Badgers at NCAAs

[Ghetto]

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

Couldn't have said it better.

[DocWrestling]

Penn St is amazing with 5 national champs!  That is crazy.

[MNbadger]

It is hard to keep all in state kids.  I don't know how other states do.  I think there were 14 MN natives in the tournament, 6 were Gophers.  Not all of them fit.
If you have O'Toole, you likely don't get Hamiti.  You might want to trade now but hind sight is 20/20.
The same for Buchanan. If you had him, you'd likely not get Amos who was a kid everyone wanted.  This is hard to understand when PSU just keeps stockpiling talent deeper and deeper.  To be honest, I don't care for the mechanism that makes for that reality but it is what it is. 

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

[vsmf2010]

It is hard to keep all in state kids.  I don't know how other states do.  I think there were 14 MN natives in the tournament, 6 were Gophers.  Not all of them fit.
If you have O'Toole, you likely don't get Hamiti.  You might want to trade now but hind sight is 20/20.
The same for Buchanan. If you had him, you'd likely not get Amos who was a kid everyone wanted.  This is hard to understand when PSU just keeps stockpiling talent deeper and deeper.  To be honest, I don't care for the mechanism that makes for that reality but it is what it is. 

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

Well said MN

[Army Ant]

It is hard to keep all in state kids.  I don't know how other states do.  I think there were 14 MN natives in the tournament, 6 were Gophers.  Not all of them fit.
If you have O'Toole, you likely don't get Hamiti.  You might want to trade now but hind sight is 20/20.
The same for Buchanan. If you had him, you'd likely not get Amos who was a kid everyone wanted.  This is hard to understand when PSU just keeps stockpiling talent deeper and deeper.  To be honest, I don't care for the mechanism that makes for that reality but it is what it is. 

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

Otoole, Keckeisen, Mocco and Buchanan were available before Hamiti and Amos so we missed them either way. How about Whiting? Glad we got Rivera. Hopefully we can keep Hopke too.

[crossface21]

We'll never keep all the in-state top tier talent. It's just not possible with the current structure. Is it improving? Absolutely. I'm assuming Bono is trying hard to get the top talent in the state right now, but it takes 2 to tango. Sometimes those kids just don't want to stay in state.

As for the kids mentioned, it's easy to understand why O'Toole went to Missouri. Barry Davis didn't recruit Keckeisen and by the time Bono did it was too late, Mocco was a late bloomer so understandable why he may have gone to whoever jumped on him first. Whiting will hurt cuz that kid could be an AA his true freshman year. But I like the class UW has coming in. 3 AA's may become the absolute minimum going forward and I'm excited about that.

[MNbadger]

Well kids go to schools for all kinds of reasons.  To be honest, it boggles my mind in many cases, even kids that are not athletes make choices that seem weird to me.  Their parents do the same.  My own step daughter could have gone to a great number of schools for NOTHING due to her academics.  She decided to go to a school in Canada and paid an exorbitant amount of money.  Her mom had saved but her grandfather paid for much of it.  I think it's nuts(I hope my wife does not see this).  Had it been my call, I would have said pick one of the schools that leave you with no debt, non-negotiable. 
I know wrestlers choose schools ostensibly for where they think their best chance to develop is in their mind.  Likely their talent would let them be a NC or AA wherever they decide to go.  For me then it comes down to economics and proximity.  To others my criteria are not sound. 
I also think we all overemphasize the school.  I get that if I want to be an engineer and I can get into MIT it might matter.  But other than that, colleges and universities are pretty similar.  They all go through accreditation, etc. One's education is important but college is a means to an end when it's all said and done. 
There are AAs from lots of schools.  Appalachian State had at least one I think.  Oklahoma State is great at wrestling but not many think it is an academic powerhouse.  I know they still produce millionaires and doctors and regular working people just like every single other college out there.
I just listened to a podcast with Mark Schwab.  At the time he was the number one recruit in the country.  He chose UNI because of a girlfriend for gosh sakes. 
I am rambling and I don't see any real answer .  We like the coaches of the teams we root for.  Wisconsin fans can't imagine not jumping at the chance to wrestle for Bono and go to Madison.  That's how kids feel about lots of different programs. 

[wrestlemania]

"They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers."

Normally I would agree with that statement. But the following names I'm going to list here runs counter to this wisdom:

The following four-time WIAA State Champions went to UW: Matt Hanutke, Brian Slater, Scott Hady, Kevin Black, Cole Wunnicke, Jesse Thielke and Jens Lantz. Of this group, Only Black and Hanutke were All-Americans, none champions.

The following WIAA three-times state champions attended UW: Eric Barnett, Devin Bahr, Beau Breske, Cole Martin, Josh and Jordan Crass, Jake Donar, Eric Swick, Dennis Hall, Ron Pieper, John Harms. Of this group, only Barnett made All-American status. None champions.

Last UW champion from Wisconsin: Stoughton's Andy Rein in 1980.

Since that time, Wisconsin's national champions have been Jim Jordan (Ohio), Dave Lee (California), Matt Demaray (Minnesota), Jeff Walter (Pennsylvania), Donnie Prizlaff (New Jersey) and  Andrew Howe (Indiana).

Just because you're a multi-state champion and attend UW doesn't mean success will follow. That's been the program's biggest failure. More kids from Wisconsin find success away from UW than they do in Madison for whatever reason and there are many and for whatever reason UW coaches have found more success coaching out-of-state wrestlers to All-American and national champion status than in-state wrestlers.  Certainly Bono will recruit an in-state wrestler if he has the talent and fits what he wants for the program (like Rivera) but it wouldn't surprise me if wasn't priority one because  the record shows, like it or not, being from the state is no indication of future success. Bono and his staff are going to recruit the best wrestlers at their respective weight classes regardless where they are from.

[wrestlemania]

The Badgers actually finished tied for 14th nationally in the team standings which makes me feel a little better about their season. I mean, they were still a really good duals squad, their overall record the best in a decade and they've got a good incoming recruiting class. It will be interesting to see who sticks around, particularly the seniors who still have one year of eligibility left if they wish to exercise it. This will be season five for Bono and potentially the first where it's just his recruits in the wrestling room. If so, we'll see if that has any impact.

[Vir Fortis]

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

Yup...this is gonna be the key. You can't have 3 of your top...5/6 College Wrestlers feeding the Missouri pipeline.

Wisconsin is developing more HS Talent...so getting in on these top in state guys has to be Bono's top priority. I like the Coaching staff a lot. Bono, Reader, Gross. But it'd be nice to have SOMEONE on there that's got stronger ties to Wisconsin who could help keep these kids in State. Maybe that develops over time as you get guys through your program, but we're all looking at the talent Wisconsin will produce the next 2-3 years. If we want to have a Michigan type run(I'm kinda resigned to the fact that we're just not gonna be able to compete with PSU) you're gonna need to get Hopke, Milard and that kid from Milton? That 70 pounder was REAL nice. Mulvaney is a kid I'd absolutely recruit...and Sinclair handled him pretty well.

That's also a good way to develop College talent. The Mulvaney(who I know nothing about and am making assumptions here based on how good he's looked when I've watched him). He's coming off a year that'd normally be a year he dominated and walked through the bracket. Maybe had a tough match in the finals like the other two Arrowhead kids, but still, won. And now he's gotta be that much more motivated. So talent like Sinclair is doing more for the state than just what he'll bring. Same with Hopke and several other Wrestlers.

[Vir Fortis]

"They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers."

Normally I would agree with that statement. But the following names I'm going to list here runs counter to this wisdom:

The following four-time WIAA State Champions went to UW: Matt Hanutke, Brian Slater, Scott Hady, Kevin Black, Cole Wunnicke, Jesse Thielke and Jens Lantz. Of this group, Only Black and Hanutke were All-Americans, none champions.

The following WIAA three-times state champions attended UW: Eric Barnett, Devin Bahr, Beau Breske, Cole Martin, Josh and Jordan Crass, Jake Donar, Eric Swick, Dennis Hall, Ron Pieper, John Harms. Of this group, only Barnett made All-American status. None champions.

Last UW champion from Wisconsin: Stoughton's Andy Rein in 1980.

Since that time, Wisconsin's national champions have been Jim Jordan (Ohio), Dave Lee (California), Matt Demaray (Minnesota), Jeff Walter (Pennsylvania), Donnie Prizlaff (New Jersey) and  Andrew Howe (Indiana).

Just because you're a multi-state champion and attend UW doesn't mean success will follow. That's been the program's biggest failure. More kids from Wisconsin find success away from UW than they do in Madison for whatever reason and there are many and for whatever reason UW coaches have found more success coaching out-of-state wrestlers to All-American and national champion status than in-state wrestlers.  Certainly Bono will recruit an in-state wrestler if he has the talent and fits what he wants for the program (like Rivera) but it wouldn't surprise me if wasn't priority one because  the record shows, like it or not, being from the state is no indication of future success. Bono and his staff are going to recruit the best wrestlers at their respective weight classes regardless where they are from.

You're looking at the past and it's meaningless with regard to the kids that are Wrestling now. There are obviously some fantastic Wrestlers in the list of Wrestlers you cited...but the quality of the talent that is coming out of Wisconsin HS Wrestling right now is on a whole other level than from any point in the 90s-2020. There have been a few outliers, but we just had two True Freshmen start last year and they've got 3/1 and 3/3 the last two years. Buchanan just took a 3rd and he got upset.

Mocco is an outstanding Wrestler. I'm also more talking about the kids that are coming up as it appears to be deeper....if it's as good at the top is to be determined(though I do believe there are kids with O'Toole/Paker type ability coming up, particularly in '24).

This requires more than just looking at past results and state rankings in Wisconsin. Kevin Black was obviously outstanding. What he did was unprecedented. I don't believe he was winning a Junior World Championship just out of HS...he didn't have the same level of success early on. Keegan has one loss to the National Champ last year. He's got a very good chance to go 3/1/1/1/1. I mean...getting a little ahead of ourselves here. Hoping the kid has no injury issues or whatever, but he's certainly got the ability to do so.

I used to give the Badgers a bit of a pass as the state just wasn't producing a lot of elite College Talent...and on the rare occasions they did, Eric Swick...he dealt with injuries, Garrett Lowney, he was both exceptional, but also undersized and that led a hometown guy to go to the same school.


But these guys are going out and proving themselves on the highest stages they can, they're dominating. Koy Hopke was just a National Champ in all 3 styles and I don't know if he's the #1 of #5 recruit in 2024. There is THAT much talent(and maybe a tough of hyperbole to highlight how good that group looks).

[Vir Fortis]

It is hard to keep all in state kids.  I don't know how other states do.  I think there were 14 MN natives in the tournament, 6 were Gophers.  Not all of them fit.
If you have O'Toole, you likely don't get Hamiti.  You might want to trade now but hind sight is 20/20.
The same for Buchanan. If you had him, you'd likely not get Amos who was a kid everyone wanted.  This is hard to understand when PSU just keeps stockpiling talent deeper and deeper.  To be honest, I don't care for the mechanism that makes for that reality but it is what it is. 

They'll only get over the hump if they can keep the top in state kids. I saw 3 WI natives take 1st, 3rd, and 3rd at NCAAs and none of them wrestled for Badgers. Bono is doing a good job but it's tough when you're up against Askren seemingly (I'm not 100% sure) steering top kids toward MO and tough admission standards for in state kids.

Next year MO will have O'Toole, Mocco, and Whiting.

Maybe you don't get Hamiti...and that'd be a real shame as he's a whole lot of fun to watch...but you first have to take care of your own state. Also...maybe you do get him. Maybe Hamiti redshirts and then goes 174. He certainly has the length for it. Or one goes '57(seems less likely...Hamiti seems like he's a future '74 with his frame and potential to add size to his frame, but for the sake of argument).

Penn State is on another level, but you're also getting guys going there because they want to compete against the best. I'd be pretty excited about Hamiti/O'Toole/Mocco/Keckeisen/Buchanan/Amos top end of the lineup. Add Barnett to that lineup and that's a top ~3 team however the weights shake out before you consider Gomez/Hillger or how the level of talent in the room just MAY raise the level of Wrestling you're getting from other guys.

From what I know, Buchanan wasn't a top recruit, he just went out and outworked everyone to become one of the Nations best Wrestlers. I'd imagine having him in the room would have done wonders for Amos...and if he decides not to come, that would certainly be a shame as I think he has a lot of upside, but I don't know that's true.

Just over a year ago people were referring to him very favorably to AJ Ferrari. And he'd have been committing as Buchanan was coming off a nice Freshmen year, but one in which he lost 4 in a row in the B12 and...looked like a promising Freshmen, but he didn't look like a kid you're not going to try and go after one of the top recruits in the Country because you already have him.


I think all of those kids would have been good fits...and I'm not blaming Bono...yet. As has been pointed out, Wisconsin hasn't been a hotbed of Wrestling talent... But now that you can clearly see the level of talent in Wisconsin is on the rise, it's on the guy who coaches the ONLY Division one Program in the State of Wisconsin to take advantage of that and go out and convince those kids that staying home is the best decision.

[MNbadger]

A different take:
Huskers finish 5th with five AA's: https://huskers.com/news/2022/3/19/wrestling-huskers-secure-top-five-finish-at-ncaas.aspx

Cougar wanted a review of the Huskers.  Nebraska has one of the finest coaching staffs in wrestling.  Head coach Mark Manning has 21 years in Lincoln and the inevitable task of working for an AD who cut his alma mater's program.  Asst head coach Brian Snyder has 11 years in and is working on a pipeline for Pennsylvania recruits.  Robert Kokesh is in his fourth year as asst coach and Tervel Dlagnev is in his first year as volunteer asst.  I'd like to see a lightweight coach added to the staff.

The recruiting pipeline is essential because the state of Nebraska has the worst high school wrestling in the Midwest.   While it is improving there are only five Nebraska kids on the 36 man roster.  Kansas has just as many while Minny supplied three.  None of this years starters are from NE.  Without a strong home state base recruiting nationally is a must.

The Huskers have averaged around 10th place at NCAA's during Manning's 21 years here.  For comparison, JRob averaged 7.8 in his 30 years as head coach, while Eggum has averaged 9.6 in his five years.

How do they get kids to go to Lincoln?!?!?

[Vir Fortis]

A different take:
Huskers finish 5th with five AA's: https://huskers.com/news/2022/3/19/wrestling-huskers-secure-top-five-finish-at-ncaas.aspx

Cougar wanted a review of the Huskers.  Nebraska has one of the finest coaching staffs in wrestling.  Head coach Mark Manning has 21 years in Lincoln and the inevitable task of working for an AD who cut his alma mater's program.  Asst head coach Brian Snyder has 11 years in and is working on a pipeline for Pennsylvania recruits.  Robert Kokesh is in his fourth year as asst coach and Tervel Dlagnev is in his first year as volunteer asst.  I'd like to see a lightweight coach added to the staff.

The recruiting pipeline is essential because the state of Nebraska has the worst high school wrestling in the Midwest.   While it is improving there are only five Nebraska kids on the 36 man roster.  Kansas has just as many while Minny supplied three.  None of this years starters are from NE.  Without a strong home state base recruiting nationally is a must.

The Huskers have averaged around 10th place at NCAA's during Manning's 21 years here.  For comparison, JRob averaged 7.8 in his 30 years as head coach, while Eggum has averaged 9.6 in his five years.

How do they get kids to go to Lincoln?!?!?

Well...Nebraska certainly had an outstanding Tournament, but this is also the most AAs they've had since 2008.

But sure, they've got a great coaching staff and the worst HS Wrestling in the Midwest(wouldn't have quite guessed that, but I know it's not a hotbed). But Wisconsin doesn't. Not anymore. I'm not assigning any blame to anyone here or complaining about the past or that we lost out on the guys who are succeeding now...I'm simply saying if the Badgers are going to make a big jump into that top 5-10 range, they're going to need to keep their top in-state talent.

If you don't have that talent...then you have no choice to recruit out of state and hope it works out...and they've certainly hit a few HRs out of New Jersey(As Wisconsin has when THEY were lacking that in-state talent).

But when you DO have in-state talent, that has to be the keystone to developing a good College program. You have an inherent advantage for starters(an advantage may have been mitigated by certain circumstances with O'Toole and a couple others, but I don't actually know that).

I'll put it this way...if the Badgers aren't getting a handful of the top kids from the 2024 recruiting class, I have a real hard time seeing how they'll end up taking that next step and jump into that second tier just behind Iowa/PSU in the B1G and a top ~5-8 program.

NeBraska's finish this year is a little reminiscent of some of the Badgers teams when they had say Donny or Graff/Medberry/Ruschell. Kevin Black and Trevor Branvold may have been homegrown talent, but the state just wasn't producing much at the time. Now they are.

This is just kinda a rule across sports. I seriously doubt Nebraska was one of the top 15 most talented states for HS Football, but they went on a run in the 90s that's almost unprecedented and had long been a Football power house dating back to the 60s-70s. But were they the norm or was Ohio State, Penn State, Texas, about 5 Florida Schools, USC and a couple other Cali schools, LSU...and schools like that building the majority of their class from within their talent rich states?


I understand what you're saying...but I still think the in-state talent has to be a bigger priority. Maybe this is just an outstanding group of athletes and it won't last and the state hasn't actually taken the big step I think it has, but for right now, the talent is there and I think they need to capitalize on it.

It's also easier to sustain.

[Vir Fortis]

By the way, just a side note...that Arizona State team looks absolutely incredible. IF there is a team that could give PSU a run next year, it has to be them. I believe pretty much their entire starting lineup is back next year and most of them have 2 years left. I like how they wrestle as well.

That team could be like Michigan this year...but better. Not really related to the Badgers at the NCAA but man that team is loaded. Another Valencia coming through also(tough I don't know how good he is).