It's the thread you know you needed: 12 weights

[Ghetto]

I've waited far too long to bring this up, and with the stay at home order expanding, it's time to have this discussion again.

The premise is simple. We struggle to fill all 14 weights. Most duals are a cavalcade of FFs and hand raising. We've raised the weights from 12 in the 1980s to 13 and now to 14. With specialization, among a million other factors, wrestling has lost numbers over the years. I believe that it's time to go back to 12, because numbers show that it is a number that more teams would fill.

The numbers that I'm giving are from regionals. The term "non-varsity" are kids who were either 0-0 entering regionals, or had a .200 winning percentage or less.

Reminder that Pennsylvania is moving to 12 weights:

https://www.pennlive.com/highschoolsports/wrestling/2019/05/piaa-board-of-directors-passes-provision-to-reduce-number-of-wrestling-weight-classes.html



Here goes. First, body fat tests have declined consistently until last year:



Along with the decline in kids, we are filling less and less teams every year. Here's the data on that from 2005 to 2020. The percentages are teams who had 12 or less kids at regionals:

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Not only are we losing teams, those teams are getting smaller. In 2020, 68% of all the teams in Wisconsin had 12 or less wrestlers in their regional lineup.

And often, in D1, teams with 13 or 14 kids in their lineup are really just throwing bodies in there. Here's the amount of teams who had 12 or less when you take out the 0-0 records or kids who have a winning percentage of less than .200 (Worse than 2-8, 4-16, etc.) Credit due to D3 programs. Their kids are, for lack of a better term, their kids. For the most part, D3 programs don't pad their lineups for regionals like D1.

   

75% of the teams in our state can't fill a lineup without throwing out bodies that likely should be on JV. The argument is that we are taking away opportunities, and for a lot of teams in this state, that simply isn't true. Also, JV is an opportunity to wrestle.

To answer some of the arguments that will come...

Every kid that made it to the state tournament belonged there. None of them should have been excluded. Some kids make it, some don't. Having 12 weights doesn't change that.

This isn't about me or the team I was the head coach for. I also coached at teams that had 50 kids.

I love wrestling. That's the reason I bring it up every year. I want our sport viable forever.

A specific weight should not be cut. Weights should be dispersed and spread out where kids are. I have that information as well. It's a different thread, for a different day.

Have a great day everyone. I hope you are all well, both physically and mentally. It's a strange time.

[Numbers]

Maybe the WIAA has some time to implement changes since spring sports are halted.

[npope]

I tend to agree with Ghetto and those who promote this position.

I am not really a believer in the "more weights means more opportunities" for kids. Ghetto is right, JV is an opportunity. Noting wrong with with being on JV at a certain point in your career. Only a limited number of schools can completely fill 14 weights; FF at duals hurts the sport - period. An abundance of them kills the sport. Did you know that boxing used to be a state sponsored high school sport in Wisconsin? That fate could befall wrestling, as well; we aren't impervious to that fate. Wrestling is better off concentrating its talent in fewer weights and keeping the opportunities there for JV development in the terms of tournaments, etc.

Just like a good gin and tonic, its better when its concentrated.

[The wrestler]

Why is it that everybody agrees with what you are saying but WIAA. I was told that they wanted more kids involved in the sport so they went to 14. Yet Baseball 9 Football 11 and round ball 5. So when they had 12 it was still more than football. I think it's money because when they get to Madison its 14 no matter what we say about it. People have been bringing up this every year and nothing is done about it. If they went back to 12 wrestlers team state would be tougher to get to the finals. If you can't put 14 wrestlers on the mat you don't get past team Sec. You stay home.

[3boys]

I agree with 12 weights. Is it posssible to go down to 12 weights and then 2 matches for everyone at state?

[downtown]

12 weights with three evenly split up divisions with 16 kids qualifying for state is something I could get behind.  Roughly the same amount of kids qualifying for state.  Same regional and state setup.  Easy and not complicated.  Now just get double elimination in at state and you are set.

[Ghetto]

The idea that the WIAA cares enough about wrestling to forge its own path rather than just follow the NFHS is flawed.

Wisconsin will go to 12 the second the NFHS does, and not a second earlier.

100% true. I've been told that. I'm disappointed that we can't be on the front line of this. Part of it is that we don't get enough support from our coaches association to push the agenda.

[padre]

The idea that the WIAA cares enough about wrestling to forge its own path rather than just follow the NFHS is flawed.

Wisconsin will go to 12 the second the NFHS does, and not a second earlier.
[/quote

Id agree.  Ive been in coaches meetings for two decades.  Voting has ranged from weight class numbers, date to start wrestling, sectional assignments amongst many many more things.  None changed even though voting was nearly 100 percent.  Now it is with female wrestling...guess we will see on that.

I am not for or against the minimum of weight classes at this point(changing my opinion more yearly)...would like to see a model to make my opinion.  I do know there are many reasons for less wrestlers from school to school.  However, like Luke said unless it gets passed from the NFHS it wont be looked at.

[littleguy301]

The idea that the WIAA cares enough about wrestling to forge its own path rather than just follow the NFHS is flawed.

Wisconsin will go to 12 the second the NFHS does, and not a second earlier.

100% true. I've been told that. I'm disappointed that we can't be on the front line of this. Part of it is that we don't get enough support from our coaches association to push the agenda.

I wouldn't put all the blame on the coaches. There are alot of coaches that do push items and continually talk to the wiaa. Sadley those in charge at the wiaa really dont care.

I do think the  current 7 and 7 plan will be looked at and maybe adjusted in due time. Wisconsin is becoming slowly the only state that mandates that. Wiaa doesnt want to be first or last

Double elimination at state I feel is a higher priority right now.

I was a big let's eliminate weights. Now not so much. I get the arguement of the ff and lack of filling weights. My come back is if some kid does come out and we eliminated that weight he probably doesnt stay out. Also until we get nation wide womens wrestling we will not eliminate weights. I do believe the nfhs has continued to keep the 14 weights is for room for the females to fit in also.

I will say I wouldn't mind seeing 13 weights just for the purpose of duals never have a chance of being tied.

I also believe if we go away from growth allowance there might not be as much shuffling of weight later in the year, thus maybe filling out weights more in certain cases.

[Ghetto]

I do think the  current 7 and 7 plan will be looked at and maybe adjusted in due time. Wisconsin is becoming slowly the only state that mandates that. Wiaa doesnt want to be first or last

Double elimination at state I feel is a higher priority right now.

I was a big let's eliminate weights. Now not so much. I get the arguement of the ff and lack of filling weights. My come back is if some kid does come out and we eliminated that weight he probably doesnt stay out. Also until we get nation wide womens wrestling we will not eliminate weights. I do believe the nfhs has continued to keep the 14 weights is for room for the females to fit in also.

I will say I wouldn't mind seeing 13 weights just for the purpose of duals never have a chance of being tied.

I agree that the 7/7 rule should be looked at. Tournaments don't build teams however.

Double elimination should be a no brainer.

If a kid comes out for the first time, are we throwing them on varsity right away? It's what we already do. Do they come out because this weight is the only weight for them? Someone who comes out next year, if the weights were to change, would have no frame of reference as to what they should wrestle. They'd just go where they fit in best. I'd say we lose far more kids who are thrown to the wolves on a varsity mat that they have no business being on.

I think the trend is separate girls wrestling, and whatever weight boys are using will be irrelevant. And it should be. Girls are different sizes.

[1Iota]

I have fought the argument to reduce weight classes for awhile now, but have come to the realization that 14 is to many.  I think moving to 12 would make for a better sport, and would actually increase the interest in our sport.  Most duals, and even some tournaments have become a joke that don't reflect well on the  sport. 

In compromise perhaps we have different weight classes for duals while keeping the 14 for individual state. 

A dual format with 10 weight classes

110
118
126
134
142
152
162
175
190
HW

Your best wrestlers are still going to be in the line up regardless of their individual weight class and you will have more competitive duals.

[DocWrestling]

In compromise perhaps we have different weight classes for duals while keeping the 14 for individual state. 

I have been saying this for years.  Wrestling has a team component and an individual component.  The individual side is still doing pretty well and meeting the needs of wrestlers.  The team component has become a waste of time and money for one dual in a night for 80% of duals.

Individual Tournaments- nothing wrong right now with 14 weight classes except maybe their length.  I would rather have fewer weight classes and make every match 2-2-2 if time is an issue otherwise no pressing issue now.

Duals-  I would have 10 or 11 weight classes.  I would lean towards 10.  Goal is to have at least 20 matches in night.  10 JV matches and 10 varsity matches.  If you have two mats I would wrestle them both at the same time for more action and excitement in the gym at once and more fans in at once.  Too many people only come for either JV or varsity and leave for the other.  We don't need to make duals 3+ hours long from weigh-ins to JV wrestling, to varsity warm-ups, to varsity matches.  3+ hours for 20-30 minutes of actual wrestling time.  For those of you who think kids don't want to wrestle JV well then maybe wrestling at same time as varsity will make it better.

[npope]

If I were in charge, 12 weights would be fine (although that is not a magic number - someone could convince me that 10 is equally good). I would promote the idea of quadrangulars, as opposed to duals (although again, not locked into it as a sole pattern for meets). As a general principle, concentrate the talent and focus; HS wrestling does not have enough participation and interest to spread itself as thin as it does.

[factfinder]

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

[npope]

Thank you for supporting your position with some numbers. Assuming we take your numbers at face value, it sounds as though you are saying that the numbers in wrestling are growing and thus, 14 weights is a logical step in response. Are you also saying, be extension, that there aren't relatively more forfeits taking place during dual meets these days? Because that is what I am saying (admittedly without providing numeric support for the argument); increased forfeits during duals these days are hurting the sport. Despite the numbers you cite, I get the distinct impression that the sport of wrestling is in a state of decline - not growth...but that is just my impression.

I am not sure of the numbers, but MN might be an aberration if looked at in isolation - it is a unique state for wrestling purposes. I strongly suspect that varsity weights are going unfilled at a higher rate than previous to 2002 and I would contend that, if true, hurts the sport.