Reducing Weight Classes

[Numbers]

PIAA board of directors passes provision to push for reduction in number of wrestling weight classes

Updated May 22, 8:05 PM;  Posted May 22, 8:04 PM

By Dustin Hockensmith | dhockensmith@pennlive.com

The PIAA board of directors on Wednesday afternoon passed a provision to petition the National Federation of State High School Associations in 2020 if the national body's rules committee does not reduce the number of wrestling weight classes from 14 to 12 for the 2020-'21 academic year.

The PIAA will request a three-year pilot program in that case to drop the number of weights, citing an increase in forfeits in the lower weights. The lightest weight class is currently 106 pounds, but would be raised to 110, which marks the biggest change under the PIAA proposal.
The 12 weight classes would be the following:

110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285

The 14 weight classes as they exist now are:

106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285

"We've had a couple years to look at it and probably next year will be the third, maybe the fourth, that these weight classes have seen an increasing number of forfeits in the lower weights," PIAA executive director Robert Lombardi said. "We think our proposal is a better distribution than 14 and cuts down the number of forfeits and make dual meets more pleasing to fans and to coaches."

Neither the NFHS nor the PIAA is expected to bring the subject to a formal vote until April 2020, at which point the organizations will have an opportunity to reassess their plans with the benefit of another season worth of data. If the NFHS doesn't act and reduce the number of weights nationwide, the PIAA would step in and make its request for a pilot program.

The PIAA also passed a proposal to reduce the number of junior high weight classes from 18 to 15 at its Wednesday afternoon meeting, as well as a change that would allow varsity programs to enter a second wrestler in the same weight class in tournaments with nine or more teams.

The idea to address the number of forfeits in duals comes at the expense of fewer wrestlers getting opportunities to compete in the individual postseason. Not only that, but fewer spots in the starting lineup will mean fewer varsity matches throughout the dual season as well.

That's especially true in the lower weights, where high school athletes continue to get bigger, stronger and faster, Lombardi said. The lightest weight class in high school wrestling has risen over the years from 95 to 98 to 103 to 106 and now to 110 if the PIAA gets its wish in 2020.

Lombardi said the PIAA feels comfortable with the number of postseason opportunities available to wrestlers with Pennsylvania's 20-man brackets.

"We feel that we have more than enough opportunities because of our expanded 20-person bracket that anybody worth their salt will have a chance to go in," he said. "We have also noticed that kids are bigger stronger and faster than they've ever been by better training techniques, so I'm not sure if some of our very low weights help us compared to where the growth of the athletes is going."

The reduction in opportunities for younger and lighter wrestlers was the biggest complaint among coaches. As it is now, wrestling is one of the few sports that allows a 100-pound freshman to rank among the elite in the state, which continues to be jeopardized by raising the lowest weight class, Northern Lebanon coach Rusty Wallace Jr. said.

"We keep raising that lower weight, and it makes it harder and harder and harder for those kids to compete in ninth and 10th grade," Wallace said. "I think that's why we see kids held back when they're younger so they have time to grow. I think that's only going to increase."

Cedar Cliff's Rob Rapsey runs a program that consistently churns out strong numbers and is competitive up and down its roster. The Colts have had ample options and lineup flexibility in winning back-to-back District 3 team championships, so their issue might be in trying to squeeze kids into fewer lineup spots.

Still, from Rapsey's vantage point, there's at least an equal problem at the top end of the weight spectrum, where the lone change is dropping the 220-pound class to 215.

"If we're going to shrink it down, why do we essentially still have two heavyweights?" Rapsey said. "The more I talk to people, it's not the lower weights, it's the upper weights."

Rapsey said he also believed the PIAA proposal was the equivalent to caving in to national trends on participation, as opposed to working harder to address them at their roots.

"I know some of the numbers might not be there, and maybe I just don't agree with the fact you have to try and work harder in these situations than cave," he said. "This feels like caving."

The PIAA says it has data that suggests forfeits are on the rise, particularly in the lower weights, and is pushing to be on the forefront of a big change. The sport still faces questions about participation and can't solve all that ails it with one swing of the gavel, but this is a move that takes the sport in the right direction, Red Land's Brian Baglio said.

"This is in the right direction," Baglio said. "I'm OK with it at the end of the day when you add up the pros and cons. Not everybody is going to be happy, but we have a year to play with it and tweak it. It's a good step for Pennsylvania to take the lead, see a problem, and say, 'Hey, we want to go here. Come with us — here's what data says — or we're going to do it ourselves.'"

[downtown]

Just to be clear on the working harder comment.  I absolutely think that the top teams in the state work harder than the middle to the bottom teams in the state as a whole program.  How could you not think that objectively.  Don't think about it emotionally think about it rationally.  When you go to state freestyle and Greco it is almost exclusively the top 50-100 programs in the state that are sending kids to wrestle in this from youth to high school.  There are some outliers but the vast majority are kids from the same 50-100 schools.  That is why when you look over the high school brackets very few of the brackets are even a 32 man bracket.  The reason is because these communities head coach and club pushes off season wrestling (freestyle/Greco).  These are also the same programs that you can go to open mats at their locations, have freestyle/Greco tournaments before state, see whole teams go to summer camps together.  Plain and simple their program is working harder than other programs as a whole.  Like Ghetto said Mukwonago has coaches in their program that are still there after their kids go through.  If you don't have that in your program than you are being outworked by them (very few teams have this).  That is why they were the state runners up in D 1 this year.  Because it was important to them, and many individuals were willing to put in more work than other communities.  Fennimore didn't win state this year because they just really, really wanted to.  Their kids wrestle all the time!  If you have ever been around a truly great program you will understand how hard everyone works and how much effort it takes to be a truly great team.  You don't just get lucky.

That being said.  I don't think for a second that kids all over the state aren't working hard in their own wrestling room as other kids are.  No matter if you are on the state championship team or a team that only has 4 kids in the room.  Wrestling is a brutal, vicious sport that anyone who can make it through a season is a true competitor no matter what your record or status is on jv or varsity.

I just think cutting weight classes is an awful idea that is meant to punish the best teams and the kids on those teams.

As for kids who transfer schools, I have no problem with that.  If you are a family that wrestling is very important to you but the school that you go to doesn't put forth much effort into the program than yes you should be allowed to open enroll.  I would just like to see it prior to high school age.  But I do think it sucks bad when a kid who is the homegrown kid get bumped out of the lineup.  Having a good team isn't the same as filling all the weight classes. 

[Numbers]

The 12 weight classes would be the following:

110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285

The 14 weight classes as they exist now are:

106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285

PA did not ask me but I would prefer:
108,116,124,131,138,145,152,160,170,185?,215,285

[Fish]

Getting rid of the lowest weight class or bumping it up to 110 is not the answer.  If this happens you will see an incredible amount of kids quitting in 7th, 8th, and 9th grade.  There has to be a place for the smaller kids to compete as Freshman and Sophomores.  Where do the junior and senior 126,132,138,145 pounders usually start their careers? At 106 and 113.  Eric Barnett was at 106 both years. That's just one of thousands of examples I could use. If this were to happen,I guarantee about 5 years later we will see a ton of forfeits at 126,132, 138, etc because the upper classmen that would normally fill those weights won't be there because they'll have quit years earlier. Then what would we do? Eliminate the 126, 132?   
This sport has always been the one that the smaller kid could compete in. If you eliminate the lower weight class it would devastate the participation numbers Guaranteed!  I think a better option would be to let 8th graders wrestle at the high school. That would get the smaller kids excited about wrestling in high school. Getting rid of the lowest classes will deter them from wrestling in HS.

Full disclosure, I am a middle school coach.  I have several 8th graders this year that are under 100lbs. They are worried about not being big enough for 106. My guess is a couple will quit because of that. Bumping the weight up to 110 would make them ALL quit.

I could go on and on but I'll spare everyone   . For what it's worth, here's my 12 weight class suggestions: 
105, 115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 195, 210, 285

[Jimmy]

With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger

[Fish]

With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger
[/quote

I agree, but nutrition, weight lifting etc have nothing to do with genetics. It's not a mentality, it's genetics.   Some kids are just small and it's not because they want to be.  Let's be honest, how many 7th, and 8th graders are going to dedicate themselves to nutrition and weight lifting to get to 110 if they only weight 93lbs. My guess is not many.

[Fish]

As I said in my previous post... if we get rid of the lower weight class the smaller kids will quit in droves, and in 5 years we will start seeing forfeits at 126,132, & 138 because the kids that would normally fill those weights as juniors and seniors won't be there because they will have quit years earlier.  It will just snowball from there. I truly believe this would kill the sport.  All we need to do is let the 8th graders compete at the HS.

[bulldog]

As I said in my previous post... if we get rid of the lower weight class the smaller kids will quit in droves, and in 5 years we will start seeing forfeits at 126,132, & 138 because the kids that would normally fill those weights as juniors and seniors won't be there because they will have quit years earlier.  It will just snowball from there. I truly believe this would kill the sport.  All we need to do is let the 8th graders compete at the HS.

There you go...that makes great sense. Some great wrestlers at these weights in their junior/senior years where the 106 pounders their freshmen year. Just look at the progression of the 106 from 4 years ago. 2016 106 lb weight class at state. I don't think the kids at that weight would have been 126 their freshman year. So sit on the bench? Do any of us feel any of the kids in that bracket should have been on JV that year? But the kids I know in that bracket would have not been a 126 pounder their freshman year.

Wrestling is (in my mind) a sport of diversity. It is the sport that all can participate in. Big, small, short, tall, fast, slow the sport rewards hard work and dedication and if you bring that and a pair of shoes to the mat you can compete.

[MNbadger]

Yes, easy to add 10% body weight but another thing altogether to add 10% muscle mass.

With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger

[Bellytobelly]

Getting rid of the lowest weight class or bumping it up to 110 is not the answer.  If this happens you will see an incredible amount of kids quitting in 7th, 8th, and 9th grade.  There has to be a place for the smaller kids to compete as Freshman and Sophomores.  Where do the junior and senior 126,132,138,145 pounders usually start their careers? At 106 and 113.  Eric Barnett was at 106 both years. That's just one of thousands of examples I could use. If this were to happen,I guarantee about 5 years later we will see a ton of forfeits at 126,132, 138, etc because the upper classmen that would normally fill those weights won't be there because they'll have quit years earlier. Then what would we do? Eliminate the 126, 132?   
This sport has always been the one that the smaller kid could compete in. If you eliminate the lower weight class it would devastate the participation numbers Guaranteed!  I think a better option would be to let 8th graders wrestle at the high school. That would get the smaller kids excited about wrestling in high school. Getting rid of the lowest classes will deter them from wrestling in HS.

Full disclosure, I am a middle school coach.  I have several 8th graders this year that are under 100lbs. They are worried about not being big enough for 106. My guess is a couple will quit because of that. Bumping the weight up to 110 would make them ALL quit.

I could go on and on but I'll spare everyone   . For what it's worth, here's my 12 weight class suggestions: 
105, 115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 195, 210, 285
[/quote

I feel that the amount of kids that weigh less than 105 is very slim. Yes, there are some but overall it is difficult to find many high school kids less than 105. The kids making 106 now are probably cutting weight. The ones I know had to cut weight so I think bumping it up to 110 would not hurt that much. I do not think many kids are going to quit simply because you bump the weight from 106 to 110. I think that there are probably other reasons that the wrestlers quit.

I think that the thing hurting our sport is that there are more weight classes than most of the teams have wrestlers. Right now being on varsity in wrestling does not really mean you had to earn at most places. Most kids are just put on varsity because there is no one there. Other sports do not simply give out varsity spots so I think we need to make it more of an meaningful to make the varsity team and allowing the others to develop at the JV level. I almost believe that high school wrestling could even move 10 weight classes especially for duals at least.

[Handles II]

All the data we have from the past several years shows the 113 and 220 weights have the fewest numbers of participants on average across all divisions.

[mtnman]

I think going to twelve weight classes is a good solution. Not totally for it but I think moving to ten is too drastic. I also think you have to keep the 106 class close to the same. Yes, some kids are cutting to get to 106 but I think you'd be surprised how many are "bulking" to get as close to 106 as possible.  If I had a say in the weight classes they would be 106, 114, 122, 130, 138, 150, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285. Think staying close to the same weight classes on the upper weights makes sense and really no big jumps between weights while dropping two classes.

[nutman]

If weight classes are reduced, then it is even more critical to consider team placement in a regional other than geography.  There was just a major discussion regarding hot-bed areas of the state.  Imagine cutting two weight classes from those areas, this exasperates that issue even more.

It is interesting that we are fighting for more weight classes at the international level and have some advocating for fewer weight classes at the high school level.

A rule of thumb in any organization:   "Base decisions on your best."   (The contrary is: do not base your decisions on those who are struggling.)  If applied to this situation the logic is that schools struggling cannot fill the weight classes, so we will penalize the teams that do.   The cream is still going to rise to the top whether there is 12 or 14 classes.   The competition level is not going to create more scholarship athletes as those are typically discovered at national level tournaments in the off-season.  Also, think about the implication this will have on Fargo and some of the other national tournaments that correspond with the NFHS weight classes.  There will be fewer opportunities for wrestlers to be recognized and show-cased. 

I'm not sure why we would advocate to take opportunities away from our athletes.  Do we think crowning 36 state champs instead of 42 state champs will somehow elevate numbers OR having only 252 place winners versus 216?   

Some will also argue that there were fewer weight classes in earlier decades with higher participation rates.  Is that because there were fewer weight classes or could it be other factors such as fewer choices for other sports.  Could it be the fact that according to the last census there are about 30 million fewer people ages 5-17 compared to those in the age range of 45-55.  There is even a wider-gap when comparing the number of Baby Boomers when they were teenagers.  If this same logic is applied to football with its plummeting numbers, then everyone should switch to 8-man football to get numbers to increase (Maybe not the same thing but worth considering).     

Many of these high school place winners will someday become parents.  Do you think they are less likely or more likely to get their son or daughter involved if they had success?

If we want better match-ups to determine the top dog at each weight then let's get more athletes to freestyle and greco state.  There is only one division per weight class.   For those who were not there, several college coaches, including the Badger Staff were matside watching our best kids. Within an arm's length away in some cases!   To take it a step further, our best kids then went a couple of weeks later to Northern Plains and North Carolina to World Team Trials.  In a couple of weeks our Cadets will be going to Akron.  Then many will go to the national duals and then to Fargo.   If the argument is to create better match-ups, there are all kinds of other ways to do that.     

Rather than taking away opportunities-  Let's promote more opportunities beyond the high school season. 

[bulldog]

"some kids are cutting to get to 106"....and some kids are cutting to get to 132 and 145 and 170 and 195 and 220. Sorry but this has been a topic on this forum way to often. Kids are cutting weight in wrestling at all weight classes. A kid that weighs 110 lbs is cutting to 106 because he isn't big enough to wrestle the kid cutting from 120 to 113.

Getting rid of weight classes isn't going to change this

Handles II...the data shows 113 and 220 have the fewest number of participants. Great...so get rid of those two weights? Go from 106 to 120? 195 to hwt? Maybe I missed a different post that tied into this comment. I am not sure what you were trying to get at.

Finally Bellytobelly's comment "Right now being on varsity in wrestling does not really mean you had to earn at most places"...this is not unique to wrestling. There are kids starting on football and basketball teams that had no real competition for a varsity spot. Those sports are not cutting positions because they have to put in a below average player into a spot.

Wrestling's answer to lower participation numbers is cut spots. Go back to before the 14 weight classes and people were saying wrestling we should go down to 10 spots. I will lay odds that if the sport drops to 12 weights in two years this forum will have a thread about dropping to 10 spots. Maybe look at some options...combine with another team...go to a tournament only format...promote your product...build the youth movement even more than it is now (WWF is doing a great job in most cases but more could be done from a promotion standpoint).

I can think of no successful business or organization that became successful on the premises of downsizing. Why would wrestling be different?

[bulldog]

Great point nutman - there was greater participation in the 80s...we were farm kids and the school had two choices...basketball and wrestling. Now we have basketball, wrestling, hockey, swimming, bowling, curling, etc.

Coaches/schools need to push off season and more than just running a two day a week camp and then not going to the tournament themselves. Off season camps, off season duals, Fargo, Post and Pre Season nationals. There is so much to do. But we need to get the word out and the support of the off season efforts.