Reducing Weight Classes

[padre]

Ghetto did not use the CDC data.  He did one better. He used the data of the kids who actually went out for wrestling and did the fat test.  That makes complete sense.  Often it is discussed to just use math each year and have the weight classes change each year based on the kids that actually go out for wrestling and evenly distributing them.

Many of you bring up the small guys and moving up the weight class does affect them but that is 1% of all wrestlers and catering to that 1% may affect the overall sport.

I believe that many kids do just want to wrestle and be part of a team.  They have no realistic dreams of making t to state.  We need to improve the "team concept" at both varsity and JV if we want to improve numbers.  The best teams have the best numbers and they have tons of kids that could wrestle varsity somewhere else but they work had for their turn when maybe they are a senior.  They don't quit because they earn it.  There are tons of kids that are given a varsity spot at other schools and then quit. 

The sport cannot cater to the "elite" wrestlers or simply they will have nobody to wrestle.  If you are an elite wrestler probably 80% of your matches are against kids that will never make it to state and are not "elite".

Elite wrestlers at schools with no practice partners do not advance as fast unless they have a coach or club time to supplement practice.

If the sport is better because a small wrestler has to wait until he is a junior to fit a weight class then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first.  If a kid weighs 210 and has to wrestle 275 lbers all the time then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first.

And it only has to be unfortunate for all in team duals.  Keep 106 and 220 for individual tournaments and state tournaments.  So a freshman that weighs 100lbs is to light to wrestle 113 for 8 duals his freshman year.  I am sure he will still enjoy wrestling as he grows and he competes in individual tournaments as a freshman.

I would eliminate 106, 220, and spread out the middle weights to lose another weight class and have 11 weight classses for duals.  For individual tournaments I would keep the exact same weight classses.

My question at the end of the day is does it "help" the sport?  Does cutting weight classes bring in more kids?  Are duals really going to be much different?  The answer to all those questions is no.  And in some cases could hinder the sports numbers as the further we get away from a small weight class the more kids we may deter out of the sport.  Whether you care to admit it or not there are some opportunities that are lost.  There are kids that maybe aren't varsity ready on teams but thats much of the reason they are out for the sport....nearly every kid in every sport basically wants to be on varsity,

I think every sport is designated for the "elite" athlete otherwise there wouldn't be a state championship. 

While it may bring less forfeits I'm not sure it fixes anything.

[Numbers]

So with PA going to 12 weights in the future with 110 being the lowest, does anyone know if PA also gives growth allowance pounds the second half of the season?

With growth allowance Wisconsin is at 109 for state so there would not be much of a difference.

[DocWrestling]

Honestly I am not interested in bringing more kids into wrestling.  That is very difficult plus we already have plenty doing youth wrestling.  The real problem is keeping them in the sport not bringing more into the sport.  I do believe that the lack of team competitions hurts the sport.  If I am a .500 or less wrestler I would just love a way to compete for my team and help my team.  That chance is not there now.  95% of matches wrestled in this state have no affect on anything for the team outcome.  Almost every individual tournament has no more than two maybe three teams that can win the title.  Everyone also knows who is going to win 95% of the duals.  As a .500 wrestler my matches mean nothing so I go and compete for myself at duals and then I go 1-2 at tournaments and I have to sit in the stands for another 6 hours watching my teammates. 

Right now wrestling is an individual sport.  If that continues to trend we will see fewer and fewer wrestlers.  I believe wrestling grows when the team concept grows.  There used to be junior high/middle school duals.  Gone and numbers have decreased.  There used to be JV duals.  Gone and numbers have decreased.  Now we have 30 minute duals and numbers are decreasing.

[Bellytobelly]

Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.

[MNbadger]

The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.

Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.

[factfinder]

I just wanted to throw a few comments about this.  I can tell you both of my sons were under 106 as Freshman. We even held Preston back when he was 4 for various reasons, mostly being small.  He as an 8th grader weighed 83 pounds and he should of been a Freshman.  Thankfully that extra year was the trick and he grew to be around 103 this past season naturally.  Still small and it showed even more at the end. 

A few other wrestlers who did not wrestle as Freshman because of being to small.  The Koontz boys from Point.  Aric Furseth wrestled but was tiny.

To the poster who stated that if you keep raising the lower limit it will ultimately have an effect on the 120-138 range weight classes i absolutely agree!!

We tried changing weights before to 14 which was ridiculous then all for the football player.  Had nothing to do with data.  Changing to 12 now is an over reach. I would be comfortable going to 13 again.

106
113
120
126
132
138
145
154
164
175
190
215
unlimited

I like something very similar
105
115
Do to the amount of FF at these two weights a little separation should occur.
121
128
136
144
153
164
175
190
210
HWT max of 270 what HS needs to weigh more then 270?

If weights change they are all going to need to change, if we have to go to 12 weights I think the separation should look similar to my post.

[Bellytobelly]

The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.

Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.

You are still "turning kids away". If you want to say that a kid that is over 285 should have to suck it up and make 285 then a kid that is 100 can suck it up or bulk up and put on muscle to get up to the weight.

[factfinder]

The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.

Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.

You are still "turning kids away". If you want to say that a kid that is over 285 should have to suck it up and make 285 then a kid that is 100 can suck it up or bulk up and put on muscle to get up to the weight.

As a parent of a potential HWT I don't think trying to get a kid out obesity and trying to get a tiny kid bigger is the same ask? A 17-18 yr old boy at 6'4 has zero business above 270.

[MNbadger]

WAY easier to drop the fat.   People throw around the term "bulk up".   As I pointed out in an earlier post, it is easy to get fat but difficult to add muscle mass.

[wrastle63]

https://tribhssn.triblive.com/piaa-approves-weight-class-reduction-in-wrestling/

[Ghetto]

I totally disagree with the coach at the end. It is extremely rare that a casual fan comes to a tournament. They are much more likely to come to a dual.

So it is as simple as asking the national federation to change it?

"The PIAA will advance the proposal to the National Federation of High School Association to see if it will consider the change. If it says no, the PIAA will petition the NFHS to allow the reduction of the weight classes as a pilot program."


On a related side note, I've been exchanging information with a guy from Indiana, who has tracked their FF and participation numbers since 2003.(Participation numbers since 2003, FFs since 2009)

Their highest participation was in 2004- 8945
Their lowest participation was this past year- 6675
In 2009 they had 630 FFs
This past year they had 1014 FFs

[TomM]

Pennsylvania Seeking Switch to 12 Weight Classes
https://news.theopenmat.com

By Clay Sauertieg Posted on 05/24/2019

A massive change could be coming to the world of high school wrestling and it could be coming fairly soon. On Wednesday, the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association control board passed the wrestling committee's proposal to reduce the weight classes from 14 to 12 for the 2020-21 season.

The board will now advance the proposal to the National Federation of State High School Associations in hopes it will approve the change. Should the change be denied, it will ask the NFHS board to allow the PIAA to launch a pilot program that would then be adopted down the line.

As most of you know, the current weight classes are: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220 and 285.

Under the new proposal, the weights in PA would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215 and 285.

The rule intends to limit forfeits in dual meets and to increase fan interest in the sport at lower levels according to Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League wrestling chairman Frank Vulcano Jr. While many have lauded the move for its potential improvements to the sports watchability, it hasn't come without criticism. Many Pennsylvania coaches feel the change will take away opportunities from wrestlers looking to compete and wrestlers who they think could be champions if the weights remain unchanged.

Coach Scott Green of Wyoming Seminary, which is located in PA but not eligible to compete in PIAA postseason events, proposed 11 weights for duals and 15 for individual tournaments as well as multiple entries per weight in the postseason.

Additionally, the proposed changes have led to concern over weight separation and potentially issues with drastic cutting. The lightest weight being 110 has led to many suggesting that it's too heavy and would drastically limit the opportunities of small wrestlers, particularly underclassmen. There's also been concern over the 20-pound jump from 170 to 190, with some saying it would cause wrestlers caught in the middle to cut unhealthy amounts of weight to try to make the lower of the two.

But this wasn't the only proposal. There was also talk of removing the 2-pound allowance given to wrestlers in the middle of the year. The suggestion is due to the notion that rather than making it safer for wrestlers, it incentivizes wrestlers to attempt to cut down to a lower weight class.

The biggest question that now remains, in addition to whether the new proposal will gain favor with the NFHS, is how many states will follow. Currently, most states follow the 14 NFHS weight classes while New York adds a 99-pound division and Michigan uses the old NFHS weights which were changed following the 2010-11 season.

It stands to reason that if the NFHS board approves the new changes that most states will follow, but with the current weight classes only having come into a play less than a decade ago, there's no guarantee.

So what do you think? Do we need a change or are the current classes the best way to go?

https://news.theopenmat.com/high-school-wrestling/pennsylvania-seeking-switch-to-12-weight-classes/73165

[imnofish]

So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport.  Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction.  If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition.  Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters.  Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity.  Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there?  That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional.  What's needed is a proactive approach...   for ALL sports.  Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together.  Stop being so competitive so darn early.  Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first.  What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids?  Redesign our national sports programs based on that data.  Bet we'd get a much better result.

[MNbadger]

It is rare for a casual fan to come to either.

I totally disagree with the coach at the end. It is extremely rare that a casual fan comes to a tournament. They are much more likely to come to a dual.

So it is as simple as asking the national federation to change it?

"The PIAA will advance the proposal to the National Federation of High School Association to see if it will consider the change. If it says no, the PIAA will petition the NFHS to allow the reduction of the weight classes as a pilot program."


On a related side note, I've been exchanging information with a guy from Indiana, who has tracked their FF and participation numbers since 2003.(Participation numbers since 2003, FFs since 2009)

Their highest participation was in 2004- 8945
Their lowest participation was this past year- 6675
In 2009 they had 630 FFs
This past year they had 1014 FFs

[MNbadger]

I agree with this.  I think we are ignoring this and particularly in wrestling we chase our tails and look for problems.  Even if it turned out that retraction would make for a few more competitive duals I don't think that justifies cutting out opportunities for small high school athletes. 
Participation is down in sports.  We should patiently be working on those leaving football.  I think the issue of concussions is depressing their numbers in some areas.
I work in a district with a high school of 2600 students.  Twenty five years ago we dressed 120 Per game (Yes 120 dressed per game).   The last couple of years our fb coaches have been having to recruit players.  My middle school has 600 students this past season was the first in three years where we had enough girls to field a basketball team.  This year eleven girls, each of the last two we could only get 4 or 5 girls to play. 
How difficult do you suppose it is to recruit for wrestling?   I am still not in favor of retraction.  Heck, if we go to the weights most people suggest, I will actually forfeit a higher percentage of weights than I do now.  On top of that we will be no more likely to win any of the duals.

So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport.  Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction.  If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition.  Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters.  Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity.  Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there?  That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional.  What's needed is a proactive approach...   for ALL sports.  Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together.  Stop being so competitive so darn early.  Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first.  What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids?  Redesign our national sports programs based on that data.  Bet we'd get a much better result.