Reducing Weight Classes

[Numbers]

https://www.change.org/p/nfhs-nfhs-wrestling-weigh-classes-all-sizes-matter

I'll post this again.  Take a look.  Not everyone in Pennsylvania is happy about the proposed changes.

This is not a weight class issue, it's a participation issue!  I wrestled 103 as a freshman and 112 as a sophomore and I remember having plenty of forfeits. This is not a new issue!  I don't remember my parents generation ever suggesting eliminating the weight class!!!  Is my generation really going to be this selfish and foolish?  I'm sorry some teams can't fill the weight class but you don't eliminate the opportunity for all the other kids.  I truly believe this would decimate our numbers if it happened. So many kids would quit in middle school because they wouldn't feel they had a spot to wrestle in high school.  It seems as though some on this forum don't realize the 106/113lb freshman and sophomores GROW INTO  the lower middle weights as junior and seniors.  If they quit in MS then we will start seeing forfeits at 126, 132,138 because there won't be any kids there to grow into those weights.  I would list all the great wrestlers that started their careers at the lowest weight classes but that would take me about 20 years to finish...

You realize some great wrestlers spend a year on JV as a freshman?  They survived.

There are always going to be plenty of people on multiple sides of any issue in wrestling or life.  Not a surprise you found some on the other side.  Look at national politics.  Look at seeding the state tournament.  Look at athlete suspensions for rules infractions.  Should pot be legalized?  Never going to make everyone happy.  Hard enough to keep a majority happy.

[Fish]

I do realize some great wrestlers spent a year on JV and survived.  I also know a lot of good wrestlers that quit as freshman because they didn't make varsity.  Do I think they should have quit? Absolutely not!!  But that's just the way it is.  I guarantee 80% of 8th graders that weigh under 100lbs will quit if 106 gets eliminated or bumped up to 110. Again, that's just the way it is.  I am a middle school coach and I know that I would have a couple kids quit if this change happened. Why would anyone think changing the lowest weight class would be good for the sport?? Tell me how this would boost our participation numbers!  I guarantee it would do the exact opposite.

[downtown]

Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight.  Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships.  It is varsity.  I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade.  Guess why?  He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter.  If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome.  If not no big deal.  Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs.  Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman.  Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football.  Grow into your frame and become better at your sport. 

[Fish]

We're adamant about keeping the lowest weight so the smaller kids don't quit.  It has nothing to do with winning a state championship as a freshman, or even being on varsity.  You do realize that the JV weight classes are the same as the varsity  weights right? Therefore there wouldn't be a spot on JV for these kids either. 
Why are people so adamant about changing the lowest weight?? Because there are some forfeits?? So what! There have been forfeits forever! 
Please tell me how this would boost our participation numbers!  I can give you a lot of examples of how this will hurt our participation numbers.(see my previous posts)

How about this: 105,115,125,135,145,155,165,175,185,195,210,hwt.  There's your 12 classes.

[MNbadger]

Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat.  Wrestling matches athletes by weight.  You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary.  By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states).  We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers.  As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.

Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight.  Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships.  It is varsity.  I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade.  Guess why?  He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter.  If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome.  If not no big deal.  Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs.  Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman.  Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football.  Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.

[DocWrestling]

Why is that if a kid weighs 135 as a freshman and spends two years on JV because he can't break the lineup at 138 or 145 behind grown boys who are juniors and seniors, he dos not quit?

But if a kid weighs 100lbs as a freshman he will quit because the lowest weight class is 110 or 113.

Does anybody besides me think that JV weight classes and varsity weight classes should be different?  The lowest JV weight class might be lower than 106?  They should not be the same weights as varsity.  Makes no sense.

I am not hiding behind the fact that I think 106 lbers have been given an easier path.  They have learned a lot of accolades with seldom ever having to wrestle a junior or senior.  We all have to admit it is an easier path when you have fewer kids overall in the weight class across the state and very few of them have the physical maturity of an upperclassmen.  This, while many heavier freshman have to battle juniors and seniors to even get a varsity spot much less go to state.  But I do think the that wrestling is the perfect spot for the little guys which is why I do not want to eliminate them from individual competitions.  I only want to eliminate 106 from duals and many of these 106lbers could wrestle 113.

Looking for someone to do the research...
How many teams filled both 106 and 113 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
How many teams filled both 220 and 285 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?

[DocWrestling]

Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat.  Wrestling matches athletes by weight.  You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary.  By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states).  We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers.  As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.

Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight.  Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships.  It is varsity.  I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade.  Guess why?  He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter.  If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome.  If not no big deal.  Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs.  Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman.  Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football.  Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.

It is not common for any male freshman to compete in varsity athletics in any sport including wrestling.  It is a hard thing for any freshman to compete with upper classmen but some have the talent to do it. I would say that probably less than 10% of all varsity male athletes across ALL sports are freshman.  But it is certainly much more common at 106 and 113 than at other weight classes.  Wrestling may even have the highest percentage of freshman on varsity than any other sport and that might be because of light weight classes or even to many weight classes so they need to be filled by someone.

It is a bit more common in female sports where there are fewer participants and there is less physical difference between a senior and freshman

[padre]

At the end of the day I take it the naysayers don't like exciting wrestling?  The 106/113 are some of the most exciting matches out there.  For many this is their sport and on the average put more time into it.  They don't have the opportunity to be a varsity candidate in most sports due to their size.  I would venture to guess if there was a list of one sport athletes the kids that fill those weights would be in the lead. 

That being said last year 106 had 3 freshman finalists along with two sophomores and a junior.  113 had 0 freshman finalists with a senior, 3 juniors and 2 sophomore.  Shows these are far from freshman weight classes and the skill of the three frosh are equal to or better than almost any senior out there...these kids wrestle year round.

Now would the senior, 3 juniors and the sophomores still have been out had they been way under weight as frosh?  Or being real light junior highers would they have just gotten away from the sport?  We will never know...but the one thing we do know is they stayed out because there were light weight classes.  Keeping the light classes doesn't hurt numbers...moving them higher will definitely not bring more wrestlers in.  I think on that we can agree.

So really what's the end game?  More matches won't be wrestled with less weight classes.  Maybe a forfeit here or there won't be scored...but does it really matter at the end of the day?  Teams that had a lot of forfeits aren't going to all of a sudden win a bunch of duals.  Many of us go to the state tournament and we will lose matches throughout the tournament series that may have benefited the wrestler on your team...and isn't that what those of us that coach should want?  There will be lots of kids that missed out on opportunities every weekend...I just can't fathom why people want that.

As for this JV dream world some of you live in...most high school teams aren't afforded all of these coaches that they will have JV teams traveling around to these meets.  JV teams could be what?  1 or 2 kids more than had there been no weight class reduction?  The teams with forfeits aren't moving their kids to JV...those that don't have forfeits will be moving a kid to JV.  There isn't going to all of a sudden be these big JV teams because on the average there will be 1/2 a kid more dropped down.  The teams that will have big JV teams are the same teams that had no forfeits.

In 1984 I was talked into wrestling by the coach because he said I'd earn a letter at 105.  I left basketball after much thought and then got my butt kicked for a year....my ego earned that letter.  However, I didn't quit and then got my brother to join the following year along with some friends.  Now had there not been a freshman friendly weight for little guys none of that would have happened. So in our school at the time it helped to increase numbers...this is what we should always be looking to do.  And yes there were plenty of forfeits then too but I'm thankful for the opportunity that was presented by the sport and because of that one opportunity to me I've given 100s of opportunities at all levels of wrestling to kids.  One lost opportunity would have cost a lot to our small community.

[MNbadger]

Well put.

At the end of the day I take it the naysayers don't like exciting wrestling?  The 106/113 are some of the most exciting matches out there.  For many this is their sport and on the average put more time into it.  They don't have the opportunity to be a varsity candidate in most sports due to their size.  I would venture to guess if there was a list of one sport athletes the kids that fill those weights would be in the lead. 

That being said last year 106 had 3 freshman finalists along with two sophomores and a junior.  113 had 0 freshman finalists with a senior, 3 juniors and 2 sophomore.  Shoes these are far from freshman weight classes and the skill of the three frosh are equal to or better than almost any senior out there...these kids wrestle year round.

Now would the senior, 3 juniors and the sophomores still have been out had they been way under weight as frosh?  Or being real light junior highers would they have just gotten away from the sport?  We will never know...but the one thing we do know is they stayed out because there were light weight classes.  Keeping the light classes doesn't hurt numbers...moving them higher will definitely not bring more wrestlers in.  I think on that we can agree.

So really what's the end game?  More matches won't be wrestled with less weight classes.  Maybe a forfeit here or there won't be scored...but does it really matter at the end of the day?  Teams that had a lot of forfeits aren't going to all of a sudden win a bunch of duals.  Many of us go to the state tournament and we will lose matches throughout the tournament series that may have benefited the wrestler on your team...and at the end of the day isn't that what those of us that coach should want?  There will be lots of kids that missed out on opportunities every weekend...I just can't fathom why people want that.

As for this JV dream world some of you live in...most high school teams aren't afforded all of these coaches that they will have JV teams traveling around to these meets.  JV teams could be what?  1 or 2 kids more than had there be no weight class reduction?  The teams with forfeits aren't moving their kids to JV...those that don't have forfeits will be moving a kid to JV.  There isn't going to all of a sudden be these big JV teams because on the average there will be 1/2 a kid more dropped down.

[Numbers]

Why is that if a kid weighs 135 as a freshman and spends two years on JV because he can't break the lineup at 138 or 145 behind grown boys who are juniors and seniors, he dos not quit?

But if a kid weighs 100lbs as a freshman he will quit because the lowest weight class is 110 or 113.

Does anybody besides me think that JV weight classes and varsity weight classes should be different?  The lowest JV weight class might be lower than 106?  They should not be the same weights as varsity.  Makes no sense.

I am not hiding behind the fact that I think 106 lbers have been given an easier path.  They have learned a lot of accolades with seldom ever having to wrestle a junior or senior.  We all have to admit it is an easier path when you have fewer kids overall in the weight class across the state and very few of them have the physical maturity of an upperclassmen.  This, while many heavier freshman have to battle juniors and seniors to even get a varsity spot much less go to state.  But I do think the that wrestling is the perfect spot for the little guys which is why I do not want to eliminate them from individual competitions.  I only want to eliminate 106 from duals and many of these 106lbers could wrestle 113.

Looking for someone to do the research...
How many teams filled both 106 and 113 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
How many teams filled both 220 and 285 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?

If 110 becomes the lowest varsity weight, I think 103 should be added as a JV weight.

And since any change is likely a year away hopefully Wisconsin has a separate girls division before boys weight classes change.  I have not seen much discussion of number of weight classes and weights for high school girls.

[littleguy301]

Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year.  I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.

Will start with my own.

1. Preston Spray  started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3  Tyler Klein have you seen this kid?  He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey

I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too.  There are many many others that are small and put in the work.  But have not Fully developed as young men.  I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.

The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives.  I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110.   To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.

For the record if any class needs work or if they are foing to reduce anything it should be combining 195 and 220. Never liked adding an upper weight class.

Now please hit me harder to drive home your point of size.

Noticed I didn't say an age for a high schooler gaining 10 pounds?

While I dont know all the kids on the list I do know that some of the kids lost weight for at one point in the past year or so.

All because you have a 93 pound kid dont cut them to 88 if they are cadets. Pretty hard to put on weight if your dropping 5 to 7% of your body weight just to place better in some off season tournament.

If you want growth, give the young athlete a time frame to grow with out dropping one ounce.

Ben askren and Tommy rowlands had more than a few shows about this same thing. Kyle dake, David Taylor have talked the same. Allow yourself/athlete to grow and train. Wrestle what ever weight.

I was hoping some one was going to bring up manny drexler. Doubt he dropped much if anything, and I doubt he has missed any weight room sessions.

[wrastle63]

Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year.  I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.

Will start with my own.

1. Preston Spray  started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3  Tyler Klein have you seen this kid?  He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey

I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too.  There are many many others that are small and put in the work.  But have not Fully developed as young men.  I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.

The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives.  I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110.   To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.

For the record if any class needs work or if they are foing to reduce anything it should be combining 195 and 220. Never liked adding an upper weight class.

Now please hit me harder to drive home your point of size.

Noticed I didn't say an age for a high schooler gaining 10 pounds?

While I dont know all the kids on the list I do know that some of the kids lost weight for at one point in the past year or so.

All because you have a 93 pound kid dont cut them to 88 if they are cadets. Pretty hard to put on weight if your dropping 5 to 7% of your body weight just to place better in some off season tournament.

If you want growth, give the young athlete a time frame to grow with out dropping one ounce.

Ben askren and Tommy rowlands had more than a few shows about this same thing. Kyle dake, David Taylor have talked the same. Allow yourself/athlete to grow and train. Wrestle what ever weight.

I was hoping some one was going to bring up manny drexler. Doubt he dropped much if anything, and I doubt he has missed any weight room sessions.

He's spent more time in a weight room than anyone. He probably could have been 113 this year if he wanted but his brother was there.

[Tims]

I'm not sure if you are refferring to me cutting Preston to 88 pounds as a cadet.  Yea after 8th grade year he was weighing 90 pounds and wrestled 88 pounds for the Dual team If you knew how much ice cream Preston eats you would hardly call this cutting weight.  We didn't go to Fargo for the very reason of wanting to grow and get ready for 106 not 110.

[imnofish]

We had a junior this year who weighed around 90 lbs.  He's very muscular.  He won a few matches and at least contributed to the team.  No way this kid is ever going to be 110 next year.  No way there will be enough JV experiences available for kids like him.  Is it fair to kids like him, if we make their challenges even greater than they are already?  Personally, I don't think so.  I was small like him, when I was a freshman, but eventually grew into a middle weight wrestler.  One thing that attracted me to wrestling was the fact that I had the opportunity to wrestle other kids who weighed 95 lbs., rather than trying to compete against kids more than double my weight, or at least a foot taller than me.  Wrestling is the fairest sport there is, when it comes to accommodating kids of all sizes.  Abandoning that strength would be a big mistake.

[bulldog]

There seems several people that think the solution is to eliminate the 105 lb weight class and let these kids wrestle JV. Sure...that is fine...how many JV matches are we seeing today? If there isn't enough kids to fill a 105 lb weight class now at some schools why would JV give these kids more opportunity to wrestle. By eliminating a weight class we are not going to see more kids come into the sport.

So are we looking for ways to increase participation or ways to eliminate positions?

Eliminating weights has not worked. Killed off the 98 lb weight class because there were not enough 98 lb wrestlers. I believe the debate was pretty much the same as we are having now. That the 98 lb wrestlers will be on JV for a year until they "grow into" the new 103 lb weight class. But then the kids were not filling 103 so let's bump up to 105. Now 105 doesn't have enough so let's kill 105 and bump to 110.

This format leads to the conclusion in 5-10 years some will say to kill the 110 weight class and bump to 113. Looks like a negative trend to me. Killing off weight class has NOT increased JV participation in the sport.