What valuable lesson are we teaching the Wrestlers of De Pere High School?

[crossface21]

It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.

However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?

If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.

They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not.  I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not.  I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling.  I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.

padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?

[padre]

It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.

However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?

If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.

They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not.  I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not.  I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling.  I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.

padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?

One of the coaches is first year varsity I believe...has coached in the program in different areas..so may have just trusted what the AD had for a schedule. I do not know...not close enough to the situation.  However, I do know him a bit and know its all about the kids for him....not even about winning and losing.   I'm sure he's sick to death.


I would bet there are plenty of coaches out there that just trust the schedule....many coaches Ive met through the years are not on the top of their game...maybe just lucky...maybe same thing happens elsewhere.   Didn't they self report to WIAA?

[ramjet]

On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.

As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have.  It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.

Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program.  With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?

If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.

I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle.  I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.

I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.

[crossface21]

It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.

However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?

If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.

They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not.  I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not.  I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling.  I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.

padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?

One of the coaches is first year varsity I believe...has coached in the program in different areas..so may have just trusted what the AD had for a schedule. I do not know...not close enough to the situation.  However, I do know him a bit and know its all about the kids for him....not even about winning and losing.   I'm sure he's sick to death.


I would bet there are plenty of coaches out there that just trust the schedule....many coaches Ive met through the years are not on the top of their game...maybe just lucky...maybe same thing happens elsewhere.   Didn't they self report to WIAA?

With the exception of their conference meets, I figured most coaches dictate and create the schedule that they want to have which would mean picking the tournaments they'd like to attend so they have control over who they are wrestling, when they have off, and knowing the number of meets they have. Maybe I'm in the minority of thinking that? Do most programs have their AD's create their schedule? And a coach not on top of their game....well, that's when you start having these types of issues.

[padre]

On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.

As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have.  It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.

Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program.  With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?

If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.

I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle.  I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.

I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.

NO!!!!!!!!!!! If the wrestlers did something wrong FINE!!!  A kid can do drugs or steal or so many other things and be available for regionals.  They didn't do anything.  They showed up and made weight when told to....nothing else.  To even be partial to the decision is crazy in my mind. Olympics?  By this time its an individual thing and there are so many things wrong there we don't even need to talk about it.  College?  Who knows?  But if the AD for Iowa made a mistake I would still want their wrestlers to wrestle.  This has always been a sport we talk about integrity, sportsmanship and compassion....well...show these kids  some compassion.   They did nothing wrong!!!!

I've been around it all and have always wanted my own team/children to win if possible but would NEVER EVER take this road as a coach or a father so that their sectional was easier which is the way it sounds to me....I'm ashamed for these coaches.

[ramjet]

Well we have to agree to disagree as in most cases the athletes suffer for the indescretions of the program coaches or recruits in some cases and even the Adminstration. You cannot have rules if those rules are bent and not upheld again they have an appeal process, hopefully if that process has not been concluded they make a good case, if not it is what it is. Seems and is harsh but that's what life deals you sometimes a big pile of dung. But rules are there and as Dale eluded too all the other programs followed the rules.

In most cases the AD just duplicates what they did the year before to make scheduling straight forward and easy. Small tweaks or changes brought about by dropping the  adding a different tournament. I even our little program is very aware of this rule and follows it closely.

[wraslfan]

On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.

As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have.  It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.

Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program.  With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?

If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.

I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle.  I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.

I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.

It's not college or Olympic wrestling. It's 14-18 year old high school students. What lesson does this teach them? They are getting screwed for doing what the adults told them to do?

[padre]

Well we have to agree to disagree as in most cases the athletes suffer for the indescretions of the program coaches or recruits in some cases and even the Adminstration. You cannot have rules if those rules are bent and not upheld again they have an appeal process, hopefully if that process has not been concluded they make a good case, if not it is what it is. Seems and is harsh but that's what life deals you sometimes a big pile of dung. But rules are there and as Dale eluded too all the other programs followed the rules.

In most cases the AD just duplicates what they did the year before to make scheduling straight forward and easy. Small tweaks or changes brought about by dropping the  adding a different tournament. I even our little program is very aware of this rule and follows it closely.

I'm not going to get into the logistics of who does and who does not "really" follow the rules as I'm not about dirty laundry.  However, you are waaaaaay wrong on this.  I'm a bit mystified
you think this is OK for those kids.  You are from a school that I'm sure just replicates their schedule year to year as they don't worry about competition.....generally the easier the better....watch how it works out at sectionals like every other year.  Those that are actually building a program may change things year to year....I know we have over the last 7-8 years and De Pere as an up and coming program may have been doing the same and a mistake was made.  I'm a little surprised you would take this stance on these kids that did nothing wrong.

[padre]

On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.

As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have.  It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.

Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program.  With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?

If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.

I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle.  I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.

I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.

It's not college or Olympic wrestling. It's 14-18 year old high school students. What lesson does this teach them? They are getting screwed for doing what the adults told them to do?

Probably not a great lesson to teach. No?   And these coaches did not intentionally do so.....that I know.

[TripleOT]

I don't know the whole situation on this but it sounds like when they noticed it they came forward. That was a stand up thing to do. Wiaa made a ruling with the info given and they should stand behind it. They look foolish for changing their mind. The kids have nothing to do with scheduling. None of these kids did anything but show up and wrestle like they where told to. Until now I bet these kids didnt even know there is a standard for this. Let em wrestle.

[mhsfan2]

One dual to many? It was a mistake when they realized it they turned themselves in. Probably wished they wouldn't of now.  It wasn't malicious, it didn't give them any advantage over anybody. There are plenty of kids that are going to have more matches than these boys at De Pere. Did the whole team participate at all these events? Its not like they're covering up anything.  Slap their hands let the boys wrestle.

[padre]

wlabecki@wiaawi.org or (715) 344-8580

This forum could actually make a difference I feel

[CLC FAN]

I really feel badly for all involved... I just don't see there being bad guys here.  I'm pretty sure if you work for WIAA, you don't wake up one morning and say, "who can I hose today?"  They are making a decision that is going to be controversial no matter how it comes down... my goodness, just look at the difference of opinions among well-meaning fans of the sport on this thread.  And I get the half measure of "let them wrestle while the appeal is running."  You can always stop them from going on, but if you prevent them from competing at regionals and then later decide they could have...it's too late to fix.

The kids are pretty clearly not the bad guys.  Coach says we wrestle Saturday, then we wrestle Saturday.

As for the coaches, I have a lot of compassion for them as well.  Without seeing the schedule layed out from their point of view, it's tough to know what events they thought were JV and what events were varsity.  I will say our own schedule was completely jacked up this year.  We had a dual postponed and a tournament cancelled due to weather.  We lost 3 or more days of practice due to weather - I'm sure other teams had duals cancelled or postponed on those nights.  Then we had a conference team drop their varsity program which left everyone one dual short.  I also had my AD make a simple error about a date conflict that lead to us planning to send our jv to a varsity tournament... when the snowstorm cancelled Marty Loy, we went back to sending our varsity.

My point is... the coaches by all accounts made a mistake, but I certainly understand how it could happen.

It's a pretty awful thing... I personally want to see the kids wrestle.  If they knock a kid out who might have made it through otherwise, that may not be 100% fair, but at least a wrestling match determined the outcome.

[ClipperRedDevilHornetRedBird]

It is my understanding, that a mistake was made in De Pere by adults that very much care for the kids they represent/coach and for "sport" in general...  One too many tournaments wrestled - PS: did you know a multi-dual (two varsity matches) on a Tuesday/Thursday night is a tournament by rule?  I did, but guessing that some might not - or didn't understand how this happened.

It would be a tragedy for the WIAA to punitively punish the kids for this... 

Please also keep in mind, that it would not help "sport" for De Pere to lose these caring adults that pour their souls into what they do for the kids...  These are good people that made a mistake...  It would not be good for "sport" to run them off so fast, cause guess what - folks aren't lining up to take over this responsibility...  Losing either would be a setback to "wrestling"...  You can rant and rave on this forum that this situation is their fault - but do you really think they don't know or are trying to avoid accountability somehow?  C'mon - they're non-perfect adults...  I can't cast a stone...

I pray the WIAA can come to a resolution that is not punitive to the kids...

[WINfan]

What would be so wrong with taking away dual meets/tournaments next year or the next few years.  This way the kids can still wrestle this tournament out, yet their program can suffer the consequences in the future.   Just a possible punishment below

2018 3 less tournaments
2019 2 less tournaments
2020 1 less tournament