Are wrestling schools hurting teams?

[tmandr]

This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it.  Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season?  Absolutely! 

Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season?  Absolutely again.  Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport.  In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport?  I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying it is a factor.

[Jim Rockford]

This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it.  Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season?  Absolutely!  

Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season?  Absolutely again.  Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport.  In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport?  I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying it is a factor.

You can't blame that on wrestling schools.  In our program in Milton we have kids that do go to these wrestling schools and then we have the kids that do not.  The kids that do not go to the wrestling schools work just as hard in practice as the kids that do go to the schools.  The kids are not being alienated by the schools.  Many of these schools will let the average wrestler join so he can get better just like everyone else.  These kids do not have to wrestle year round so I do not understand your argument for the down time in the off-season.  If the average wrestler quits to play video games then that is due to his own laziness, not the wrestling schools.

[ramjet]

This isn't a ridiculous question as many have portrayed it.  Have these training opportunities outside school season offerings improved the quality of wrestling by increasing exposure to quality technique and partners, especially during the off season?  Absolutely! 

Have they alienated average wrestlers who are willing to participate in the most grueling sport available in high school for 4 months but would like to explore other opportunities and have some down time in the off season?  Absolutely again.  Right of Wrong, this is at least one of the factors influencing decreasing numbers in the sport.  In the xbox generation, where kids can be a legend in their own mind with a few well timed flicks of a hand controller, why would they bust their butts for 4 months and then come to the realization it is usually not enough to be great at the sport?  I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying it is a factor.

Well if kids are using this as an excuse  then it is weak one at that, the numbers are decreasing for many reasons young men in wrestling schools is not that much of factor. Heck school enrollment is declining the opportunities outside wrestling that may not take the work or discipline are plentiful. In fact good training and off season opportunities may be the one thing that is driving the sport in the right direction. What kids are afraid to loose? Or like the Singlet issue is it just another weak excuse to not work hard in a tough individual sport. Every young man and women have the same opportunity to go to off season programs they are not all expensive schools. Just doing off season tournaments that are plentiful will help.  Whats the excuse for that? These training opportunities are great for the sport and their is no real down side. If  young man/lady has a bad attitude or a holier than thou attitude because they go a Wrestling School then the coach needs to deal with that if the kid is tough enough to back the attitude then maybe someone needs to step up and help him tone it down? (thats the team side of the sport). But this cry baby crap about these schools ruining the sport is just weak excuse. What maybe in High School we should just give everyone a trophy for being there and instead of wrestling for first place maybe just little participation trophy is in order? 

You want to see tough go watch a College Tournament then the High School dual meet may not look so tough. but you may be right those competitors want to be there and work hard and take their lumps to get better.

I think what it is is some folks want to say and use the excuse that others put in the time and training to become very good and it is a convenient excuse to say why another kid maybe yours is not doing so well?

School or not you still have to work your tail off to get better. The Wrestling Schools just do not wave a wand over the top of your kid and they are State Champions.......

I am not speaking to you exclusively because I do not know you but you get what I am saying.

[imnofish]

Club coaches get paid much more than HS coaches per hour and don't have half the hassles of grades and physicals and don't have to deal with all the issues of the other athletes that are not as committed, etc.

HS coaches like to have some pride in the few wrestlers they have that do compete outside of the HS season and do well as it helps validate all their hard work and makes it worth it in a sense as well as promoting their program.  HS wrestling coaches have a lot to deal with with athletes, parents, and administrators and they put in an inordinate amount of time so put a smile on their faces by putting down your hometown high school as your team.

+1  Not to mention all of time most of them spend planning lessons, teaching classes, grading papers, taking college classes to maintain their teaching license, etc. 

[littleguy301]

Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.

For crying out loud this is so simple..............

During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.

In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.

Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.

I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of......................

Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.

I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.

I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.

I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.

[DocWrestling]

I think wrestling schools are outstanding and give those wrestlers so many advantages for training out of season.

My point was that nobody has more time and effort invested in helping a wrestler than his HS coach.  That is on and off the mat in school, life and wrestling.  I hope wrestlers (and parents) realize and appreciate that fact as many wrestlers are enamored with the club coaches wrestling credentials and experiences and often put them on a pedestal higher than their HS coach/program. 

[ramjet]

Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.

For crying out loud this is so simple..............

During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.

In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.

Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.

I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of......................

Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.

I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.

I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.

I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.

LG name these school that do that I am curious as to who they are.

Plus they look at these forums and I actually think that is heresay. If the kids acts that way it not taught at these schools if it is lets get it out out in the open so they can respond.

I think in the off season some clubs might want kids to use the club name thats OK but I have NEVER heard of one that says the kid has to use the Clubs name during the season not once so I an curious as to who these clubs are? In fact specifically heard one coach of club say he could care less who put down at Greco State and FS.

[ramjet]

I think wrestling schools are outstanding and give those wrestlers so many advantages for training out of season.

My point was that nobody has more time and effort invested in helping a wrestler than his HS coach.  That is on and off the mat in school, life and wrestling.  I hope wrestlers (and parents) realize and appreciate that fact as many wrestlers are enamored with the club coaches wrestling credentials and experiences and often put them on a pedestal higher than their HS coach/program.  

Some of these wrestlers spend MORE time with the Wrestling School coaches than the High School Coach just because of contact rules and because in the summer and fall and spring the High School coaches may be coaching other sports or even may not want to talk wrestling year around so that statement is very broad and not accurate.

I think your second paragraph is out of line. You would be impressed and I wonder if you even understand how guys like Dennis Hall and Arnie and Askren, Jordon Crass interact with the kids, they live and breath wrestling/life they care about the kids and for you to say other wise is completely without cause or reason and frankly is slap in the face to people who are genuine and promoting the sport the right way. I see your posts as sour grapes for some reason or perhaps you think it is not "fair" certain young men/gals have this opportunity? These guys for sure take pride in helping shape young men/women who may not be all that good into solid competitive wrestlers with out prejudice as to ability to pay or even athletic ability. They teach work ethic, discipline, commitment and they all expect good solid sportsmanship.

Not sure what your angle is but reeks to high heaven this thread was not about the High School Coach most everyone has high respect for those people and Wrestling Schools in most cases work with coaches to help them improve their programs...

For you or anyone to infer these men would in any way sabotage a High School program or undermine the High School Coach is absolutely ludicrous. The kid may be too big for his/her britches after attending but that is more reflection on the kid than any program they are part of.  Because the people I mentioned not one of them would be happy with that behavior.

I will also tell you plenty of High School coaches I know specific instances do not put much effort or time into a program they have not and do not put in the the extra effort. But that does not demean the efforts and work that most of them put forth and it should not. Also know some of who you referring to about the time they spend get paid to do so all day long because they are also teachers.

[ramjet]

If I remember correctly someone a page or so back stated he was told by a club coach to write the club down or stop coming.

Then name the CLUB I bet it is a misinterpretation and that may have been for offseason competition not during the High School year, again, without specific names and the right for that Club Coach to defend themselves it is speculation.

Why do people want to put down opportunities that hard working kids want to pursue to get better, because their kid may not want too?

Again the Wrestling Schools do not wave their hand over the wrestler and make them a State Champion it takes allot of work. Work they obviously are NOT getting in the High School Room or they would not pay to get that somewhere else.

What is getting me reeved up is this thread and some folks come across like this; Not all kids can work so hard or want to work so hard to be as good as those who do, so we should make everyone the same level so no one gets their feeling hurt by loosing . In other words the wins and State Titles should just be handed out to everyone. Participation medals.................

[ICEMAN112]

Here are a few reasons our Club requires Youth wrestlers to register under our Club and to wear our singlets during the folkstyle season:

1. Registering under our club  will most likely split club members up from Wrestling each other at tournaments-trackwrestling will seperate them by doing this. Why travel across the state or to national tournaments to get your wrestling partner first round.

2. Wearing the club singlet helps the coaches find their wrestlers quickly when they walk on the mat. It also promotes the team aspect. National tournaments they are allowed to wear any singlets.

3. Wrestling for 1 team also helps each wrestler. They have a choice..wrestle for the club or wrestle for their team only. It prevents the kids from showing up on a part time basis which in the long run hurts the team. HS kids dont have that choice to choose to wrestle 1 day for a club and next for their team. Their partners expect them to be there everyday.

4. Our club allows HS Wrestlers to train extra for free during the folkstyle season..thats right free. I'm really trying to understand How Wrestling schools hurt teams? Our little guys look up to these HS kids and makes them work harder. When they see a HS kid come in after already putting in 2-3 hours at school and see these hs kids dominating it only promotes both programs!

Just my opinion

[ramjet]

The key word is Youth.

If the School has Youth Program and are their with the Public School team the requirement to wear your singlet is not an issue because you did not bring them there correct?

[ICEMAN112]

Yes Ramjet. We have several kids that wrestle for their middle schools and come to our practices. If they travel with their school they wear their school singlet. Usually these are School programs and dont affect open tournaments.

[picklesnthings]

If you are questioning whether wrestling schools are hurting teams - just throwing this out there - what about clubs? i am all for them - but let me explain.  Our junior high wrestling season is just starting next week - it is the way our conference is set up.  The past five years we have probably only had 10-12 wrestlers (7th/8th grade) each year.  I couldn't figure out why so many good athletes were not giving wrestling a try, especially football players.  I had at least a dozen kids say - I don't do club and I am already behind the eight ball compared to all the other kids.  I talked with many of these kids and explained to them that it doesn't matter if you never tried it before - we will try to put against kids that are at your skill level and I explained that sometimes you will get a good kid but that's ok.  I told them stories of how we had kids not start wrestling until their sophomore year in high school and make it to state their senior year.  I told them of kids not being able to wrestle themselves out of a paper bag their freshman year and then being a 3 time varsity starter with 20+ wins each year.  I have given them a vision - if this group of 30 (yes I got 30 kids to sign up) can stick together, and it is a very athletic group - we can win conference championships, maybe get to team state depending on how hard they work.  We have been hurting for numbers in high school for a few years - I went out to change that - and I think I did.  I got this quote off a website and I have said it to the kids - "Every time a player fully commits to the team, the team's strength multiplies. Commitment follows trust. All in!"   I hope to carry that quote with them the next 5-6 years.   Sorry if I got a little off the point but I learned if you want kids out - get out and talk to them and ease some of their fears of trying wrestling.

[Hand Control]

Yes Ram I was told to put the club name down, so it is not speculation. And that is what I am going to go back to doing. The club coaches do put there time in and do care about all the kids. I will say it again I just didn't see it as a big deal and wanted to hear some other opinions. So Iceman as always you have handled this with class. And I'm glad you said it most likely separates the kids, because eventually the better kids usually come together anyways and for smaller tourneys sometimes they don't get separated anyways. I guess this has been a real eye opener on a lot of levels. One of which is to how schools like Stratford have been able to grow in numbers like they have, they put down Stratford for the tourneys they go to, out of pride for their school. And I doubt that any of the clubs they go to say, If you do that with your kid don't come back to our wrestling school. As I am sure they know they have put the time in with the kids too, but they are probably just happy they are wrestling. Again thanks to those that have had made suggestions.

[littleguy301]

Doc, I just do not even believe that you are bringing up coaches pay on this thread that is ridiculous and totally out of line.

For crying out loud this is so simple..............

During the School Year while wrestling for your school that is the name they use period.

In the off season if they compete in an off season Tournament then use whatever name you want....at that point the rules laid out by the WIAA may be in violation if they are wrestling for their school? Plus when they train with that "other" team they should be part of that "other" team. Plus how many of these High School Coaches other than few obvious ones put the extra time in for Greco and FS in the off season or run off season camps or practices? Well first off as I mentioned they are limited by the WIAA and secondly those who do open it for everyone from all over the area to circumvent the stupid WIAA rules then that group becomes a team by another name.

Pride and all that is understandable you have the choice but do not force your choice onto someone else.

I can tell you all the so called "Wrestling Schools" my son attended the coaches NEVER required or said that he should give them a plug. NOT ONE.........well except for the National Greco Team. Then it was Team Wisconsin I hope the local school was not mad at him for writing down Wisconsin instead of......................

Much ado about nothing extra work and commitment for offseason Wrestling makes the wrestlers better in 99% of the cases and those who are great without then so be it. But sod not try put down or find areason to complain because they are working extra hard or putting in the extra time.

I like your thought but the problem is that there are a few clubs that demand you wrestle under the clubs name like someone posted earlier. I should say, wrestle for our club or your out.

I find that kind of sad. I do think that most coaches are in this to make the wrestlers better and should work together to get the most out of the wrestlers, not working against each other and fighting over kids.

I am all for wrestling schools, great chance to wrestler more and get great partners. I think that is win/win for all involved.

LG name these school that do that I am curious as to who they are.

Plus they look at these forums and I actually think that is heresay. If the kids acts that way it not taught at these schools if it is lets get it out out in the open so they can respond.

I think in the off season some clubs might want kids to use the club name thats OK but I have NEVER heard of one that says the kid has to use the Clubs name during the season not once so I an curious as to who these clubs are? In fact specifically heard one coach of club say he could care less who put down at Greco State and FS.

I am not going to sit back and blast away about stories from parents around the way.

Most of the problems are over regionals. I havent heard many problems about Greco and Freestyle because most public schools dont offer that and they have to go to outside clubs for that.

I think most of the problems come from the time of regionals where some public schools are still having middle school wrestling and the wrestlers are wrestling for another school during that time.

I would also think that if that school is WIAA then you might have some code issues also.

Once again I am for outside help and I encourage it from my stand point also. I think the main problem is communication between the clubs and school coaches.