It's the thread you know you needed: 12 weights

[littleguy301]

I will say I wouldn't mind seeing 13 weights just for the purpose of duals never have a chance of being tied.

Duals absolutely can still be tied with 13 weights. The allure, though, is that you can just have one single tiebreaker (matches won), and be done with it.

That is the point. Should be clearer.

[littleguy301]

I do think the  current 7 and 7 plan will be looked at and maybe adjusted in due time. Wisconsin is becoming slowly the only state that mandates that. Wiaa doesnt want to be first or last

Double elimination at state I feel is a higher priority right now.

I was a big let's eliminate weights. Now not so much. I get the arguement of the ff and lack of filling weights. My come back is if some kid does come out and we eliminated that weight he probably doesnt stay out. Also until we get nation wide womens wrestling we will not eliminate weights. I do believe the nfhs has continued to keep the 14 weights is for room for the females to fit in also.

I will say I wouldn't mind seeing 13 weights just for the purpose of duals never have a chance of being tied.

I agree that the 7/7 rule should be looked at. Tournaments don't build teams however.

Double elimination should be a no brainer.

If a kid comes out for the first time, are we throwing them on varsity right away? It's what we already do. Do they come out because this weight is the only weight for them? Someone who comes out next year, if the weights were to change, would have no frame of reference as to what they should wrestle. They'd just go where they fit in best. I'd say we lose far more kids who are thrown to the wolves on a varsity mat that they have no business being on.

I think the trend is separate girls wrestling, and whatever weight boys are using will be irrelevant. And it should be. Girls are different sizes.

Ghetto the 7/7 rule doesnt have to be about tournaments. 

Example up here are have 8 teams in the conference so all 7 of our duals are spoken for. Luckily 4 of the duals were very close great for competition. The other 3 duals not so competitive. How about those 3 teams dual it out and add some more teams of liked skill and get after it.

Turn the dual meets into quads and wrestle liked schools. Make sense. The 7/7 rule increases spending also. Turn all of your duals into quads and that eliminates 5 duals! Also 5 nights of travel!

Let's think outside the box on this and how to use it. Yes put a match limit on this also.

[littleguy301]

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

In Wisconsin why do all the trees lean to the west?










Answer.......Minnesota sucks

Just kidding

[Ghetto]

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

There were 239,845 boys wrestling in 2002-2003
There were 247,441 boys wrestling in 2018-2019

In the past 16 seasons, we've increased numbers by 7596.

However, teams have gotten smaller. There are 1300 more teams in the country now than there were in 2002-2003. Team size has dropped from 25.1 to 22.8, which seems insignificant, but it's almost a 10% decrease in that time.

Question:Since Jr. High kids are on HS teams, are they included in the numbers? Interesting that MN has the same amount of teams as they did in 2002-2003, but have less wrestlers. When did JHI start in MN? Was it before 2002-2003 or after?

While we disagree on cutting weights, we do agree on some things. Locking teams into 7/7 hurts teams. Like Littleguy says, having 7 conference duals locking up all of our spots makes no sense for us or any of the teams we wrestle. I'm on board for shortening the season (starting after Thanksgiving would be fine with me). Co-ops are fine, but are tough to administer. It isn't often that the "back half" or non-host school ever comes back to have their own program. I'm not sure the descent program is making us lose kids, but it is tough on coaches to keep track of the paperwork.

If Pennsylvania is thinking of having less weights, then I think it is more likely to happen. Ohio, which is also a strong state, has 100 teams since 2002, but 2400 less kids.

[MNbadger]

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

There were 239,845 boys wrestling in 2002-2003
There were 247,441 boys wrestling in 2018-2019

In the past 16 seasons, we've increased numbers by 7596.

However, teams have gotten smaller. There are 1300 more teams in the country now than there were in 2002-2003. Team size has dropped from 25.1 to 22.8, which seems insignificant, but it's almost a 10% decrease in that time.

Question:Since Jr. High kids are on HS teams, are they included in the numbers? Interesting that MN has the same amount of teams as they did in 2002-2003, but have less wrestlers. When did JHI start in MN? Was it before 2002-2003 or after?

While we disagree on cutting weights, we do agree on some things. Locking teams into 7/7 hurts teams. Like Littleguy says, having 7 conference duals locking up all of our spots makes no sense for us or any of the teams we wrestle. I'm on board for shortening the season (starting after Thanksgiving would be fine with me). Co-ops are fine, but are tough to administer. It isn't often that the "back half" or non-host school ever comes back to have their own program. I'm not sure the descent program is making us lose kids, but it is tough on coaches to keep track of the paperwork.

If Pennsylvania is thinking of having less weights, then I think it is more likely to happen. Ohio, which is also a strong state, has 100 teams since 2002, but 2400 less kids.

[MNbadger]

Junior high inclusion has been operational in MN forever, way before 2002.

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

There were 239,845 boys wrestling in 2002-2003
There were 247,441 boys wrestling in 2018-2019

In the past 16 seasons, we've increased numbers by 7596.

However, teams have gotten smaller. There are 1300 more teams in the country now than there were in 2002-2003. Team size has dropped from 25.1 to 22.8, which seems insignificant, but it's almost a 10% decrease in that time.

Question:Since Jr. High kids are on HS teams, are they included in the numbers? Interesting that MN has the same amount of teams as they did in 2002-2003, but have less wrestlers. When did JHI start in MN? Was it before 2002-2003 or after?

While we disagree on cutting weights, we do agree on some things. Locking teams into 7/7 hurts teams. Like Littleguy says, having 7 conference duals locking up all of our spots makes no sense for us or any of the teams we wrestle. I'm on board for shortening the season (starting after Thanksgiving would be fine with me). Co-ops are fine, but are tough to administer. It isn't often that the "back half" or non-host school ever comes back to have their own program. I'm not sure the descent program is making us lose kids, but it is tough on coaches to keep track of the paperwork.

If Pennsylvania is thinking of having less weights, then I think it is more likely to happen. Ohio, which is also a strong state, has 100 teams since 2002, but 2400 less kids.

[MNbadger]

I think too many of us remember things wishfully.  I wrestled in Wisconsin during the 12 weight era (mid seventies).
I never remember teams having the full jv squads people talk about.  In fact, teams often forfeited weights on varsity. And I just remembered, our "heavyweight" weighed 185.

[littleguy301]

Get rid of the 7/7
Get rid of the decent plan but keep minimum weight
Look into co oping to keep programs
All on board of starting after Thanksgiving


I think if you get rid of 7/7 you maybe able to find teams that have the same problem as your school as in fordeits.. this would allow team to look for teams that work for them but it also puts alot more strain on coaches and ad to not set in concrete a schedule a few weeks after the previous season is done. You may have to plan on the fly as the season starts.

I dont want to co OP but I'd that saved wrestling for a school they all on board with it.

[padre]

I think too many of us remember things wishfully.  I wrestled in Wisconsin during the 12 weight era (mid seventies).
I never remember teams having the full jv squads people talk about.  In fact, teams often forfeited weights on varsity. And I just remembered, our "heavyweight" weighed 185.

That's how I remember it from the 80s also.  Plenty of forfeits.

[npope]

I think too many of us remember things wishfully.  I wrestled in Wisconsin during the 12 weight era (mid seventies).
I never remember teams having the full jv squads people talk about.  In fact, teams often forfeited weights on varsity. And I just remembered, our "heavyweight" weighed 185.

That's how I remember it from the 80s also.  Plenty of forfeits.

Not sure why our memories are so different of those times, but I wrestled in the 70s and coached in the 80s and I don't recollect many FF. Sure, saw the occasional FF here and there, but they were far from the norm.

[padre]

I think too many of us remember things wishfully.  I wrestled in Wisconsin during the 12 weight era (mid seventies).
I never remember teams having the full jv squads people talk about.  In fact, teams often forfeited weights on varsity. And I just remembered, our "heavyweight" weighed 185.

That's how I remember it from the 80s also.  Plenty of forfeits.

Not sure why our memories are so different of those times, but I wrestled in the 70s and coached in the 80s and I don't recollect many FF. Sure, saw the occasional FF here and there, but they were far from the norm.

Our team never had one.  Coach would look through the halls to find guys to fill weights...that's how I started.  But we did dual many teams that had multiple forfeits.

[factfinder]

The National Federation of High School sports is up 30,000 wrestlers since going to 14 weight classes in 2002.
Last year Boys wrestling was up 1860 boys making it the 3rd fastest growing boys sport behind Soccer and Track. We also gained 62 teams last year, so the NHFS is supper happy with the growth of  wrestling.
I am super excited to see the growth of Girls wrestling, but maybe the Boys wrestling coaches association should spend all there time focusing how to fix the boys side and turn over the girls wrestling to group of Girls coaches??

In MN there are almost 1600 more boys wrestling then in WI, but they have 90 less teams because there small teams have co-oped. I could make a much stronger argument for Co-oping then cutting weight classes. 8 & 9 man football was designed to stop Co-oping, well it dint work!! teams are still Co-oping.

Wisconsin doesn't need cut weight classes.. Wisconsin needs to fix the HS league.
Before we cut one weight I would fight harder for JR high inclusion, get rid of 7&7 and let coaches design schedules that will help recruit, Fight to get rid of the decent plan, shorten the season by a couple weeks, co-op and share the coaching duties and have more time to develop wrestlers.

There were 239,845 boys wrestling in 2002-2003
There were 247,441 boys wrestling in 2018-2019

In the past 16 seasons, we've increased numbers by 7596.

However, teams have gotten smaller. There are 1300 more teams in the country now than there were in 2002-2003. Team size has dropped from 25.1 to 22.8, which seems insignificant, but it's almost a 10% decrease in that time.

Question:Since Jr. High kids are on HS teams, are they included in the numbers? Interesting that MN has the same amount of teams as they did in 2002-2003, but have less wrestlers. When did JHI start in MN? Was it before 2002-2003 or after?

While we disagree on cutting weights, we do agree on some things. Locking teams into 7/7 hurts teams. Like Littleguy says, having 7 conference duals locking up all of our spots makes no sense for us or any of the teams we wrestle. I'm on board for shortening the season (starting after Thanksgiving would be fine with me). Co-ops are fine, but are tough to administer. It isn't often that the "back half" or non-host school ever comes back to have their own program. I'm not sure the descent program is making us lose kids, but it is tough on coaches to keep track of the paperwork.

If Pennsylvania is thinking of having less weights, then I think it is more likely to happen. Ohio, which is also a strong state, has 100 teams since 2002, but 2400 less kids.

You are right the numbers are only up 7500 from 2002, but the numbers went up after they raised it 13 as well. Previous to that the numbers were in the 220,000 rang so the increase in opportunities has proven to work.
In 2000 Penn had 8400 kids out and last year they had 9460 so I have no clue why they are looking to eliminate a weight? I know they complain a lot about the 106 pound weight class and all the FF they have at that weight. But based on there numbers maybe they need to move there weights and not cut weights, I believe with strong certainty that is what the NFHS is telling states to do!!!
They are steadfast in holding strong at 14 weights but are OK with states moving the 14 weights to fit their demographics. I know some state are asking for 103 to come back but they struggle to fill 220, so clearly they isn't a one size fits all solution.
I do think 14 weight classes has proven to have worked with providing very stable numbers and steady growth over the past 20. However each state needs to make sure the weight classes fit there demographic's.
Last thought! if most states are stable or seeing some growth and Wisconsin is declining wouldn't the question be what do we need to change? Not lets stay the same but cut opportunities?

[DocWrestling]

1) Numbers are u nationally because there is now wrestling in states that never had it.  Wrestling participants are going down in states that have long had wrestling but going up in states that never had wrestling
2) Minnesota only has more wrestlers because of Junior high inclusion. I am for junior high inclusion only because middle school wrestling is so messed up in this state and is the biggest problem wrestling has.  That is when we lose the most kids.  Would Wisconsin have more wrestlers than Minnesota if we had JHI.  We are also running low on coaches.  Would be nice to have all high school and middle school coaches in the same room working together
3) I am not against Co-ops but it bothers me when someone states that cutting weight classes is cutting opportunities.  If we cut 2 weight classes we are cutting 2 varsity spots but not the opportunity to wrestle.  If we cancel programs to co-op we are cutting 14 varsity spots and we are cutting wrestling opportunities because many families cannot make it work to have their kids practicing in another community.

I do believe that if you have 10 weight classes and JHI you would have very few forfeits and would likely have full JV squads for the most part.   My other point is that JV weight classes should not be the same as varsity.  They should all be maybe 5-8 lbs lighter than the varsity weight classes.  This would make JV work well with JHI.  Some teams would likely come close to filling a JV2 squad with 10 weight classes.

Then have 14 weight classes for the individual state tournament series. 

[DarkKnight]

As many of the guys said, there were plenty of forfeits back in the day.

cutting opportunities is not what we need to do. 14 is a good number.

[Chris Hansen]

I've never liked letting facts get in the way of a good story. But with that said, I have a collection of all of the dual meet programs and tournament programs throughout the 1980s and 1990s and so on that Division 1 Hudson High School was in. 
If you wanted to truly know how full rosters were with the teams at say the 1987 New Richmond Invite or a typical dual between Hudson and Menomonie in 1991 or the Division 1 Regional 1 in Sectional A in 1985, I could tell you.

Hint- the family with the last name Forfeit must have been Catholic. 

Unfortunately, we will all be dead before I get back into my office.