I think it's time...

[Coach V]

Not what I said. I said we are not talking about JHI. I can see how you thought that's what I meant. I meant anything not aligned with the national federation we will not do because they want a vote. Its a general statement that we were told last night. 

[Ghetto]

I think it is a horrible idea. Just for fun though what would your weight classes be?

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

Bring on the small guy argument. I am just putting the data out there. I am not against the small guy. I'd rather there was a smallest weight around 108.

[Barou]

I think it is a horrible idea. Just for fun though what would your weight classes be?

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

Bring on the small guy argument. I am just putting the data out there. I am not against the small guy. I'd rather there was a smallest weight around 108.

IMO, if we went to 12 weight classes:

105, 115, then college weight classes

[Barou]

JHI would have to be voted on by the schools not the WIAA.
It can't happen until the Football format changes, you can't just do JHI for one sport.
It's all or nothing

The best female BB player in MN this year is an 8th grader, and many of there good hockey players are 8th graders. The big numbers in football make it almost impossible for a 7th or 8th grader play HS football.

Those are great examples of high quality athletes competing at a high level.  So one of the best girls BB players in the state of MN is not only prepared for varsity competition but is one of the best in the state.  But if she was across the river in WI our coaches would believe she is not physically/mentally prepared for varsity competition.  

Curious, why can't it happen until football's format changes?  And why is it all or nothing?

[Ghetto]

I would much rather see a ton of FF before eliminating little guys that may not have a spot in other sports.

I don't want to eliminate the little guy either. If there wasn't a weight for me in the 80's, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because I would never have tried the sport.

[Barou]

Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport. 

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

[Barou]

I think we all agree that HS football in Florida is one of the top football states in the country and way better than WI.

They have JHI and here is one example of an athlete competing as a 7th grader:

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/prep-rally/florida-7th-grade-football-star-may-verge-becoming-125951993.html

[CLC FAN]

I took the bodyfat tests for every kid for the past 5 years and broke them into 14, 13, and 12 equal groups. Here's what the weights would be if they were correlated with what kids weighed at the bodyfat test:

14 weights: 113, 122, 128, 134, 140, 145, 151, 157, 164, 173, 184, 200, 226, 285
13 weights: 113, 123, 130, 136, 142, 148, 154, 161, 170, 181, 197, 224, 285
12 weights: 114, 124, 131, 138, 144, 151, 158, 167, 178, 194, 221, 285

See, this is why research is so important.  I am floored that we have had that many kids in the upperweights over the last 5 years.  According to those numbers, 25% of our wrestlers are at or above 194 pounds!  I remember when the change was made from 189/215/HWT to 182/195/220/HWT, lots of people claimed we'd never find enough kids that size.  Looks like we have found just as many big guys at or above 194 as we have little guys at or below 131.  I'd say this is evidence that the perceived "truths" about wrestling don't always align with what is actually going on.

Even if this thread generates no action, a big thanks to Ghetto for getting us to at least look at the weight distribution we are currently operating with.

[npope]

Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport.  

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

Personally, I don't have a side in this debate, but I think you are wrong to characterize those on the other side as being "close-minded and under educated on the subject." I can see very clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI. It's the same argument that people can put out there related to trying to accelerate your little one through academic studies at an early age. What's the rush? So junior can do eighth grade math when 10 years old. So Sally, age 12, wins a state high school cross country title? So what? Those things are temporal - they pass - they are fleeting. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they should do it. There are arguments both ways, so please don't try to paint the other side as somehow myopic or uninformed; their vision as to what is best for kids might actually be more mature than those who think differently. And to be fair, I think there are also equally compelling arguments going the other way.

[ramjet]

Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

This I agree with.

Burnout happens but it is also easily overcome with recognition and changing things up.

You can most definately see the young wrestlers that have family behind them they usually see success.

But I do disagree. The coaches in this state are not even close to being on the same page. Poll them on JHI. I would love to see that poll result.

I will also tell you that HS football in Wisconsin is faltering and many more programs will be in the 8 man or dropping all together at the D3 level. Watch this over the next 5 years.

[ramjet]

See the entire concept of grade level qualification is so inefficient.

Why? Because the potential age difference in a specific grade can vary tremendously.

The absolute best way to handle this is specific age catagorizing and allowance based on age NOT grade.

A super age 8th grader can tear up an entire football field on there own.

We have parents that hold back thier children just for the sake of sports.

We have super aged freshman and even Seniors sure they cap the upper age but they do not cap categorization in between.

WWF has it correct age catagorization not GRADE.

Do this and you open things up tremendously and take away the "poor little 7th or 8th grader argument.

[bigoil]

Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

Proof, I can think of more than states that would be less than WI in football (ME, VT, CT, MA, NH, ND, SD, MT, WY, HI, AK, ID, DE) and more that would be on par with WI.

Barou, FL does not allow JHI for larger schools.

[Barou]

Barou,
It's not all on the coaches, it's the beer drinking culture of WI. I have lived all over the nation and I currently work athletes in Conn, AZ, MN, WI and Indiana and no other state as is overdramatic and concerned with the term burnout like we are here in WI.
Coaches don't drive kids to practice, IMO parents in WI are the biggest hold up!! How many parents out side of wrestling would be ok with JHI? None
Max Prep has ranked WI football as one of the bottum 10 states in the nation, it's not just a wrestling issue.

That is a very interesting perspective.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe because I garnish a little respect among parents with athletes and have explained the benefits of JHI, I've always "convinced" them.  And it's a small sample size.  I think maybe because I live 15 minutes from the WI/MN border that makes a difference too.  Reading stories about junior high athletes competing at a high level in MN isn't anything new.

Very unfortunate that we have that type of culture.  JHI is a win, win across the board.  Generally speaking, the naysayers are close-minded and under educated about the subject and it's literally evidence based right next to us.

Totally not surprised with your observation with the term burnout in WI.  I can go a step further and say the term is overused in wrestling in WI more than any other sport.  

Doesn't surprise me with the football ranking.

Personally, I don't have a side in this debate, but I think you are wrong to characterize those on the other side as being "close-minded and under educated on the subject." I can see very clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI. It's the same argument that people can put out there related to trying to accelerate your little one through academic studies at an early age. What's the rush? So junior can do eighth grade math when 10 years old. So Sally, age 12, wins a state high school cross country title? So what? Those things are temporal - they pass - they are fleeting. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they should do it. There are arguments both ways, so please don't try to paint the other side as somehow myopic or uninformed; their vision as to what is best for kids might actually be more mature than those who think differently. And to be fair, I think there are also equally compelling arguments going the other way.

And to be clear there is NO requirement that junior HAS to compete at a higher level.  I completely agree just because one can doesn't mean they should.  Decisions to compete at a varsity or junior varsity level come down to athlete assessment, coaching recommendation, and parent involvement.  I remember coaching a 7th grader that was super talented as a junior high wrestler but kind of a fringe varsity wrestler.  His parents did not want him competing on varsity even if he was able to win a spot as they didn't think he was physically and mentally developed for a varsity schedule.  We were all on the same page.  In certain dual situations we spoke with the parents about bringing him up to varsity as his opponent would be another 7th grader and a kid he has already competed with.  They agreed.  He ended up being a varsity starter as an 8th grader and a two time state place winner.  He didn't burn out.  His brother was more prepared for the grind as a 7th grader and was a starter from 7th - 12th grade.  Multiple time state place winner.  He didn't burnout either.  Point, JHI isn't mandatory.  I think that point gets lost a lot.  It's as simple as this - If we have a state filled with competent coaches that will make the best decisions for all their student athletes regardless of age, it's a great tool to utilize for multiple reasons that I and many others have suggested many times over the years.  If we don't have competent coaches across our state then it's a mistake because it won't be utilized effectively. 

If a coach doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize it in your program.  If a school doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize in any of your programs.

Curious, what are the clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI?

[npope]

And to be clear there is NO requirement that junior HAS to compete at a higher level.  I completely agree just because one can doesn't mean they should.  Decisions to compete at a varsity or junior varsity level come down to athlete assessment, coaching recommendation, and parent involvement.  I remember coaching a 7th grader that was super talented as a junior high wrestler but kind of a fringe varsity wrestler.  His parents did not want him competing on varsity even if he was able to win a spot as they didn't think he was physically and mentally developed for a varsity schedule.  We were all on the same page.  In certain dual situations we spoke with the parents about bringing him up to varsity as his opponent would be another 7th grader and a kid he has already competed with.  They agreed.  He ended up being a varsity starter as an 8th grader and a two time state place winner.  He didn't burn out.  His brother was more prepared for the grind as a 7th grader and was a starter from 7th - 12th grade.  Multiple time state place winner.  He didn't burnout either.  Point, JHI isn't mandatory.  I think that point gets lost a lot.  It's as simple as this - If we have a state filled with competent coaches that will make the best decisions for all their student athletes regardless of age, it's a great tool to utilize for multiple reasons that I and many others have suggested many times over the years.  If we don't have competent coaches across our state then it's a mistake because it won't be utilized effectively. 

If a coach doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize it in your program.  If a school doesn't "believe in it" then don't utilize in any of your programs.

Curious, what are the clear and compelling arguments in favor of no JHI?

That's a very good response, Barou.

[bigG]

I certainly trust most coaches aren't going to try to turn the middle level kid, with seasonal interest, into the national qualifier; and won't kill the kid who wants the bigger matches. More options are good.

I've had several middle schoolers who were ready for varsity. They just were. Others not so much.

The only situation that I might worry about is the pressure to fill a varsity spot with a not-ready kid. I doubt that would be a major deterrent, though.