PSU/WI

[Huckfinn]

U said half the time he is better huck .any stats to verify? Besides I thought the object was to win.

May I see your stats proving that the #2 is better than #3?  

Only one guy wins all his matches - the champ.    

Even if you accept that the winner of every match is better, the tournament structure is not designed to determine who is #2.   It would take an additional match to do that.

If you wanted to determine the top 8 positions accurately (again, assuming best guy wins in every match) you would need a much bigger consolation structure with more wrestle-back opportunities.

Tournaments are imperfect structures, they make it as fair as possible within time constraints. In addition to the structural limits, faulty seeding and the luck of matchups determine a lot.

My statement that the #3 is as good as #2 half the time was an approximation of what I observe.   The #3 guy actually has been put through a more difficult test, particularly when you realize how closely matched a lot of the top 8 wrestlers are.    Look at the NCAA results and ask yourself who is the better - there often are some relatively unspectacular #2 finishers.    There is a lot of chance involved in advancing.    Taylor Walsh made it to finals last year.   Bryce Meredith.

edit:  or was Taylor Walsh 2 years ago?   My memory is dangerous thing to rely on.

[Huckfinn]

In the interest of science, I decided to submit last years 2nd/3rd ncaa placers to an expert analysis:

2nd   3rd
125 Gillman   *Tomasello
133 Clark     *Brewer
141 Meredith  *McKenna
149 *Sorenson  Mayes
157 *Nolf   Brascetta
165 *I. Jordon  B. Jordon
174 *Nickal Epperly
184 Dudley   *Renda
197 *MacIntosh  Pfarr
285 *Gwiz  Coon

*the man

The conclusion is that I am only partially full of it.

[wrastle63]

Whose the expert? Is it your opinion they are better? Gilman beat Tomasello, Meredith beat Mckenna. Those were matches in the tourney. How can you say Tomasello is better when he lost to the guy head to head

[bigG]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

[bkraus]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

Is Gilman going up to 33? 

No.  Why would he?  Only one wrestler has gone toe to toe with him this year.  His national title is at 125. 

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

[Ivan Stankowski]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

Is Gilman going up to 33? 

No.  Why would he?  Only one wrestler has gone toe to toe with him this year.  His national title is at 125. 

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

He caught him with a throw

[wrastle63]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

Is Gilman going up to 33? 

No.  Why would he?  Only one wrestler has gone toe to toe with him this year.  His national title is at 125. 

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

He caught him with a throw

He didn't catch him. He threw him to his back and pinned him. It wasn't like Kasper fell down.

[aarons23]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

Is Gilman going up to 33? 

No.  Why would he?  Only one wrestler has gone toe to toe with him this year.  His national title is at 125. 

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

He caught him with a throw

Or he set up a successful throw.

[Micah]

Not a Gilman fan at all; but I'm pickin' him over Tomasello. Come a long way.

Is Gilman going up to 33? 

No.  Why would he?  Only one wrestler has gone toe to toe with him this year.  His national title is at 125. 

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

He caught him with a throw

Or he set up a successful throw.

Kasper has been on fire!  Love these small heavies that can move.  He is now ranked 4th.

[Huckfinn]

Kasper has been on fire!  Love these small heavies that can move.  He is now ranked 4th.

Ya, I see both intermat and theopenmat have him at 4 behind Nevills.       We'll have to see if trackwrestling or flo do the right thing and bump him to 3.    He's a solid 3 in the all-important huckfinn poll.

[Huckfinn]

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

OK, all honor and glory to Stone for a great move putting Kasper to his back.   But you have to acknowledge the fact that Kasper is 20-1. One first period misstep in November does not say much about him as a wrestler.  I remember watching Cody Brewer get stuck the season he won a national championship.   There are many instances of great wrestlers getting pinned.

I don't know Stone.  If he was starting, do you expect he would be ranked among the top 5 heavyweights?  If he wrestled Snyder, Medbery, Walz, Kasper and Nevills 20 times each, how many times would he win  against those guys?

As far as my man crush on Kasper, the heart wants what it wants.      Duke?   I don't give a fig about team association.   Wrestling is an individual sport.  Ya, I root for the Badgers.   But if I was stuck just following the Badger wrestlers, I'd be a basketball fan in about 48 hours.

[Huckfinn]

Whose the expert? Is it your opinion they are better? Gilman beat Tomasello, Meredith beat Mckenna. Those were matches in the tourney. How can you say Tomasello is better when he lost to the guy head to head

You make valid points.   My expert  analysis involved me copying the 2nd-3rd place finishers from wikipedia and quickly marking who I think is better.

It's true that when the 2nd-3rd place finishers meet in the tournament, then there is a good argument for #2 being better.  I think you'll find that happens less than half the time.    If we leave my subjective judgement out of it, lots of those guys I marked as better ought to be marked as "unknown."

Here are some facts to think about:
The #2 and #3 wrestlers both lost exactly 1 match
The #2  won 4 matches.  The #3  won between  5 and 10 matches
Both guys vanquished the same field of wrestlers, so they both faced roughly the same good competition.  Some of #3's extra matches could be against lesser guys, but #3 has to beat top level guys too.
Unless #2 and #3 wrestled, there are arguments both ways on  which guy is better

[Barou]

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

OK, all honor and glory to Stone for a great move putting Kasper to his back.   But you have to acknowledge the fact that Kasper is 20-1. One first period misstep in November does not say much about him as a wrestler.  I remember watching Cody Brewer get stuck the season he won a national championship.   There are many instances of great wrestlers getting pinned.

I don't know Stone.  If he was starting, do you expect he would be ranked among the top 5 heavyweights?  If he wrestled Snyder, Medbery, Walz, Kasper and Nevills 20 times each, how many times would he win  against those guys?

As far as my man crush on Kasper, the heart wants what it wants.      Duke?   I don't give a fig about team association.   Wrestling is an individual sport.  Ya, I root for the Badgers.   But if I was stuck just following the Badger wrestlers, I'd be a basketball fan in about 48 hours.

On this board Huck you will find that if a badger defeated someone they are automatically better and if they meet up again you should assume they will win.  Happens all the time.  Herbst beat M Askren so clearly Herbst is better.  Of course Askren AA'd 3 x's and won a NT compared to Herbst's 1 AA BUT at the time you were supposed to assume Herbst was better because of a victory in December.  Last year Taylor was better than Richards because Taylor beat him the year before.  Didn't matter that Richards was undefeated until the Big 10's you had to assume Taylor was better....until they wrestled and Richards won.

[wrastle63]

Huck, are you related to Kasper?  You are stating a pretty emotional defense for a wrestler from Duke.  You also said you didn't watch the dual, and Stone "caught" him.  I did watch the dual and I disagree.  Stone didn't catch him, Stone threw him.  Big difference.

OK, all honor and glory to Stone for a great move putting Kasper to his back.   But you have to acknowledge the fact that Kasper is 20-1. One first period misstep in November does not say much about him as a wrestler.  I remember watching Cody Brewer get stuck the season he won a national championship.   There are many instances of great wrestlers getting pinned.

I don't know Stone.  If he was starting, do you expect he would be ranked among the top 5 heavyweights?  If he wrestled Snyder, Medbery, Walz, Kasper and Nevills 20 times each, how many times would he win  against those guys?

As far as my man crush on Kasper, the heart wants what it wants.      Duke?   I don't give a fig about team association.   Wrestling is an individual sport.  Ya, I root for the Badgers.   But if I was stuck just following the Badger wrestlers, I'd be a basketball fan in about 48 hours.

On this board Huck you will find that if a badger defeated someone they are automatically better and if they meet up again you should assume they will win.  Happens all the time.  Herbst beat M Askren so clearly Herbst is better.  Of course Askren AA'd 3 x's and won a NT compared to Herbst's 1 AA BUT at the time you were supposed to assume Herbst was better because of a victory in December.  Last year Taylor was better than Richards because Taylor beat him the year before.  Didn't matter that Richards was undefeated until the Big 10's you had to assume Taylor was better....until they wrestled and Richards won.

Taylor was hurt that is completely different. Also Taylor didn't just beat Richards he humilated him and made him look bad. If Taylor was healthy he would win. No one said Stone is a better wrestler. Stone beat him and if Stone beat him I have a hard time seeing Kasper beat Medberry. I agree Kasper looks very good right now and time will tell what happens at NCAAs.

[Huckfinn]

Stone beat him and if Stone beat him I have a hard time seeing Kasper beat Medberry.  

Stone beating Kasper does not prove Stone is better than Kasper.  It was one move in one match.

If you really believe Stone is better than Kasper, then you must expect he would be ranked #3 if he were competing as a starter.

I think Medbery is clearly better than Kasper.   But due to both of their styles, I think Kasper has a chance to upset Medbery.  

HW is like 197 in that the #1 is a clear favorite, Olympians in fact.   And the #2 (Medbery and Pfarr) are well ahead of the rest of the pack.