WIAA and possible proposed changes

[Barou]

Ram+1

Minnesota idea sounds interesting.

Both have good points to make wrestling better.

Doc- is correct about the 80%. The % varies by team and the year. Kids have to be sold on the 'why' nowadays instead of just doing what they are told, because their are so many easier options and some parents like easy instead of what's better for the young man or woman. imho



Our proposal of the Super Regional had one hang up.The POSSIBILITY of the 6th match in a day is the hang up. It was unanimous all the way to the board of control OR whatever the last step is.

Have they considered waving the 5 match limit for the event?

[ramjet]

Ram+1

Minnesota idea sounds interesting.

Both have good points to make wrestling better.

Doc- is correct about the 80%. The % varies by team and the year. Kids have to be sold on the 'why' nowadays instead of just doing what they are told, because their are so many easier options and some parents like easy instead of what's better for the young man or woman. imho



Our proposal of the Super Regional had one hang up.The POSSIBILITY of the 6th match in a day is the hang up. It was unanimous all the way to the board of control OR whatever the last step is.

Yes I see that is possible however not probable with numbers where they are now. RULE?

[Numbers]

Ram+1

Minnesota idea sounds interesting.

Both have good points to make wrestling better.

Doc- is correct about the 80%. The % varies by team and the year. Kids have to be sold on the 'why' nowadays instead of just doing what they are told, because their are so many easier options and some parents like easy instead of what's better for the young man or woman. imho



Our proposal of the Super Regional had one hang up.The POSSIBILITY of the 6th match in a day is the hang up. It was unanimous all the way to the board of control OR whatever the last step is.

Maybe the National level need to act first.  Nationally adopt allowing a 6th match in a day for individual tournaments where the bracket format would only allow for ONE POSSIBLE 6th match in a day per weight class.  This may allow for a true 2nd or true 4th match and benefit the sport in my opinion.  Maybe it would be TWO POSSIBLE 6th matches per weight class if there was a true 2nd and true 4th match (if top 4 qualified for state)?

It would still prevent the opposite extreme of scheduling a 6th dual meet in a one day 7 team round robin dual meet tournament.  I expect allowing a 6th match without restrictions would have major opponents.

[DocWrestling]

That is a great idea that makes to much sense to get it passed!

[bigG]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

How do we sell the coaches on it? I'm sure they've thought it over; and still haven't pulled the trigger on this.

I like the idea.

What it takes is one of the Coaches Association Board Members to really believe in a proposal, and then they Champion it. I have put many a proposal to gether. the only one I got through was wrestle backs to third at State. Still want Double Elimination. Just can not get someone to really Champion it.

there ya go. Might be easier said than done. Still, if anyone would know, it's be you, Woody.

[ramjet]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

How do we sell the coaches on it? I'm sure they've thought it over; and still haven't pulled the trigger on this.

I like the idea.

What it takes is one of the Coaches Association Board Members to really believe in a proposal, and then they Champion it. I have put many a proposal to gether. the only one I got through was wrestle backs to third at State. Still want Double Elimination. Just can not get someone to really Champion it.

there ya go. Might be easier said than done. Still, if anyone would know, it's be you, Woody.

With all due respect Big G change is NEVER easy but the change has to come from within. 

[MNbadger]

You have your opinion and I really have no horse in the race. My one issue with this post is that YOU are the one who gets emotional not Handles or myself. I am just pointing out a streamlined, time tested method to a wrestling state tournament series that has been very successful for a long, long time.  It also is occurring in a state that is very similar as far a population and such. Also, there is not more travel with the way it is done in MN.  States do things differently.  Honestly though, how can you not look at this and see how much simpler it is?  How can you say it is more expensive?  No matter what, you have wrestlers, fans, coaches, referees, and facilities.  That is the same no matter what.

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

Absolutely not, my suggestions where simple and could be easily implemented and address the issue.  Where as your and HandlesII proposals are huge wholesale changes that would require a tremendous amount of cost and change and might actually reduce opportunity and make things difficult with overnight travel and two day tournaments. My issue with you and HandlesII and some other folks who I evidently annoy is that you want to use emotion to make decisions instead of common sense and simplicity.

See if anyone thinks those kids who got a FF to advance to Sectional had sense of self pride or accomplishment may be surprised to know that in fact they did not and in some cases where embarrassed. Sure they wrestled all year and they showed up so they should get credit for that. Lets think about this; if they go to the Sectional having not wrestled a match and get destroyed do you think that great sense of pride and accomplishment is still there? Are you so blinded to think they just forgot how they got there? Take that same young man or woman and give them two or three tough matches to win and go to the Sectional and they feel far more deserving and accomplished than the other way. I do not blame the wrestler for this. I blame the WIAA and the coaches who do not want to upgrade the level of competition and the journey to the Sectional for this. They have this misplaced belief that just getting to the Sectionals is THE prize is the goal. Really? When I said some coaches (they know who they are) seems selfish in that they look for a 10 excuses why they cannot get a or several wrestlers to the State Tournament. Yet on the other hand several (many) coaches seek out the best competition encourage off season work and teach a work ethic that shows wrestlers they have work hard to earn that opportunity and hard work has its rewards. Sure you can get a pay check just for showing up for work people do that every day. But those who advance and are top performers they are the top earners weather they are blue collar or executive they work harder they earn more. Hard work = rewards the test is the Tournament series. The same holds true for wrestling yet we have folks saying just showing up should be enough?

I disagree, again its not the kids fault its a structure of how the Regionals are setup but thats on the the Coaches Association and the WIAA and I say they can improve wrestling if they have large enough set to do it.

[bigG]

Rams solution is by far the easiest and most effective. Everyone still competes, but you get the best kids to sectionals. This is good for the fans and the wrestlers. It also reduces the number of refs needed, which allows better refs to be used. This is good for everyone! It also will eliminate byes at the sectional tournament, which again is good for everyone! The only con is that with 12-16 schools in each regional you would need bigger host schools. Feel like this could easily be taken care of.

How do we sell the coaches on it? I'm sure they've thought it over; and still haven't pulled the trigger on this.

I like the idea.

What it takes is one of the Coaches Association Board Members to really believe in a proposal, and then they Champion it. I have put many a proposal to gether. the only one I got through was wrestle backs to third at State. Still want Double Elimination. Just can not get someone to really Champion it.

there ya go. Might be easier said than done. Still, if anyone would know, it's be you, Woody.

With all due respect Big G change is NEVER easy but the change has to come from within. 

LOL! True. Still Woody knows what he's talkin' about; so if we want WIAA change, maybe Coaches Assoc. is the way to go. (Sounds like the only way to go.)

[wrastle63]

You have your opinion and I really have no horse in the race. My one issue with this post is that YOU are the one who gets emotional not Handles or myself. I am just pointing out a streamlined, time tested method to a wrestling state tournament series that has been very successful for a long, long time.  It also is occurring in a state that is very similar as far a population and such. Also, there is not more travel with the way it is done in MN.  States do things differently.  Honestly though, how can you not look at this and see how much simpler it is?  How can you say it is more expensive?  No matter what, you have wrestlers, fans, coaches, referees, and facilities.  That is the same no matter what.

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

Absolutely not, my suggestions where simple and could be easily implemented and address the issue.  Where as your and HandlesII proposals are huge wholesale changes that would require a tremendous amount of cost and change and might actually reduce opportunity and make things difficult with overnight travel and two day tournaments. My issue with you and HandlesII and some other folks who I evidently annoy is that you want to use emotion to make decisions instead of common sense and simplicity.

See if anyone thinks those kids who got a FF to advance to Sectional had sense of self pride or accomplishment may be surprised to know that in fact they did not and in some cases where embarrassed. Sure they wrestled all year and they showed up so they should get credit for that. Lets think about this; if they go to the Sectional having not wrestled a match and get destroyed do you think that great sense of pride and accomplishment is still there? Are you so blinded to think they just forgot how they got there? Take that same young man or woman and give them two or three tough matches to win and go to the Sectional and they feel far more deserving and accomplished than the other way. I do not blame the wrestler for this. I blame the WIAA and the coaches who do not want to upgrade the level of competition and the journey to the Sectional for this. They have this misplaced belief that just getting to the Sectionals is THE prize is the goal. Really? When I said some coaches (they know who they are) seems selfish in that they look for a 10 excuses why they cannot get a or several wrestlers to the State Tournament. Yet on the other hand several (many) coaches seek out the best competition encourage off season work and teach a work ethic that shows wrestlers they have work hard to earn that opportunity and hard work has its rewards. Sure you can get a pay check just for showing up for work people do that every day. But those who advance and are top performers they are the top earners weather they are blue collar or executive they work harder they earn more. Hard work = rewards the test is the Tournament series. The same holds true for wrestling yet we have folks saying just showing up should be enough?

I disagree, again its not the kids fault its a structure of how the Regionals are setup but thats on the the Coaches Association and the WIAA and I say they can improve wrestling if they have large enough set to do it.

But it is a huge change and wouldn't be passed because of that. Whereas combining two regionals does almost nothing, but create positives. The only minus would be the 6th match in a day rule. Wonder if there is a way to just do a Friday night round for those people.

[ramjet]

You have your opinion and I really have no horse in the race. My one issue with this post is that YOU are the one who gets emotional not Handles or myself. I am just pointing out a streamlined, time tested method to a wrestling state tournament series that has been very successful for a long, long time.  It also is occurring in a state that is very similar as far a population and such. Also, there is not more travel with the way it is done in MN.  States do things differently.  Honestly though, how can you not look at this and see how much simpler it is?  How can you say it is more expensive?  No matter what, you have wrestlers, fans, coaches, referees, and facilities.  That is the same no matter what.

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

Absolutely not, my suggestions where simple and could be easily implemented and address the issue.  Where as your and HandlesII proposals are huge wholesale changes that would require a tremendous amount of cost and change and might actually reduce opportunity and make things difficult with overnight travel and two day tournaments. My issue with you and HandlesII and some other folks who I evidently annoy is that you want to use emotion to make decisions instead of common sense and simplicity.

See if anyone thinks those kids who got a FF to advance to Sectional had sense of self pride or accomplishment may be surprised to know that in fact they did not and in some cases where embarrassed. Sure they wrestled all year and they showed up so they should get credit for that. Lets think about this; if they go to the Sectional having not wrestled a match and get destroyed do you think that great sense of pride and accomplishment is still there? Are you so blinded to think they just forgot how they got there? Take that same young man or woman and give them two or three tough matches to win and go to the Sectional and they feel far more deserving and accomplished than the other way. I do not blame the wrestler for this. I blame the WIAA and the coaches who do not want to upgrade the level of competition and the journey to the Sectional for this. They have this misplaced belief that just getting to the Sectionals is THE prize is the goal. Really? When I said some coaches (they know who they are) seems selfish in that they look for a 10 excuses why they cannot get a or several wrestlers to the State Tournament. Yet on the other hand several (many) coaches seek out the best competition encourage off season work and teach a work ethic that shows wrestlers they have work hard to earn that opportunity and hard work has its rewards. Sure you can get a pay check just for showing up for work people do that every day. But those who advance and are top performers they are the top earners weather they are blue collar or executive they work harder they earn more. Hard work = rewards the test is the Tournament series. The same holds true for wrestling yet we have folks saying just showing up should be enough?

I disagree, again its not the kids fault its a structure of how the Regionals are setup but thats on the the Coaches Association and the WIAA and I say they can improve wrestling if they have large enough set to do it.

You have no horse in the race so that takes care if that........

[thequad]

If you keep one thing the way it is now and that is if you loose your first match your out of the tournament. Then you don't have to worry about the 6 match rule.

[MNbadger]

But I do still care about my home state and ahve friends there.  There also is the idea of making wrestling better in WI and more competitive with MN and other surrounding states. 

You have your opinion and I really have no horse in the race. My one issue with this post is that YOU are the one who gets emotional not Handles or myself. I am just pointing out a streamlined, time tested method to a wrestling state tournament series that has been very successful for a long, long time.  It also is occurring in a state that is very similar as far a population and such. Also, there is not more travel with the way it is done in MN.  States do things differently.  Honestly though, how can you not look at this and see how much simpler it is?  How can you say it is more expensive?  No matter what, you have wrestlers, fans, coaches, referees, and facilities.  That is the same no matter what.

Why do you see this as a MN vs WI BATTLE?  You sound kind of juvenile here.  The system in MN has been working for many, many years. 

Absolutely not, my suggestions where simple and could be easily implemented and address the issue.  Where as your and HandlesII proposals are huge wholesale changes that would require a tremendous amount of cost and change and might actually reduce opportunity and make things difficult with overnight travel and two day tournaments. My issue with you and HandlesII and some other folks who I evidently annoy is that you want to use emotion to make decisions instead of common sense and simplicity.

See if anyone thinks those kids who got a FF to advance to Sectional had sense of self pride or accomplishment may be surprised to know that in fact they did not and in some cases where embarrassed. Sure they wrestled all year and they showed up so they should get credit for that. Lets think about this; if they go to the Sectional having not wrestled a match and get destroyed do you think that great sense of pride and accomplishment is still there? Are you so blinded to think they just forgot how they got there? Take that same young man or woman and give them two or three tough matches to win and go to the Sectional and they feel far more deserving and accomplished than the other way. I do not blame the wrestler for this. I blame the WIAA and the coaches who do not want to upgrade the level of competition and the journey to the Sectional for this. They have this misplaced belief that just getting to the Sectionals is THE prize is the goal. Really? When I said some coaches (they know who they are) seems selfish in that they look for a 10 excuses why they cannot get a or several wrestlers to the State Tournament. Yet on the other hand several (many) coaches seek out the best competition encourage off season work and teach a work ethic that shows wrestlers they have work hard to earn that opportunity and hard work has its rewards. Sure you can get a pay check just for showing up for work people do that every day. But those who advance and are top performers they are the top earners weather they are blue collar or executive they work harder they earn more. Hard work = rewards the test is the Tournament series. The same holds true for wrestling yet we have folks saying just showing up should be enough?

I disagree, again its not the kids fault its a structure of how the Regionals are setup but thats on the the Coaches Association and the WIAA and I say they can improve wrestling if they have large enough set to do it.

You have no horse in the race so that takes care if that........

[ramjet]

Well excellent then you agree combining the regionals and not over X locate things with huge wholesale changes. That's is so cool that we finally agree on something. 

[Kyle]

Sorry Kyle that's a liberal mind set I expect that from MNbadger he is rabid with it.

So do you think those kids who get to Sectionals and get teched in the first period or pinned in less than minute think they deserve to be there? Do you think that expereince encourages them to run out and recruit more wrestlers? Again this ridiculous "everyone gets a trophy" mentality is not well thought out or even executed. Umm hate to tell you in the working world you snooze you loose. So you think that a kid who only puts in only time in the season and maybe sketchy at that should get or deserves as much as a wrestler who puts in allot of season wrestling and commitment? That's what is happening geographical location Amy work against that kid and YES those wrestlers should get that chance. Keep your watered down everyone deserves a trophy attitude for youth soccer because that's where it belongs not on the wrestling mat. The way things are setup certainly work themselves out at sectionals but watered down Regionals most certainly waters down the accomplishment of getting to Sectionals. NOBODY remembers the kid who walked through the Crivitz Regional and gets pinned in thier first two matches at Sectionals. So tell me again without the feel good emotion how that helps that wrestler or wrestling?

Ramjet
Does being a jerk, calling people names and putting words in their mouth make you feel better? I am not a liberal. I don't believe in trophies for everyone past fourth grade and I had my wrestling career ended while a wrestler that I beat three times went on in a weaker regional. Trust me that I understand your point. You don't know it all. People will disagree with your priorities. This is supposed to be fun at this level. Every wrestler deserves to take their shot at the end of the season. It will never be perfect. People like you that think everything can be made perfect with their idea of a new rule always ruin it in the end.
Kyle

Sorry but I did not call you a Liberal I said it was a liberal mind set there is a difference. Sorry if you felt offended.

No but this idea its a great accomplishment by walking to the middle of the mat and get to to go Sectional just for showing up is as much as an accomplishment as a wrestler battling three matches and qualifying?

"Fun" is that what you think the experience is all about? (Sure thats part of it.)

I think wrestling is so much more than that.

The Regional structure needs to improve its stinks.

I do not think cutting weights is the answer but improving the competition and quality and they will come.

What gets a crowd excited about wrestling? A competitive dual meet between top flight programs..........Why? Competition and quality wrestling.

This is a problem that needs a fix.

I entered the discussion when you guys were eliminateing kids for having a poor record without even wrestling a match. You are still incorrectly assuming my mindset. I want every kid to take their shot and go out by losing, not just being told that they are not good enough.
Kyle

[MNbadger]

Every kid gets the same shot in our system.