STATE BRACKETS OUT

[PAUL]

Just wondering if the WIAA may have been better off doing the tournament the "old way" for one more year, but creating/issuing the brackets of how they would have been if the seeding criteria had been used -> kind of a "here's what is going to happen next year".   It could have helped tighten up the criteria where needed, and also reminded coaches about the importance of entering complete data if this is a problem. Maybe this would have only gone to coaches, but ideally the public could have viewed it also as it would have made things more interesting and given everyone something to consider, discuss, argue over, etc. 

[Redeemer]

My opinion - WIAA should have called this separation and not seeding. If you look at this as separation - for the most part it did pretty good. It is not seeding - you cannot have true seeds with no human interaction, Track isn't that good.

Yess. In the Clark case, you'd rather see the accurate #2 vs #3 with Clark an obvious #1... but criteria was missing a few things, including a Sunday video coach's meeting where things are discussed.

and Ben Askren, you are wrong to name call others for stating things that can be appropriately stated. I see over a dozen brackets with obvious errors, but it'll be as it is. Next year will show improvements... and this tourney will still be a great one.

[wrestler6]

Wow this definitely is a swing and a miss....

[Numbers]

My opinion - WIAA should have called this separation and not seeding. If you look at this as separation - for the most part it did pretty good. It is not seeding - you cannot have true seeds with no human interaction, Track isn't that good.

Yess. In the Clark case, you'd rather see the accurate #2 vs #3 with Clark an obvious #1... but criteria was missing a few things, including a Sunday video coach's meeting where things are discussed.

and Ben Askren, you are wrong to name call others for stating things that can be appropriately stated. I see over a dozen brackets with obvious errors, but it'll be as it is. Next year will show improvements... and this tourney will still be a great one.

I believe the goal was to take all the adults/politics out of the process.  Just need clear criteria that can be calculated by a computer.  Adding subjectivity into the process is the wrong way to go in my opinion.

So maybe start another forum thread with ideas to improve state bracketing criteria.  Let's share ideas to improve criteria.  I believe other states use similar criteria to Wisconsin (and TrackWrestling).  Some coaches association members read these boards.

I think yesterday may have been Iowa's third year of seeding state?  I liked the way Iowa presented the stream of the state finals.  It was on Flo last night.

[downtown]

It doesn't matter if you win your sectional that you should have a bye first round in division 2 and 3.  The kids should be seeded for what they have earned on a cumulative season.  That being said holy crap did the WWCA and the WIAA royally screw this up.  Bi state doesn't seem to have any issues seeding their tournament which is comparable in size. Head to head match up only matters when two kids are seeded next to each other on a kid jumping the other kid for seeding.  Not some crazy matrix of scoring points against common opponents.

It is like the people who put this together have never been to a seeding meeting or run a tournament.  I am glad the tournament is seeded and expect it to be seeded correctly next year.  But wow they really have egg all over their face with this one.  So embarrassing inept do the people in charge of this look.

[Wrestling200]

So the wrestlebacks at Sectionals for 2nd place were for what.....absolutley nothing. Dumb. It means more if you beat a kid at regionals or sectionals the past 2 weeks over what place each other took at last years state.

Question...
-Wrestler A beats wrestler B at sectionals in 2022
-Wrestler B finishes 3rd at state in 2021 while wrestler A places 6th in 2021

-who is seeded higher??

[crossface21]

So the wrestlebacks at Sectionals for 2nd place were for what.....absolutley nothing. Dumb. It means more if you beat a kid at regionals or sectionals the past 2 weeks over what place each other took at last years state.

Question...
-Wrestler A beats wrestler B at sectionals in 2022
-Wrestler B finishes 3rd at state in 2021 while wrestler A places 6th in 2021

-who is seeded higher??

Wrestler C

[drbrad]

Let me preface this by saying I like the move to seeding. Let's not name-call and complain without ideas for "fixes". I'm seeing two main complaints in this thread. First, that wrestlers from same sectional are wrestling early at state (not separated). Second, that the system (whether in its design or by glitches) may seed SOME wrestlers in ways that appear grossly unfair and illogical to the naked eye (e.g. Marko 3x State Champ, undefeated this year, 3-seed). The problem is that these two issues are in direct opposition to each other. The more "fair" the seeding process, the more likely it is that sectional opponents will face each other 1st or 2nd round. With 3 (rather than 2) wrestlers from each sectional, there will always be a likelihood of sectional opponents rematching anyhow. I would also say there is a problem when a sectional championship can become pretty much meaningless when overridden by other criteria.

So let's go back to the original idea for 12-man brackets in D2 D3. 1) It allowed really good wrestlers who placed 3rd in a stacked sectional the opportunity to make it to state. (As an aside, in the early 80's I lost 8-5 in sectional semis to the eventual state champ. He lost in my sectional finals to the eventual state runner-up. No wrestleback or state for me, as happened to lots of others in the 8-man bracket days). So the move to 12-man gave otherwise deserving 3rd place finishers a state qualification. 2) The 12-man state bracket also REWARDED sectional champions, not just by separation, but also the 1st round bye.

How do we make the best of both worlds? I suggest going back to 1st round byes for sectional champions. Winning 1/4 of the state should mean more than a take-home bracket, nice as it may be. Taking away those byes removes one of the great things about the 12-man state bracket. I propose a compromise: Return to 1st round byes for sectional champions (thus keeping the value and importance of winning your sectionals). Seed these 4 champions (separately from 5-12) on quarterfinals line. Then, seed remaining 8 wrestlers (5-12 overall) on the first round line. This way, in cases where the top 2 wrestlers come from the same sectionals, sectional champ gets the bye. Runner up would need to wrestle 1st round, BUT would likely be seeded 5th and get to wrestle the 12th seed in preliminaries. Even if 6th seed (2nd among non-champs), he would face the 11 seed in preliminary round.

In my mind, this would strike a balance between rewarding sectional champions while also being fair to wrestlers from stacked sectionals. Any thoughts? Feel free to point out problems or issues, just please do it in a constructive way and share your own ideas.

[Numbers]

Everyone is invited to share ideas after the Badger match.  Time to head to Madison!  Go Badgers!

[littleguy301]

Drbrad........I was under the impression that seed the top 4 and then the rest different like you pointed out.

I figured the wiaa would stop the ball just like they did in the girls basketball. Gove it some time and hopefully it gets worked out.

What makes me really concerned is how it will effect the sectionals match ups. First in d2 and d3, win your first 2 and then ff out to third might save your seed. Kids yesterday were better off not wrestling back to a true second due to that match had no bearing on your state seed. If you won or lost it was a record builder or made the record worse.

I want to make sure the matches count at every step of the way. Coach Hanson laid out an example of tf vs pins. Wow that is a deep way of thinking.

Like I said, this will work out in die time.

My solution to this was I was hoping the old way of seeding but at state we could of seen the new lai out and compare it and fix what it was and hopefully next year roll out the new seeding with the fixes. Just like in the summer the wiaa rolled out the new 14 events and sent the schools scrambling to re schedule.

[Raiderfan]

Let me preface this by saying I like the move to seeding. Let's not name-call and complain without ideas for "fixes". I'm seeing two main complaints in this thread. First, that wrestlers from same sectional are wrestling early at state (not separated). Second, that the system (whether in its design or by glitches) may seed SOME wrestlers in ways that appear grossly unfair and illogical to the naked eye (e.g. Marko 3x State Champ, undefeated this year, 3-seed). The problem is that these two issues are in direct opposition to each other. The more "fair" the seeding process, the more likely it is that sectional opponents will face each other 1st or 2nd round. With 3 (rather than 2) wrestlers from each sectional, there will always be a likelihood of sectional opponents rematching anyhow. I would also say there is a problem when a sectional championship can become pretty much meaningless when overridden by other criteria.

So let's go back to the original idea for 12-man brackets in D2 D3. 1) It allowed really good wrestlers who placed 3rd in a stacked sectional the opportunity to make it to state. (As an aside, in the early 80's I lost 8-5 in sectional semis to the eventual state champ. He lost in my sectional finals to the eventual state runner-up. No wrestleback or state for me, as happened to lots of others in the 8-man bracket days). So the move to 12-man gave otherwise deserving 3rd place finishers a state qualification. 2) The 12-man state bracket also REWARDED sectional champions, not just by separation, but also the 1st round bye.

How do we make the best of both worlds? I suggest going back to 1st round byes for sectional champions. Winning 1/4 of the state should mean more than a take-home bracket, nice as it may be. Taking away those byes removes one of the great things about the 12-man state bracket. I propose a compromise: Return to 1st round byes for sectional champions (thus keeping the value and importance of winning your sectionals). Seed these 4 champions (separately from 5-12) on quarterfinals line. Then, seed remaining 8 wrestlers (5-12 overall) on the first round line. This way, in cases where the top 2 wrestlers come from the same sectionals, sectional champ gets the bye. Runner up would need to wrestle 1st round, BUT would likely be seeded 5th and get to wrestle the 12th seed in preliminaries. Even if 6th seed (2nd among non-champs), he would face the 11 seed in preliminary round.

In my mind, this would strike a balance between rewarding sectional champions while also being fair to wrestlers from stacked sectionals. Any thoughts? Feel free to point out problems or issues, just please do it in a constructive way and share your own ideas.

Yes! This makes more sense!

[Rat]

Everyone that wanted state to be seeded got what  I knew would happen. More complaining did you really think the wiaa or track would get this right? The best wrestlers don't give a rats arse who they wrestle and when. They should have left it alone.

[Nutsnbolts]

Here's a wild thought, use the rankings as seeds. The committee already has these kids in the most logical order.

[Chris Hansen]

If two guys in the bracket have a common opponent and they both pinned him, does the seed point go to whoever pinned him the fastest? I know that sounds like a silly question but in the light of how this has played out, that is no more silly than a pin in January being better than a tech fall in December.        The reason I ask is because I got a few guys who are really going to lay the smack down on some JV caliber kids next season to improve our state seed.    While a seven second pin should do the trick, we're shooting for six seconds.

[drbrad]

Everyone that wanted state to be seeded got what  I knew would happen. More complaining did you really think the wiaa or track would get this right? The best wrestlers don't give a rats arse who they wrestle and when. They should have left it alone.

I don't think most of us are complaining (yes some exceptions). Seeding is the right direction. I think most of us are just trying to understand how it works, point out possible flaws or bugs, and toss around some ideas that maybe could improve it in the future.