It's the thread you know you needed: 12 weights

[wrastle63]

I have fought the argument to reduce weight classes for awhile now, but have come to the realization that 14 is to many.  I think moving to 12 would make for a better sport, and would actually increase the interest in our sport.  Most duals, and even some tournaments have become a joke that don't reflect well on the  sport. 

In compromise perhaps we have different weight classes for duals while keeping the 14 for individual state. 

A dual format with 10 weight classes

110
118
126
134
142
152
162
175
190
HW

Your best wrestlers are still going to be in the line up regardless of their individual weight class and you will have more competitive duals.

Gotta be at least 12 - something closer to 100 and something between 190 & 285.

108
116
125
135
145
155
165
180
200
HWT

[Ghetto]

I respectfully question your point here;
"Reminder that 75% of the teams in Wisconsin field 12 or less kids when taking out the 0-0 wrestler and the kids who win less than 20% of their matches (kids who likely should be on JV). So, by some standards, only 1/4 of the teams are working hard."
It is pretty arbitrary to carve out the "0-0 wrestler" or the "kids who win less than 20% of their matches".  This does not mean they should likely be on varsity.  You have who you have at some point and they ARE your varsity.  Two less weights is not going to change this.
In our conference I have had kids that were surprisingly good who struggled to win 20% of their matches.  This is why I try to schedule non-conference matches with teams more like us.  One problem is your conference might eat up your dates.  I know you guys in WI have the 7 and 7 rule which makes it doubly tough.  I don't even want to be in/on our conference schedule.
Additionally, even if you eliminated all your 0-0 kids and your less than 20% winners, you'd likely have the same results.  If you took all the kids that won 80% of their matches and put them in a season schedule of competition for the most part there would still be those winning 10% of the time, 20% of the time, etc.  They would all be better of course but your numbers would be mostly the same.

It's not arbitrary at all. If a kid has not wrestled one varsity match and we are in February, then they weren't a varsity kid. It is extremely rare that a kid was injured or didn't wrestle before regionals.

A 4-17 kid probably should have wrestled JV. I've never done the research, but I wonder what the percentages are for kids who are less than .200 and quit the next year. With scramble tournaments, where you get a chance to wrestle kids at your ability level, a 4-17 kid isn't good.

[downtown]

You realize if you take out the 4-17 kid (who you are correct would probably benefit from a year on jv) then the 9-12 kid (who you do consider a varsity kid) will just assume more losses because he doesn't have the 4-17 type kids to beat anymore.  Therefore turning him into the 4-17 "non varsity" kid.  Unless everyone is going to be close to .500 your argument for cutting weight classes will never work.

[The wrestler]

Little guy that doesn't make sense at all. That is not the point. How are you going to get good wrestlers with that method. We have great competition but in other tournaments we also wrestlers am duals with  LC WTown all the good teams. Green Bay United has 3 D1 schools together and can't compete with D3 schools. Wrestling is down in more ways than the stats that say more teams and more kids. Is 14 wts  a money deal for WIAA. At least go to 13 wts  to try to save wrestling. Not too many years ago wrestling was going to be eliminated from the Olimpics. What does that tell you. Something has to change. First thing comes to mind is the tie in D3 this year with 14 wts. If there was 13 wts problem solved. I sure wouldn't want to have been the team to lose that match on a coin flip or the last criteria would you guys.Why don't we just try 13 and see where it goes. Something has to change. Team state would have more teams that would be able to be competitive. If you don't have 14 kids on your team you will not make it to Madison. Plain and simple. How many teams have you guys seen make it out of team sec and how many take state with 12 or even 13 kids. NONE. If Coleman would not had a 132 pounder and would have ff that match they would have lost that match. Putting a kid on the mat and get pinned won it for them. No way was the Coleman kid going to win that match. 13 wrestlers is the start to our problem.

[downtown]

Little guy that doesn't make sense at all. That is not the point. How are you going to get good wrestlers with that method. We have great competition but in other tournaments we also wrestlers am duals with  LC WTown all the good teams. Green Bay United has 3 D1 schools together and can't compete with D3 schools. Wrestling is down in more ways than the stats that say more teams and more kids. Is 14 wts  a money deal for WIAA. At least go to 13 wts  to try to save wrestling. Not too many years ago wrestling was going to be eliminated from the Olimpics. What does that tell you. Something has to change. First thing comes to mind is the tie in D3 this year with 14 wts. If there was 13 wts problem solved. I sure wouldn't want to have been the team to lose that match on a coin flip or the last criteria would you guys.Why don't we just try 13 and see where it goes. Something has to change. Team state would have more teams that would be able to be competitive. If you don't have 14 kids on your team you will not make it to Madison. Plain and simple. How many teams have you guys seen make it out of team sec and how many take state with 12 or even 13 kids. NONE. If Coleman would not had a 132 pounder and would have ff that match they would have lost that match. Putting a kid on the mat and get pinned won it for them. No way was the Coleman kid going to win that match. 13 wrestlers is the start to our problem.

A couple of things.  I agree with you in that 13 weight classes with most victories is the best way to decide a winner.  But you still could have an issue if only 12 weight classes were wrestled.  Also, you can not win the state team championship with a coin flip if all other things are equal.  That rule was changed awhile ago.  If it gets to that then you will have co champs.  Lastly Coleman didn't win the state title because their kids wrestled at 132 and got pinned.  Pins, defaults, disqualifications and forfeits all count as the same for that tiebreaker.  They won because they scored the most first match points scored cumulative.  If anything having their kid wrestle at 132 could have cost them the dual if he had scored a misconduct point which is an earlier tie breaker than first match points scored.  So if you want to nit pick at it, it was a coaching error to send him on the mat.  Coach probably wasn't thinking that deeply at the time about it and didn't know if they were ahead on first match points scored.  He was just hoping to get tech falled and win it out right.  The difference in Coleman winning State was their 285lber scoring a reversal for first match points scored in a losing 2-8 effort.

[bigoil]

Little guy that doesn't make sense at all. That is not the point. How are you going to get good wrestlers with that method. We have great competition but in other tournaments we also wrestlers am duals with  LC WTown all the good teams. Green Bay United has 3 D1 schools together and can't compete with D3 schools. Wrestling is down in more ways than the stats that say more teams and more kids. Is 14 wts  a money deal for WIAA. At least go to 13 wts  to try to save wrestling. Not too many years ago wrestling was going to be eliminated from the Olimpics. What does that tell you. Something has to change. First thing comes to mind is the tie in D3 this year with 14 wts. If there was 13 wts problem solved. I sure wouldn't want to have been the team to lose that match on a coin flip or the last criteria would you guys.Why don't we just try 13 and see where it goes. Something has to change. Team state would have more teams that would be able to be competitive. If you don't have 14 kids on your team you will not make it to Madison. Plain and simple. How many teams have you guys seen make it out of team sec and how many take state with 12 or even 13 kids. NONE. If Coleman would not had a 132 pounder and would have ff that match they would have lost that match. Putting a kid on the mat and get pinned won it for them. No way was the Coleman kid going to win that match. 13 wrestlers is the start to our problem.

A couple of things.  I agree with you in that 13 weight classes with most victories is the best way to decide a winner.  But you still could have an issue if only 12 weight classes were wrestled.  Also, you can not win the state team championship with a coin flip if all other things are equal.  That rule was changed awhile ago.  If it gets to that then you will have co champs.  Lastly Coleman didn't win the state title because their kids wrestled at 132 and got pinned.  Pins, defaults, disqualifications and forfeits all count as the same for that tiebreaker.  They won because they scored the most first match points scored cumulative.  If anything having their kid wrestle at 132 could have cost them the dual if he had scored a misconduct point which is an earlier tie breaker than first match points scored.  So if you want to nit pick at it, it was a coaching error to send him on the mat.  Coach probably wasn't thinking that deeply at the time about it and didn't know if they were ahead on first match points scored.  He was just hoping to get tech falled and win it out right.  The difference in Coleman winning State was their 285lber scoring a reversal for first match points scored in a losing 2-8 effort.

Coleman did win the team title because they had a kid at 132. If they FF, they would have again tied but criteria F they would have lost.

f. The team giving up the least number of forfeits.
g. The team having the greater number of technical falls shall be declared the winner.
h. The team having the greater number of major decisions shall be declared the winner.
i. The team having the greater number (total match points) of first-point(s) scored shall
be declared the winner.

[downtown]

Downtown I said 13. And check the criteria letter q and I quote if none of the above resolves a tie a flip of the disk will determine a winner. And yes the Coleman coach did know what was going on with sendnig a kid to  ff or wrestle. The outcome would have been the same. And as far as the tech fall that wasn't going to happen. But I will agree on a tech fall miracle but that's not the point we need to go with 13 for more reasons than not. D2and D3 schools will not survive and still be a competitive wrestling team. Some D1 schools also look at a school like Bay port. They have one of the biggest schools in D1 and toughest football around excellent coaches are competitive but if you drop to 13 they would be a better team. It's hard to make kids to want to wrestle after middle school kids drop off. Youth programs have lot of kids but as soon as they get into high school they have so many more sport programs to pick from. When your team has 22 kids out they still can't put 14 kids on the mat. Great teams can't win with less than 14 wrestlers. We have 22 wrestlers that's why I am saying this. I just wish WIAA would look at this problem.

I know that you said 13 weights, I am just saying if only twelve weights were wrestled as in a double forfeit you would have the same problem.

I totally missed missed less forfeits being before  first match points scored.  Thanks  for pointing it out.  I can't believe I missed that.  I have never run into it before for a tiebreaker.

I think unless you go to something drastic like 10 weight classes it won't matter losing a weight class or two for the majority of the struggling teams.

[The wrestler]

Downtown have you found where it says a flip of the disk wins the match yet.

[downtown]

For the state championship final match only, the last criteria is not used.  I believe it is a Wisconsin rule only (not part of the NFHS rules).  In any other match throughout the entire year including up to the state finals it is used.  Just not in the state finals.  I don't remember what year it was changed but it was after the mineral point/cadott tie in the state finals.

[downtown]

To be clear I did know about the disc flip being the ultimate deciding factor in a tied dual when everything else is equal.

I did not realize that the team with less forfeits was a decider before first match points scored cumulative.  I had not realized it.  So that was my miss and my fault which I owned and thanked you for pointing it out.

I don't know where the disc flip rule is published for the team state championship.  I would assume it is an amendment in the wiaa case book somewhere.  I just remember when it was discussed and brought forth. 

[downtown]

Are you a Ref. You can't be a coach. Anyone else know about this rule. Seams a little shady to me if its good for any other match but state finals. It can not go both ways. You are right about one thing it was MPoint and Cadott but it was changed after that match so there is only 1 winner not co champs. One set of rules for all the matches but one. Sorry coach we don't use all the rules on this paper we have anther one over here I think we use in case of a tie for the finals only.

It took me all of 5 minutes to find it.  Page 68 of the 2019-20 tournament procedures on the wiaa website.  It is under team tournament procedures.  It says, and I quote....

Ties in Dual Competition During State Team Tournaments
In the event there is a tie in dual competition during the sectional and State phases of competition, National Federation dual meet tie-breaking criteria shall be applied to determine a winner (NF Rule 9-2-2)
Note 1:
Note 2:
If none of the listed criteria resolve the tie in quarterfinal and semifinal competition, an official will meet with captain of each team in center of mat and break tie by flipping colored disc with green representing home team and red representing visiting team.
STATE Championship Finals: NF tie breaking criteria will be applied. If after all NF tie breaking criteria have been applied a tie remains unbroken - Co-Champions will be declared in lieu of flipping a colored disc

Funny how you would attack me for admitting I was wrong and missed something.  Which I was very surprised and disappointed in myself that I had missed it for so many years. Yet here I am finding this and showing you.  You obviously don't coach or ref because you don't even know this rule or why it was applied.  I don't even know you and I am sure that you can be around this sport for the next 40 years and you couldn't rattle of rules, names, history and procedures like I can.

[Ghetto]

I'll just drop this here....

The NFHS Wrestling Rules Committee has made some rule change proposals for the 2020-2021 wrestling season. These are condensed changes and are NOT official but have been proposed and are being looked at as possibilities.

ART. 1 . . . The competition shall be in the following weight classes:

107 lbs.

114 lbs.

121 lbs.

128 lbs.

134 lbs.

140 lbs.

146 lbs.

152 lbs.

160 lbs.

172 lbs.

189 lbs.

215 lbs.

285 lbs.

NFHS Rationale:

After analysis of a national survey conducted by NWCA, the following information is offered in support of a reduction to 13 weight classes:

· 37 states responded to the survey with 68% indicating a desire to see a reduction of wt classes;

· The proposal removes one weight class from the top of the current weight classes and bumps up lower weight classes by only one pound;

· 50% of the weight classes fall in the 'window' where 50% of the wrestlers are eligible to compete according to their weight plans;

· 13 weight classes provide a natural tie-breaker for dual meets;

· One of the primary speaking points heard from coaches and parents is the concern of losing or raising the lower weight classes; this proposal minimally impacts the bottom weight classes while maintaining an equal distribution of wrestlers throughout all classes.

There are also proposed weight classes for Girls Wrestling.

100 lbs., 106 lbs., 112 lbs., 118 lbs., 124 lbs., 130 lbs., 136 lbs., 142 lbs., 148 lbs., 155 lbs., 170 lbs., 190 lbs., 235 lbs.

[Ghetto]

In my never ending quest for 12 (but 13 is a step in the right direction) I offer this:

No more weight allowance. Let's be honest. Kids use it to cut to a lower weight, most of the time.

If there was no weight allowance, then the 12 weights could be:

112 (107 from above proposal is 110 at the end of the season)
119
126
133
141
149
157
165
177
190
210
285

I saw on Twitter a proposal to drop 285 to 265. Not sure how I feel about that, but his point was that grown men in the Olympics have to make 265 to wrestle heavyweight.

[wrastle63]

In my never ending quest for 12 (but 13 is a step in the right direction) I offer this:

No more weight allowance. Let's be honest. Kids use it to cut to a lower weight, most of the time.

If there was no weight allowance, then the 12 weights could be:

112 (107 from above proposal is 110 at the end of the season)
119
126
133
141
149
157
165
177
190
210
285

I saw on Twitter a proposal to drop 285 to 265. Not sure how I feel about that, but his point was that grown men in the Olympics have to make 265 to wrestle heavyweight.

Awful. You cut out 106 which is a very competitive weight class to keep 220/215. The 13 weight class proposal combines 182, 195 and 220 Into 189 and 215. It also spread out the weights instead of just cutting the lowest weight. If you follow that same thread on twitter there are stats from national coaches meeting that most AAs and NCAA champs start their HS career at 106.

[Wis-Mallard]

The first 3 weights in college are very small for an adult so it makes sense that they were at 106 as a freshman in high school.