitive. Also, just as an aside, I started the co-op with USM because we saw that our numbers were gonna be low, and we actually added a school that had never had a wrestling program.

From your past posts you lurk on Twitter also.  I am assuming you have read the recent posts about weight classes by Willie Saylor and a bunch of others. To me the ratio for keeping 14 versus limiting is around 2 or 3 for keeping for every one that wants to reduce.  I really enjoyed Evan Wick's mother's statement about her sons being held back a year because they would have been 91# freshman, and they would not have been able to showcase their skills in the short time in high school.  I wonder what  options they would have had if the lowest weight class was 112# as you suggest.

I do more than lurk on Twitter    I do follow Willie, but that doesn't make me think he's right. Willie looks at elite level wrestling. That's all he cares about. He thinks the sport is fine because the highest level kids are light years better than they were. He doesn't look at the sport overall. No one will argue with Willie because he's got a big ole' mouth and will call you dumb for arguing with him. There are people out there on Twitter that are on the other side. Almost 70% of coaches in the country voted to reduce weights, BTW.

Finally-off Track, Muskego actually had 47 kids fat test this year, not 30.  You are correct, WFB was at 8, but now 15 kids and I see they even had a 106#er fat test for the first time in years.  Overall, it looks like both teams are trending positive #'s the past couple years-much like the overall #'s in the state as another poster pointed out.

I wrestled at Muskego in the late 80's and we had over 100 kids in the room. There were 12 weights. I know what WFB has in the room because I work with our kids/middle schoolers and still have a hand in our program. We have had a 106 pounder for most of the years that I've been involved in the program. Overall, we are not trending up as a state. We have lost almost 1000 kids from 2012 til now.

[littleguy301]

For s..st and giggles when you reply to this post put how many kids made it to individual state for last three years and how many times you team makes for last ten years.
Example: 6-4-3 ind
Example: 2-1st and 3-2nd team
I have no idea where any of you are  from and don't want to know. Just want to get some info to see where we are at and talking about. Thanks

Dnp, dnp, dnp, 6, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 1
Made team sectional for the first time in 25 years. 1 and done there. Glory years from 85 to 96. 1-1, 4-2 top 4 4 times.

So up and coming with 6 freshmen, 3 sophomores, 2 juniors and 3 seniors in last years line up.

Enough info for you?

[Chris Hansen]

My only hope in this topic is that those of you who want to reduce the number of weight classes at the very least know that there are a lot of us who are equally invested, who wishes to remain at 14 for equally good reasons. We are not as vocal because we are not trying to change anything. We already have what we want. So if it seems that this is a very one-sided conversation, that is because only one side is speaking. Just know, that your belief, which seems incredibly obvious and is a no-brainer to you, it is incredibly obvious and a no-brainer to me also even though we are 180° apart.

When I have this conversation with my inner circle, we clarify what our desired outcome is.   You want better, more competitive duals with more teams having a chance.   Fair enough.

I want more wrestlers.

We have a different desired outcome.

Your not wrong, I'm not wrong.

I was the head coach at Bruce High School, division 3.  I was the head coach at Plymouth High School, division 2. I am the head coach at Hudson High School, division 1. I have coached in southeastern Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and northwestern Wisconsin on the St. Croix River.  I have seen both sides of the coin. My team at Plymouth had six athletes when I moved there.  I've had a team in Hudson ranked number one.

None of that means anything other than to give me a qualified opinion. And here it is.......

With 100% guarantee, I will have less kids on my team with 13 weights then I will if I have 14 weights. Take that to the bank, it is a guarantee.

Might not be true for you. Didn't say it was. I'm talking about my team and my guarantee.

I'm interested in your opinion. I have also coached on both sides of the spectrum, number-wise. When I was at Muskego, we took two busses because we couldn't fit on one. I coached/coach at Whitefish Bay, where we had 8 last year.

What makes you think that dropping to 13 weights would make you lose kids? Don't you already have kids that wrestle JV because they have a better kid in front of them? Is that why kids would quit?

I in no way am being sarcastic, because I don't get it. I wrestled in a program where we had over 100 kids when I was a freshman. There were 12 weights. That same school now has maybe 30 with 14 weights. I think they have a great coach who works in the building. Back then we did not.

I do want more competitive duals. You are 100% right about that. I also want for more teams to fill weights so the product looks better to the non or average fan. I also want more numbers. I don't think they are correlated, and that's why I am asking.

I truly don't think we have a different desired outcome. At the end of the day both of us want wrestling to be better and to grow. What we disagree on is how that is going to happen.

24 years ago, I thought 40 athletes was my magic number and I needed/wanted to achieve that by 10+10+10+10=40
I was wrong.
40 is still the correct number but I need/want to get there 12+12+10+6=40

The sophomore class stays as large as the freshman class because that is the class I recruit.  I lose 3 of those 12 freshmen but I find 3 kids from the hallway to join as sophomores. 

9th + 10 will ALWAYS be larger than 11th + 12th. 

The reason is as the path to Varsity gets less-realistic, the more likely a kid will have better options outside the room.  Providing depth is simply not enticing enough, generally speaking.

So yes, Ghetto, I do have kids waiting patiently for their chance.  And they either get their chance or they discontinue for greener pastures.

Wrestling is TOUGH.  And the intrinsic reward is only evident to parents.  I got to be honest, I can't blame the kids. 

Just a quick question..... if we still had 10 Olympic weights, would we have more of our senior-level athletes continue their journey than we currently have with 6 Olympic weights?  That answer is yes.             

[wrastle63]

My only hope in this topic is that those of you who want to reduce the number of weight classes at the very least know that there are a lot of us who are equally invested, who wishes to remain at 14 for equally good reasons. We are not as vocal because we are not trying to change anything. We already have what we want. So if it seems that this is a very one-sided conversation, that is because only one side is speaking. Just know, that your belief, which seems incredibly obvious and is a no-brainer to you, it is incredibly obvious and a no-brainer to me also even though we are 180° apart.

When I have this conversation with my inner circle, we clarify what our desired outcome is.   You want better, more competitive duals with more teams having a chance.   Fair enough.

I want more wrestlers.

We have a different desired outcome.

Your not wrong, I'm not wrong.

I was the head coach at Bruce High School, division 3.  I was the head coach at Plymouth High School, division 2. I am the head coach at Hudson High School, division 1. I have coached in southeastern Wisconsin on Lake Michigan and northwestern Wisconsin on the St. Croix River.  I have seen both sides of the coin. My team at Plymouth had six athletes when I moved there.  I've had a team in Hudson ranked number one.

None of that means anything other than to give me a qualified opinion. And here it is.......

With 100% guarantee, I will have less kids on my team with 13 weights then I will if I have 14 weights. Take that to the bank, it is a guarantee.

Might not be true for you. Didn't say it was. I'm talking about my team and my guarantee.

I'm interested in your opinion. I have also coached on both sides of the spectrum, number-wise. When I was at Muskego, we took two busses because we couldn't fit on one. I coached/coach at Whitefish Bay, where we had 8 last year.

What makes you think that dropping to 13 weights would make you lose kids? Don't you already have kids that wrestle JV because they have a better kid in front of them? Is that why kids would quit?

I in no way am being sarcastic, because I don't get it. I wrestled in a program where we had over 100 kids when I was a freshman. There were 12 weights. That same school now has maybe 30 with 14 weights. I think they have a great coach who works in the building. Back then we did not.

I do want more competitive duals. You are 100% right about that. I also want for more teams to fill weights so the product looks better to the non or average fan. I also want more numbers. I don't think they are correlated, and that's why I am asking.

I truly don't think we have a different desired outcome. At the end of the day both of us want wrestling to be better and to grow. What we disagree on is how that is going to happen.

24 years ago, I thought 40 athletes was my magic number and I needed/wanted to achieve that by 10+10+10+10=40
I was wrong.
40 is still the correct number but I need/want to get there 12+12+10+6=40

The sophomore class stays as large as the freshman class because that is the class I recruit.  I lose 3 of those 12 freshmen but I find 3 kids from the hallway to join as sophomores. 

9th + 10 will ALWAYS be larger than 11th + 12th. 

The reason is as the path to Varsity gets less-realistic, the more likely a kid will have better options outside the room.  Providing depth is simply not enticing enough, generally speaking.

So yes, Ghetto, I do have kids waiting patiently for their chance.  And they either get their chance or they discontinue for greener pastures.

Wrestling is TOUGH.  And the intrinsic reward is only evident to parents.  I got to be honest, I can't blame the kids. 

Just a quick question..... if we still had 10 Olympic weights, would we have more of our senior-level athletes continue their journey than we currently have with 6 Olympic weights?  That answer is yes.          

Completely agree with this! Our sights are a little lower than 40 currently more like 30, but the same process. The last statement is interesting. Obviously senior level is different than high school, but the reason guys stick it out is to meet goals: sectional qualifier-qualify WTT or make national team, state qualifier-make the world/Olympic team, state place winner/champ-world/Olympic medalist.

[littleguy301]

Haven't heard from factfinder for a while. Must be looking up facts on (his sons) team. FYI factfinder you sons team is one of the best in the state always has and always will be. I can't see moving to 13 will make a difference on your sons team. We could move to 9 and it wouldn't matter. Why is it when the numbers dropped in football they went to 8 man teams. Why cuz numbers were dropping. Why can't we do the same. If you guys think I'm talking about wrestling as a idividual sport I'm not it is a team sport. Numbers are down so let's try to fix it. I respect all coaches statements and I am not a coach and never was one at the high school level but that doesn't mean I can't see what's going on. I wrested in youth wrestled in high school and always have been involved with our team missed some matches but always been there for 42 years.  I know how many we have out year after year and it is always 20-23 boys . If a wt is dropped from the sport we have varsity reserve to absorb it and 13 is still more than football baseball and round ball. When our coach starts out the year he has only one goal for the team and that's a Team State Title and the rest follows that. I'm thinking for the teams that have never have the opportunity for a team title don't care about it. That's what this is all about teams will be better and more competitive. Think about it if a team has to give up a game cuz they only can put 4 guys out to play basketball or 9 guys on a football team before 8 man 7 guys for baseball. They don't play the game cuz it's not even players. But they do it in wrestling. If you say wrestling is not a team sport then why do they give 6 points for a ff when you don't have enough boys.

Well factfinder hasn't quite gotten to the level of cliff klaven

What I have been trying to say is basically all sports at the high school level are losing kids left and right. Overall the numbers are down in all sports. Maybe the new sports like bowling, trap shooting, mens volleyball and so on are gaining but the well established sports are losing.

Example, I am a big high school sports buff overall. What I have noticed is you now have 9 man football for the lack of numbers. 30 years ago those schools that dropped to 9 had the numbers for 11 man football and their enrollment size in many cases are around the same.

I have noticed volleyball seemed to always have 3 teams and some times 4 from each school. Now it is not in common to see schools playing each other with just varsity and jv.

Tennis, I notice that teams forfeit a singles or dual in their meets.
Cross country needs 4 to score but run 5 but some schools run only 4 heck they have a formula for schools eith 3 runners also.
Golf is the same.
I see schools that have ok only 1 kid in an event even though they can have 2 in track.
I noticed last year a school played a softball game with 8 players when you can have 9.

What I dont hear is in those sports I just mentioned talk about eliminating a spot so they can be more competitive like you hear in wrestling.

Can you image the track coach saying we have to eliminate the 100 because I dont have any one that can run it.
How about the softball coach saying we have to do away with second base because I cannt field one to play it.

Eliminating spots will just give another reason for some kid to say they aren't going out.

[The wrestler]

If my memory is correct D3 had a team that took a team state Championship 2 years in a row with two boys which had 4 kids out all year. I believe it was Coleman. So it can be done in track.

[thequad]

If my memory is correct D3 had a team that took a team state Championship 2 years in a row with two boys which had 4 kids out all year. I believe it was Coleman. So it can be done in track.

I think you better read this over and see what it sounds like! Then check your facts!
With two boys?
And four kids out all year?