What valuable lesson are we teaching the Wrestlers of De Pere High School?

[foose4]

The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South.  That would put him under the 14 competitions.  I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.

That rule states you only DO NOT count if you don't compete OR receive forfeit.

f. If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs
in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition
maximums

8 kids had 15 events, 2 who missed some duals had 14 & 12.   WIAA really has to follow the rules of the book on this one.  I know it sucks, but it's not "Season Recommendations" it's "Season Regulations"

I have heard that Wade is pretty black and white, which you probably need to be.  I know it sucks for the kids, but it's a rule that has to be followed.  Coach should've known better.  I would think that most coaches track this.

[Ghetto]

It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.

I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.

If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.

It's a mess. That's for sure.

The kid who in theory loses to a DePere kid has a legitimate beef?  Give me a break.  Why?  Because the Depere kid might have wrestled a few more matches this season?   There are plenty of schools that wrestle more matches than other schools in the state.  There are also schools fortunate enough to wrestle against great competition during the season, arguably making them better prepared for this part of the season (Stoughton, Kaukauna...).  Should a wrestler that loses in sectionals to a wrestler from one of these programs (there will be many that do) have an equal amount of 'beef'? 

What I mean is that if a rule is determined to have been broken, and an athlete is competing "illegally" according to the current rules, the loser of that match has a legitimate beef. Yes. Legally.

[MARSHDOC]

The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South.  That would put him under the 14 competitions.  I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.

This seems to be true and hopefully is a technicality to allow the great majority of kids to wrestle but again what another silly complicated WIAA rule.  A forfeit in a dual counts as a weigh-in, counts as a win, but does not count as a competition?

My head is spinning with all these rules.  I thank you and the wrestlers should thank people like you for actually knowing all the details.  You may help out a few of the kids despite a negative ruling.

I made my call to Wade Lubeke in support of the DePere kids.  I feel sorry for the man as he is truly stuck between a rock and a hard place.  The decision is out of his hands and will be decided by the board.  

[Stripes]

According to section f. of the individual participation limits, forfeits do not count. Based on trackwrestling results, this would only disqualify 2 DePere wrestlers.  Hope I am reading that correctly.
a. A wrestler is not eligible to compete or participate in any pre-meet activity until they have had a minimum weight determined and the school has received a printout from the WIAA office so indicating.
b . A student is limited to representing his school one time in a dual meet, including varsity, nonvarsity, exhibitions and forfeits.
c . No wrestler shall represent his school in more than one weight class in any meet or compete in more than five matches (championship or consolation) in any one day.
d . A student participating at the nonvarsity level in a dual meet may wrestle a maximum of 15 minutes (not including overtimes) provided: (1) No match is scheduled for longer than five minutes. (2) Results of none of these matches are counted toward varsity records.
e . A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and no more than seven of the 14 may be varsity level multipleschool meets (involving total of more than two teams) except, as described in 6. a.
f . If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition maximums

Incorrect interpretation cedarboy. You cannot compete or receive a forfeit if you don't want it to count as an event. If you receive a forfeit, you get a win and team points. That absolutely counts as an event.

[ramjet]

Padre- I'm not going to get into the logistics of who does and who does not "really" follow the rules as I'm not about dirty laundry.  However, you are waaaaaay wrong on this.  I'm a bit mystified
you think this is OK for those kids.  You are from a school that I'm sure just replicates their schedule year to year as they don't worry about competition.....generally the easier the better....watch how it works out at sectionals like every other year.  Those that are actually building a program may change things year to year....I know we have over the last 7-8 years and De Pere as an up and coming program may have been doing the same and a mistake was made.  I'm a little surprised you would take this stance on these kids that did nothing wrong.

So you are out of control emotionally about this and clearly ARE NOT "about the kids". In fact based on your comments putting down the kids up here I guess you are every much the jerk as many die scribe you as so I will no longer defend you and you're misplaced passion.

The reason that is evident is your disparaging remarks about a group of wrestler and program above. I guess you feel if you demean anyone who disagrees with you and take it up kids it will fix the DePere situation? It is obvious to me you have never been or never could be part of Board that has to make de is ions based on the evidence in front of you and you have to deal with the facts as they are presented not on conjecture and emotion. I had far more respect for you but frankly now I see the arrogance and unreasonable emotional behavior you are capapable of.


I think it's hilarious that so many come to the table to defend the AD and Coaches that messed this up for those kids. I think it's a sign of a weakening society and attitude to continually water down rules so they fall on favor of the rule breakers.

Interesting a certain central Wisconsin program got into a little hot water and many on this site celebrated the chastising and action of the WIAA. What's different about DePere is it that they are not a power house program so let them break the rules?

I can absolutely see why they allowed them to wrestle the Regionals; If they had not concluded the process or investigation and had not allowed them it would be impossible to change that outcome. In other words they cannot go back in time that might have unduly punished them. But by allowing them to wrestle and then finish the ruling or process and then take action on the finding of that process was proper way to conduct it. Because let's say they ruled in favor of DePere but did not allow them to wrestle Regionals? As it stand s based on the ruling they will not advance. Would everyone be happier if they just sanctioned them next year for the entire year?

It is AD and coaches responsibility to see that the rules are followed they are adults accepting that responsibility when they sign the contract and the School agrees to be part of the WIAA. Yup stinks for the kids but life does that sometimes.

[DocWrestling]

Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...

-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?

*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.

Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...

Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again!

Everything is based on the individual.  A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve.   Am I correct?

[foose4]

Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...

-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?

*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.

Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...

Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again!

Everything is based on the individual.  A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve.   Am I correct?

Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption.  Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.

[MARSHDOC]

It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.

I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.

If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.

It's a mess. That's for sure.

The kid who in theory loses to a DePere kid has a legitimate beef?  Give me a break.  Why?  Because the Depere kid might have wrestled a few more matches this season?   There are plenty of schools that wrestle more matches than other schools in the state.  There are also schools fortunate enough to wrestle against great competition during the season, arguably making them better prepared for this part of the season (Stoughton, Kaukauna...).  Should a wrestler that loses in sectionals to a wrestler from one of these programs (there will be many that do) have an equal amount of 'beef'? 

What I mean is that if a rule is determined to have been broken, and an athlete is competing "illegally" according to the current rules, the loser of that match has a legitimate beef. Yes. Legally.

Your point is well taken and I apologize for coming across a bit aggressive in my defense of the Depere kids.  Yes it is not legal, yes they have a beef, but in my opinion it is a very weak beef as to why a wrestler didn't deserve to make it to State.  If my son loses to a Depere wrestler and tells me he deserves a higher spot on the podium because the DePere kid shouldn't have been there I'll probably backhand him.  
Now if athletes from a certain program were found to be using PEDs, working out with college programs during the season, found to be forging their birth certificates and wrestling at the age of 20 etc I would most definitely have a beef.

[bulldog]

Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...

-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?

*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.

Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...

Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again!

Everything is based on the individual.  A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve.   Am I correct?

Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption.  Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.

I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy

Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.

[cedarboy1]

According to section f. of the individual participation limits, forfeits do not count. Based on trackwrestling results, this would only disqualify 2 DePere wrestlers.  Hope I am reading that correctly.
a. A wrestler is not eligible to compete or participate in any pre-meet activity until they have had a minimum weight determined and the school has received a printout from the WIAA office so indicating.
b . A student is limited to representing his school one time in a dual meet, including varsity, nonvarsity, exhibitions and forfeits.
c . No wrestler shall represent his school in more than one weight class in any meet or compete in more than five matches (championship or consolation) in any one day.
d . A student participating at the nonvarsity level in a dual meet may wrestle a maximum of 15 minutes (not including overtimes) provided: (1) No match is scheduled for longer than five minutes. (2) Results of none of these matches are counted toward varsity records.
e . A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and no more than seven of the 14 may be varsity level multipleschool meets (involving total of more than two teams) except, as described in 6. a.
f . If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition maximums

Incorrect interpretation cedarboy. You cannot compete or receive a forfeit if you don't want it to count as an event. If you receive a forfeit, you get a win and team points. That absolutely counts as an event.

Yep, I did. Read it 20 times before I posted it and came up with the same. Now I see it differently. Have removed the post.

[foose4]

I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy

Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.

I believe to do that you had to file proper "Exceptional Athlete" paperwork. Plus it has certain restrictions.  See below

The exceptional athlete provision recognizes only invitations to international competitions sanctioned by each sport's identified National Governing Body (NGB) and Olympic Development Programs (ODP) in representing the USA as eligible for an exceptional athlete waiver. This waiver will allow non-school competition  for a qualifying exceptional athlete during the regular season and during the WIAA Tournament Series.

[Point1223]

Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...

-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?

*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.

Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...

Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again!

Everything is based on the individual.  A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve.   Am I correct?

Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption.  Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.

I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy

Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.

Bulldog....this is incorrect. If one kid weighs in it counts against his max...not the teams

[rl77]

At what point do we choose which rules to enforce and which ones are not important to enforce,(eye of the beholder). WE have all been on both sides of the issue; Bad call your way or good call my way. The can of worms effect; But you let them do it why can't I? Rules can be changed, there is a process. The process of enforcement can handled better or more consistent but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game and expect any good to come out of it.

[bulldog]

Thanks for the correction/clarification Point and foose.

[ramjet]

I dint realize that the WIAA resently just screwed over a top ranked girls volleyball team for the same infractions. So as much as I disagree with how the WIAA handled this situation they have a track record of punching kids for AD mistakes.  
in the future I recommend we as parents all sit down with are AD's and Coaches and hold them accountable for scheduling and a rules meeting. Now that I understand a coaching or an admistative mistake can cost my child to be Eliminated from completing his goals I will be keeping a very close eye on our AD and coaches and expect a lot more communication.
The WIAA is dictating that parents now need to have a much bigger role.

There is process to apply to get rules changed and appeal decisions by the WIAA? But you are correct parents need to make it known that rules need to be followed.

I will tell you this not as an excuse for anyone but as point of information; in small programs and Districts the postion of AD comes in many forms and the time vs pay is pretty pathetic. So too much pressure on the AD in small Diatricts will leave you without an AD. In some schools the Princple may take it on as an additional responsibility. However in those cases thier responsibility as part of the Admin team comes first. I am not speaking to larger programs but just trying to make you aware the approach needs to be one of cooperation and help not with a 4x4 and a rope. Actually in many cases the position of coach falls under the same situation most if not all coaches in smaller programs are doing this for the love of the sport and the wrestlers NOT the money. Again this IS NOT AN EXCUSE just making sure people have the right perspective. I also absolutely encourage you as parent to get involved and ask question about the rules. Parental involvement and community involvement is paramount to a successful program.