It's the thread you know you needed: 12 weights

[Ghetto]

Love this annual discussion too bad it means absolutely nothing as far a change goes. Absolutely nothing.

Yeah. I still like to bring it up. When I ask for the data every year, the nice people at the WIAA ask me what I do with the data. I feel obligated to bring it up here.

It's nice that I don't get messages attacking me anymore. I feel like people are coming around to the idea. That or they get tired of my argument. Either way, I believe I am winning. 😜

[factfinder]

Going to 12 weights will not allow a team to defeat say ...... Coleman that can't beat them with 14 weights.   One might argue that it will be worse with 14 weights as Coleman will be condensing their talent making it tougher to score any points against them.

I understand the points of more exciting duals and agree, they'll be a few more exciting duals to follow.

But, there are already plenty of exciting of duals from the middle tier teams and upper tier teams. Duals in the CWC and plenty of other conferences have been fun to follow.

Luxemburg Casco vs WT and Denmark and others are always fun.

Top teams like Kaukauna, Stoughton, Mukwonoga, Coleman, Stratford, Ellsworth, etc, will still handle much of their competition if we drop to 12 weights. They have their share of interesting duals in the current 14 weight format also.

I think that what you've said here is at the heart of my argument. I would like to see duals competitive for the majority of teams. Duals create interest in programs. Every team would benefit from a competitive dual with tons of kids in the stands.

You don't need to eliminate opportunities for kids to have competitive duals!!! Just get rid of 7&7 so teams can line up duals with teams at similar talent level.!!! It sounds like the WIAA is finally on board with this!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!
FYI, elite teams don't always like doing duals. Duals are awesome for mid level teams but for elite teams they can really suck. Thank goodness my son's team only had 5 or 6 duals last year because we had so many FF's to very good teams with full line-ups, we had a team that qualified for state FF 8 weights to us. Its awesome that in MN you don't have to do any duals if it doesn't fit for your team.
A couple years ago I looked up a couple of the elite wrestlers in WI and the elite kids were being FF to 50% of there dual matches. I used to love duals but as I have learned more about the sport I could care less about duals. I am not saying duals are not fun, but they really don't mean much.
The point isn't for some team that usually is in the bottom third of their conference to upset Coleman, Mukwonago, Stoughton, Kaukauna, etc. It's for that bottom third team to have an exciting dual with someone close to their caliber. Good conference duals. The powers that be do it better. Of course they would be able to consolidate their lineups and be that much better.

[littleguy301]

with all the talk about FF at duals I cannt help go back to the idea of getting rid of the 7 and 7 rule.

I think many overlook the idea that now instead of a dual you can have quads and with teams that might work out right for teams that may not have a complete line up.

the one big problem with getting rid of the 7 and 7 rule is that it is going to be more work for the AD and coaches to find those teams to dual with.

also it might be the end of the conference duals, to which many will be upset about.

with that said you can still dual your conference teams if you chose but how about setting up a quad instead of a single dual. cuts down on travel, frees up the season for maybe some more off days. the ideas are endless that I think will be positive for the sport.

as a coach maybe only 1 event a week and you make weight for a quad and you get those 3 matches in on a night and your wrestler doesnt have to make weight again the next week for a FF.

[littleguy301]

Going to 12 weights will not allow a team to defeat say ...... Coleman that can't beat them with 14 weights.   One might argue that it will be worse with 14 weights as Coleman will be condensing their talent making it tougher to score any points against them.

I understand the points of more exciting duals and agree, they'll be a few more exciting duals to follow.

But, there are already plenty of exciting of duals from the middle tier teams and upper tier teams. Duals in the CWC and plenty of other conferences have been fun to follow.

Luxemburg Casco vs WT and Denmark and others are always fun.

Top teams like Kaukauna, Stoughton, Mukwonoga, Coleman, Stratford, Ellsworth, etc, will still handle much of their competition if we drop to 12 weights. They have their share of interesting duals in the current 14 weight format also.

I think that what you've said here is at the heart of my argument. I would like to see duals competitive for the majority of teams. Duals create interest in programs. Every team would benefit from a competitive dual with tons of kids in the stands.

You don't need to eliminate opportunities for kids to have competitive duals!!! Just get rid of 7&7 so teams can line up duals with teams at similar talent level.!!! It sounds like the WIAA is finally on board with this!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!
FYI, elite teams don't always like doing duals. Duals are awesome for mid level teams but for elite teams they can really suck. Thank goodness my son's team only had 5 or 6 duals last year because we had so many FF's to very good teams with full line-ups, we had a team that qualified for state FF 8 weights to us. Its awesome that in MN you don't have to do any duals if it doesn't fit for your team.
A couple years ago I looked up a couple of the elite wrestlers in WI and the elite kids were being FF to 50% of there dual matches. I used to love duals but as I have learned more about the sport I could care less about duals. I am not saying duals are not fun, but they really don't mean much.
The point isn't for some team that usually is in the bottom third of their conference to upset Coleman, Mukwonago, Stoughton, Kaukauna, etc. It's for that bottom third team to have an exciting dual with someone close to their caliber. Good conference duals. The powers that be do it better. Of course they would be able to consolidate their lineups and be that much better.

I agree and disagree with your talk about duals.

yes, good teams struggle to find good duals for themselves and maybe tournaments will be the best for them overall.

though I will say that for many teams those duals are great team builders and fan builders. any time you get 2 teams that are close in talent it becomes a very good dual for sure. people get excited for those duals and possibly some really good match ups.

you say the wiaa is starting to get on board with no more 7 and 7? maybe my letters have helped I doubt it

[padre]

I'm not saying it isnt nice to be conference champs but Id much rather go out looking for decent duals.  We have way too many teams with way too many forfeits and the fun of great duals that could be set up far outweighs conference titles.

You could still hold a conference tournament.

[factfinder]

I'm not saying it isnt nice to be conference champs but Id much rather go out looking for decent duals.  We have way too many teams with way too many forfeits and the fun of great duals that could be set up far outweighs conference titles.

You could still hold a conference tournament.

Could not agree with you more!!!!! Let the coaches coach!!! If coaches had the ability to line up there own schedule half of this B.S. of cutting to 12 weight classes would go away.
There are so many steps to be taken before we cut weight classes!!

[DocWrestling]

I agree with getting rid of 7x7 rule.  I also would eliminate conference duals and allow independent schedules.  Let the top teams set up great duals amongst themselves outside of conference limitations and even out of division.

I am from Fond du Lac and we were pretty good when I wrestled.  Very few of our conference duals were much fun and none have any memories to me now.  The best duals we had were the most fun and they were against Luxemburg-Casco and Campbellsport.  Those are my memorable dual experiences.

Our conference does not allow for out of conference duals now due to the schedule and number of teams.  At this point I think we would still want to wrestle other conference teams that are of similar talents.  I think Kaukauna would rather dual against Lux-Casco and Wrightstown than wrestle us now or other conference foes.

The one caveat with scheduling is that coaches will still need to work to host some home events.  Teams are going to still want home opportunities for their wrestlers.  As you create more triangulars or quads it gets tougher for teams to have enough events to still be able to host at home.

I agree that coaches and AD's should have the freedom to set up schedules that fit the needs of their teams.

[greysquirrelmobile]

Two discussions in one!  Love it. 

12 weight classes- I'll never be a proponent to take opportunities away from high school kids.   The hardcore wrestling fans who want to see awesome matchups can see them at WWF Freestyle and Greco State or Fargo. 

As far as duals- if you want to feel some energy at a dual, go to a SWAL dual.  For the majority of the duals, it does not matter how many matches are taking place.  It is loud and intense.

[DarkKnight]

Two discussions in one!  Love it. 

12 weight classes- I'll never be a proponent to take opportunities away from high school kids.   The hardcore wrestling fans who want to see awesome matchups can see them at WWF Freestyle and Greco State or Fargo. 

As far as duals- if you want to feel some energy at a dual, go to a SWAL dual.  For the majority of the duals, it does not matter how many matches are taking place.  It is loud and intense.

There are plenty of intense duals and matches already for sure, all around the state.

[factfinder]

I don't care if you take it down to 10 weights you won't have competitive duals until you eliminate 7&7 and seed that state tournament. Until teams can travel and set up duals that mean something for there kids you will continue to go to duals and see FF and pins as the hammers avoid each other and pound on lesser experienced kids!!
Talk about an attrition problem!! Cutting weights with out fixing the problems will only grow the tumor faster then it currently is.

[Ghetto]

A couple of things.

Reminder that 75% of the teams in Wisconsin field 12 or less kids when taking out the 0-0 wrestler and the kids who win less than 20% of their matches (kids who likely should be on JV). So, by some standards, only 1/4 of the teams are working hard.

We don't know what cutting weights will do. I admit that it may do nothing. But all opinions are pure conjecture. There's no way of knowing.

Opportunities are only lost when teams are lost. We've lost some teams in the past 15 years.

In order for a sport to grow, the audience has to grow. Of course hardcore fans will continue to watch. A good dual between two teams brings students. That interest can build programs. It doesn't have to be two top five teams in the state. At one point I started to track the amount of FFs in our conference, but the number was so high. Few duals are within 20 points. The outcome was never in doubt. That's bad for wrestling.

Scheduling duals isn't a simple thing to do. Granted, if you have everyone in the state looking for duals, it would be a lot easier.

[MNbadger]

I respectfully question your point here;
"Reminder that 75% of the teams in Wisconsin field 12 or less kids when taking out the 0-0 wrestler and the kids who win less than 20% of their matches (kids who likely should be on JV). So, by some standards, only 1/4 of the teams are working hard."
It is pretty arbitrary to carve out the "0-0 wrestler" or the "kids who win less than 20% of their matches".  This does not mean they should likely be on varsity.  You have who you have at some point and they ARE your varsity.  Two less weights is not going to change this.
In our conference I have had kids that were surprisingly good who struggled to win 20% of their matches.  This is why I try to schedule non-conference matches with teams more like us.  One problem is your conference might eat up your dates.  I know you guys in WI have the 7 and 7 rule which makes it doubly tough.  I don't even want to be in/on our conference schedule.
Additionally, even if you eliminated all your 0-0 kids and your less than 20% winners, you'd likely have the same results.  If you took all the kids that won 80% of their matches and put them in a season schedule of competition for the most part there would still be those winning 10% of the time, 20% of the time, etc.  They would all be better of course but your numbers would be mostly the same.

[The wrestler]

The teams in our conference all 5 of them all together couldn't put a competitive team on the mat. To be honest they couldn't carry our teams jockstraps if they even wear them now days. We have a 1 night match with the 6 teams counting our team and it takes longer to drive there and back then it does to wrestle them all. Why we even spend the time doing this rather then picking up 5 better teams is beyond me.

[littleguy301]

The teams in our conference all 5 of them all together couldn't put a competitive team on the mat. To be honest they couldn't carry our teams jockstraps if they even wear them now days. We have a 1 night match with the 6 teams counting our team and it takes longer to drive there and back then it does to wrestle them all. Why we even spend the time doing this rather then picking up 5 better teams is beyond me.

Well with your statement I see a win/win situation.

Look at the money your school and the other 5 save having to do this in one night instead of making 5 other trips.

Then go look for tournaments or duals with LIKE teams. Maybe the goal for you is to cut down matches due to you dont have kids that want to go hog wild. Sounds like they like it enough to go out so get them matches to fit there needs. Maybe all weekday nights and no tournaments on Saturday until conference and regionals.

Getting rid of 7 and 7 doesnt mean you have to find better teams, it is about finding like teams. Getting teams on the schedule that are just like your team.

[neutral]

I have fought the argument to reduce weight classes for awhile now, but have come to the realization that 14 is to many.  I think moving to 12 would make for a better sport, and would actually increase the interest in our sport.  Most duals, and even some tournaments have become a joke that don't reflect well on the  sport. 

In compromise perhaps we have different weight classes for duals while keeping the 14 for individual state. 

A dual format with 10 weight classes

110
118
126
134
142
152
162
175
190
HW

Your best wrestlers are still going to be in the line up regardless of their individual weight class and you will have more competitive duals.

Gotta be at least 12 - something closer to 100 and something between 190 & 285.