Filling Weight Classes-The 2021-22 Data

[Ghetto]

I believe there is a momentum swell when you have good duals. Kids come out to be a part of a program that has excitement IMO.

There's no way any sport could practice 1 or 2 days a week and be competitive. While we may need to change the way we practice, there are fundamental parts of wrestling and practice that cannot be compromised.

[Handles II]

How does that equate? Since you said it is largely family members, won't those same family members come and watch their child wrestle if there are 12 weights rather than 14? Won't they watch JV rather than Varsity if that's the case?  Duals are what bring in fans from the community that won't attend tournaments. Duals will bring in members of the student body that won't go to tournaments on Saturdays. Duals will very often have administrators and school board members there who wouldn't otherwise attend wrestling at all.  When it's a 30 minute pre-determined dual with one JV match and 7 forfeits, that's simply not a good look and the people who are in charge of the budget remember it. Don't believe it? Start asking teams that were cut how some of the decisions were made.

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

So we are going to switch to a 30 minute predetermined dual with one JV match and 3 forfeits. That will make our sport so much better. Does that change the product at all? It is the same teams and wrestlers. Teams with small numbers need to bump wrestlers up to get matches in a dual scenario where possible. A match is better than a forfeit. You think this is a solution, but doesn't change the product. The only way to make the product better is the coach, alumni, parents, etc getting kids out for the sport, building a solid feeder program whether that is middle school and/or youth, positive coaching so kids enjoy the sport, and putting in the work that it requires to have a successful program.

Does getting a new red paintjob actually change the green car, or just the perception of the car?  While as purists we might think that there is no difference between the number of forfeits at 14 weights vs having potentially fewer of them and more JV with fewer weights. We also aren't the people in charge of the decision making process related to budget cuts in a school district. Most of us would coach 1 kid if that was all we had, to give them the chance to wrestle. Unfortunately the bean counters don't really care about our passion.  Fewer forfeits might not change the actual number of wrestlers, but it can change the perception of observers.

[wrastle63]

How does that equate? Since you said it is largely family members, won't those same family members come and watch their child wrestle if there are 12 weights rather than 14? Won't they watch JV rather than Varsity if that's the case?  Duals are what bring in fans from the community that won't attend tournaments. Duals will bring in members of the student body that won't go to tournaments on Saturdays. Duals will very often have administrators and school board members there who wouldn't otherwise attend wrestling at all.  When it's a 30 minute pre-determined dual with one JV match and 7 forfeits, that's simply not a good look and the people who are in charge of the budget remember it. Don't believe it? Start asking teams that were cut how some of the decisions were made.

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

So we are going to switch to a 30 minute predetermined dual with one JV match and 3 forfeits. That will make our sport so much better. Does that change the product at all? It is the same teams and wrestlers. Teams with small numbers need to bump wrestlers up to get matches in a dual scenario where possible. A match is better than a forfeit. You think this is a solution, but doesn't change the product. The only way to make the product better is the coach, alumni, parents, etc getting kids out for the sport, building a solid feeder program whether that is middle school and/or youth, positive coaching so kids enjoy the sport, and putting in the work that it requires to have a successful program.

Does getting a new red paintjob actually change the green car, or just the perception of the car?  While as purists we might think that there is no difference between the number of forfeits at 14 weights vs having potentially fewer of them and more JV with fewer weights. We also aren't the people in charge of the decision making process related to budget cuts in a school district. Most of us would coach 1 kid if that was all we had, to give them the chance to wrestle. Unfortunately the bean counters don't really care about our passion.  Fewer forfeits might not change the actual number of wrestlers, but it can change the perception of observers.

LOL....keep moving the goal posts.

[Handles II]

How does that equate? Since you said it is largely family members, won't those same family members come and watch their child wrestle if there are 12 weights rather than 14? Won't they watch JV rather than Varsity if that's the case?  Duals are what bring in fans from the community that won't attend tournaments. Duals will bring in members of the student body that won't go to tournaments on Saturdays. Duals will very often have administrators and school board members there who wouldn't otherwise attend wrestling at all.  When it's a 30 minute pre-determined dual with one JV match and 7 forfeits, that's simply not a good look and the people who are in charge of the budget remember it. Don't believe it? Start asking teams that were cut how some of the decisions were made.

Yep.  And the reality is that our fan base whether in dual form or individual is largely the families of the wrestlers themselves.  My point is that the fans don't really drive wrestling, budgeting, or anything about it other than more individuals wrestling will equal more fans. Cutting weights will simply cut fans as well.

"Facts are duals are what get the most people coming into the gym and watching wrestling. Hardcore fans will travel to tournaments, but it won't give exposure to the sport like home duals will. "

Does the WIAA dual tournament draw more fans than the individual tournament?

I'm far too lazy to look it up, but I'm gonna guess there were 200 teams represented at 2020 individual state vs 16. Of course there was higher attendance.

I'm in the camp that says competitive duals help build programs.

So we are going to switch to a 30 minute predetermined dual with one JV match and 3 forfeits. That will make our sport so much better. Does that change the product at all? It is the same teams and wrestlers. Teams with small numbers need to bump wrestlers up to get matches in a dual scenario where possible. A match is better than a forfeit. You think this is a solution, but doesn't change the product. The only way to make the product better is the coach, alumni, parents, etc getting kids out for the sport, building a solid feeder program whether that is middle school and/or youth, positive coaching so kids enjoy the sport, and putting in the work that it requires to have a successful program.

Does getting a new red paintjob actually change the green car, or just the perception of the car?  While as purists we might think that there is no difference between the number of forfeits at 14 weights vs having potentially fewer of them and more JV with fewer weights. We also aren't the people in charge of the decision making process related to budget cuts in a school district. Most of us would coach 1 kid if that was all we had, to give them the chance to wrestle. Unfortunately the bean counters don't really care about our passion.  Fewer forfeits might not change the actual number of wrestlers, but it can change the perception of observers.

LOL....keep moving the goal posts.

Maybe that's what it's doing. But then again, wasn't going to 14 weights doing the same? If not, please explain how it increased participation and opportunities for students in programs across the state. Myself and a few others have really been paying attention to the numbers for the past 20 years, and moving to 14 weights has in no way helped increase numbers and perhaps ONLY based on perception by those in charge of budget cuts, has been the nail in the coffin for far too many programs. If the perception is that something is failing when maybe it isn't, then change the perception of those who think it is. 

[neutral]

Dual format or individual format ... participation is the goal of HS sports.

Until/unless we can find unworthy participants in the state championship tournaments ... I fail to see a cause to retract. Anybody want to name one?

If we are providing both valid champions and participation ... I'd we're doing a decent job of balancing the two.

The only opportunity for improvement is through increased participation - which, unfortunately (as always), requires the constant efforts of coaches (especially), team leaders, parents and even other coaches (encouraging their athletes to "round" their skills.  Coaches need to do their share of the diggin' (for sure) - but the kids need to do more "scouting" and recruiting. Once the team has built a reputation within the school ... more kids will want to be a part of it. And - more younger siblings of those new wrestlers may investigate youth wrestling (this is where parents could be of influence (to other parents. This is how I believe things work in successful programs.

participation ... participation ... participation --- recruit ... recruit ... recruit.  It's tireless effort - but it but it gets a bit more self-fulfilling as it goes along.  Ask any coach who has built a program. It's not about who finds the most kids who want to be state champions ... it's about finding kids who want to be part of something.

[Handles II]

I agree, participation is the key.  We are at about 50% of our participation numbers from the early 90's in this state. It IS more work recruiting and more importantly RETAINING kids in our sport than it once was. I don't think any wrestling coach that has coached through a couple decades would disagree. Lots of reasons for that of course. Some the wrestling community can/should help control, some we can't.   
It still boils down to the participation at any given H.S. (or M.S) is based on the $$ available to fund extracurriculars and the participation or perception of participation/value of that sport to the district by those who control the decisions. The success at high school X to get a state champion or field a full team doesn't hold water for school Y's school board or admin, and even team Y getting a state champ doesn't do much if the team can't win a dual meet in their gym.
If you have 7 studs who can pin every opponent from team X, but 7 forfeits (14 weights), by score, you can only tie. That's what is seen in the local papers and in your gym, by people who make decisions. If you have 7 studs and 5 forfeits (12 weights) you can win outright in a home dual. Same number of kids. Different outcome. Different news article. Different perception.
14 weights has created a points imbalance that smaller teams simply can't often overcome, and we've lost a number of teams because of it, or the perception it brings.  All the data from the past 6 years shows that about 75% of our teams can't fill 14 weights on a regular basis (and just "filling" a weight class isn't very beneficial to said wrestler). If recruiting was what needed to happen to flip that to only 25%, it would have already happened. I'm certain that well over 75% of our coaches and programs recruit as often and in as many ways as they can. I know coaches borrow ideas from other coaches all the time. I know coaches listen to their wrestlers about new ways to entice kids into their wrestling room. Things have changed, our participation numbers have not increased since going to 14 weights, and we have lost programs. So why do we insist on keeping them? If changing weight class numbers could change outcomes and negative perceptions, then let's do it already.

[padre]

At the end of the day I don't think forfeits have anything to do with growing the sport.  A few on here care and find it embarrassing to wrestle in duals with tons of forfeits but the vast majority of kids could care less.  Those that you can  keep Out for the sport we just need to focus on.

We wrestled Coleman a couple nights ago and maybe 2 kids on our team knew about their history, and one was my son.  So they aren't thinking about how do we catch up to them.

As MNBadger wrote our main way to help participation would be to lower our expectations at practice.  That's just not going to happen.  So although every day I focus on creating more kids for my district I don't see numbers changing overall.  Half or more of the coaches in my conference would love to have their numbers increase but do absolutely nothing to make it happen...so I'm not holding my breathe.

[MNbadger]

I will respectfully posit that our obsession with duals is the issue.  I have said it before and The Pope does a better job than I doing so.
The times two times throughout my career that our district cut wrestling we had great numbers so that is not why cuts are made...... at least not in my experience in my district.  If duals were put on the back burner, the things you are frustrated with go away. 
As I said before, I would prefer to get out of our conference schedule.  Then I could schedule a few single duals with like competition and wrestle in individual tournaments on Saturdays.  I believe firmly this would result in more numbers as we could get out of late week (SCHOOL) nights tris and quads, leaving us to compete whether we have 3 or 30 wrestlers.

I agree, participation is the key.  We are at about 50% of our participation numbers from the early 90's in this state. It IS more work recruiting and more importantly RETAINING kids in our sport than it once was. I don't think any wrestling coach that has coached through a couple decades would disagree. Lots of reasons for that of course. Some the wrestling community can/should help control, some we can't.   
It still boils down to the participation at any given H.S. (or M.S) is based on the $$ available to fund extracurriculars and the participation or perception of participation/value of that sport to the district by those who control the decisions. The success at high school X to get a state champion or field a full team doesn't hold water for school Y's school board or admin, and even team Y getting a state champ doesn't do much if the team can't win a dual meet in their gym.
If you have 7 studs who can pin every opponent from team X, but 7 forfeits (14 weights), by score, you can only tie. That's what is seen in the local papers and in your gym, by people who make decisions. If you have 7 studs and 5 forfeits (12 weights) you can win outright in a home dual. Same number of kids. Different outcome. Different news article. Different perception.
14 weights has created a points imbalance that smaller teams simply can't often overcome, and we've lost a number of teams because of it, or the perception it brings.  All the data from the past 6 years shows that about 75% of our teams can't fill 14 weights on a regular basis (and just "filling" a weight class isn't very beneficial to said wrestler). If recruiting was what needed to happen to flip that to only 25%, it would have already happened. I'm certain that well over 75% of our coaches and programs recruit as often and in as many ways as they can. I know coaches borrow ideas from other coaches all the time. I know coaches listen to their wrestlers about new ways to entice kids into their wrestling room. Things have changed, our participation numbers have not increased since going to 14 weights, and we have lost programs. So why do we insist on keeping them? If changing weight class numbers could change outcomes and negative perceptions, then let's do it already.

[MNbadger]

Padre:  From your previous post....." Half or more of the coaches in my conference would love to have their numbers increase but do absolutely nothing to make it happen...so I'm not holding my breathe."
Do you really think this is so?  I have worked at recruiting and coaching since I was 18 years old.  I even coached youth when competing in college.  Some years it has been good and other years not.  I have busted my hump forever.  What I found was that I was a heckuva coach when I had good wrestlers and athletes and not so good when I did not(this is from the outside looking in of course).  Sometimes it just won't work.  Some will say; "if you can do it in Somewhereville you can do it anywhere".  I disagree.  Sometimes there just is not enough material in Anywhere.   
Let's say you own a herd of Herefords.  You could milk them three times a day for a lifetime and you'll never, ever be a successful dairyman.  Could you get them to produce more over time, sure but it will never be like a herd of Holsteins or another breed more suited to dairying.  Some of us coach Herefords.  All the wishing, work, and sweat can't change this.  It does not mean we give up but reality is what it is.
My point Padre is I hope you'd be careful when thinking/assuming/claiming the coaches you refer to are not working hard or extracting all they can from their "herd".

[padre]

Padre:  From your previous post....." Half or more of the coaches in my conference would love to have their numbers increase but do absolutely nothing to make it happen...so I'm not holding my breathe."
Do you really think this is so?  I have worked at recruiting and coaching since I was 18 years old.  I even coached youth when competing in college.  Some years it has been good and other years not.  I have busted my hump forever.  What I found was that I was a heckuva coach when I had good wrestlers and athletes and not so good when I did not(this is from the outside looking in of course).  Sometimes it just won't work.  Some will say; "if you can do it in Somewhereville you can do it anywhere".  I disagree.  Sometimes there just is not enough material in Anywhere.   
Let's say you own a herd of Herefords.  You could milk them three times a day for a lifetime and you'll never, ever be a successful dairyman.  Could you get them to produce more over time, sure but it will never be like a herd of Holsteins or another breed more suited to dairying.  Some of us coach Herefords.  All the wishing, work, and sweat can't change this.  It does not mean we give up but reality is what it is.
My point Padre is I hope you'd be careful when thinking/assuming/claiming the coaches you refer to are not working hard or extracting all they can from their "herd".

I don't speak non truths.  Generally half or more of my conference barely knows who's coaching from year to year and have no youth wrestling program and basically non existent junior high programs.  They continue to host duals with 2-4 wrestlers instead of just going to tournaments.  Those duals hurt wrestling and there may be a few cases where a coach is working his tail off and has 2-5 wrestlers on their team but I just don't see it happening often.

I have a district that's got two junior highs in it...both are equal size.  I get 95 percent of my wrestlers from one of the junior highs no matter how hard I recruit at the other school for the last 24 years.  So my high school has about 300 kids..say half are boys so that leaves me with 150.  Now half of those are from the town that generates basically no wrestlers.  So my team every year has to be from those 75 kids...not easy to even get 20 kids even though the school has enjoyed considerable success the last decade plus.  So yes I feel your pain.

My point is nothing is going to change overall dramatically no matter what we do.  It's dependent on each district coach on how things go for them.  Same as every other sport.

[firemanscarry]

As I read through this thread, I enjoy the wonderful metaphors that are coming out of it, and see lots of people who love the sport racking their brains to solve the problem.

But I think I need to put another metaphor out there: Are we trying to fix a flat tire by arguing about the best brand of wiper blades?

In other words, does the decline in wrestling participation numbers have anything at all to do with the number of weights? I don't know if it does. Most HS sports have seen a decline in numbers--and it's not because the kids are all playing club sports. Kids are choosing to do different things (or nothing at all) with their time. Most of the kids who are not out for wrestling couldn't even begin to tell you how many weight classes there are. It's not playing into their decision when making up their mind about participation. Their decision is mostly based on whether they want to participate in team sports or school activities at all. In many schools it is harder nowadays to get kids out for the play or forensics or student government or any other activity.

But I just can't imagine this conversation happening.

"Going out for wrestling this year, son?"

"Naw, Dad. Too many weights."

[padre]

As I read through this thread, I enjoy the wonderful metaphors that are coming out of it, and see lots of people who love the sport racking their brains to solve the problem.

But I think I need to put another metaphor out there: Are we trying to fix a flat tire by arguing about the best brand of wiper blades?

In other words, does the decline in wrestling participation numbers have anything at all to do with the number of weights? I don't know if it does. Most HS sports have seen a decline in numbers--and it's not because the kids are all playing club sports. Kids are choosing to do different things (or nothing at all) with their time. Most of the kids who are not out for wrestling couldn't even begin to tell you how many weight classes there are. It's not playing into their decision when making up their mind about participation. Their decision is mostly based on whether they want to participate in team sports or school activities at all. In many schools it is harder nowadays to get kids out for the play or forensics or student government or any other activity.

But I just can't imagine this conversation happening.

"Going out for wrestling this year, son?"

"Naw, Dad. Too many weights."

Agreed.  The number of weight classes has nothing to do with participation.  Basically few kids overall are not going to care more than maybe getting a buddy to try it.  Only has to do with us coaches and fans that want there to be less forfeits.  Unfortunately
the same people many times arguing about forfeits are the same ones that say JV kids shouldn't be on varsity.  Well...I bet 5-10 percent of the kids that do go out are JV type kids that only came out because a coach talked them into it to field a spot in the lineup.  I know I get a couple every year I get try it based on that.

[DocWrestling]

The number of weight classes do matter to administrators and that affects participation when programs are lost or co-ops created.  It also affects how many coaches they will fund.  If you can't even fill your varsity team why would I worry about a JV coach?

We have lost some teams but we have lost a ton of funding for coaches.

Perception of administrators does matter.  Especially when they start underfunding scheduling.  When an entire conference of AD"s get together to discuss wrestling it does not focus on how can we help participation.  It is all about how can we decease costs.

[MNbadger]

I will respectfully tell you that is not how the cutting of athletics happens around here.  My district cut all ms activities with no regard to participation numbers.  As I said in a previous post, both times we were cut, our numbers were pretty good.

The number of weight classes do matter to administrators and that affects participation when programs are lost or co-ops created.  It also affects how many coaches they will fund.  If you can't even fill your varsity team why would I worry about a JV coach?

We have lost some teams but we have lost a ton of funding for coaches.

Perception of administrators does matter.  Especially when they start underfunding scheduling.  When an entire conference of AD"s get together to discuss wrestling it does not focus on how can we help participation.  It is all about how can we decease costs.

[MNbadger]

I was not accusing you of lying.  I just think spmetopimes we all make assumptions about things in life.  If you see this for real, I believe you.  I will say and your post supports it that sometimes there is nothing you can do.  You are getting little to no production from. One of your ms/JV.  Should that coach subdue athletes at gun point, forcing them into the wrestling room?. I can tell you I've done everything and anything short of that through the years. 
I illustrated how participation in my district is pathetic in all sports.   As I said, there was a time where we dressed 110 players in football in 10th-12th grade(2600 students 10-12 at that time).  This past season we finished with  under 50 (2400 9-12).s

Padre:  From your previous post....." Half or more of the coaches in my conference would love to have their numbers increase but do absolutely nothing to make it happen...so I'm not holding my breathe."
Do you really think this is so?  I have worked at recruiting and coaching since I was 18 years old.  I even coached youth when competing in college.  Some years it has been good and other years not.  I have busted my hump forever.  What I found was that I was a heckuva coach when I had good wrestlers and athletes and not so good when I did not(this is from the outside looking in of course).  Sometimes it just won't work.  Some will say; "if you can do it in Somewhereville you can do it anywhere".  I disagree.  Sometimes there just is not enough material in Anywhere.   
Let's say you own a herd of Herefords.  You could milk them three times a day for a lifetime and you'll never, ever be a successful dairyman.  Could you get them to produce more over time, sure but it will never be like a herd of Holsteins or another breed more suited to dairying.  Some of us coach Herefords.  All the wishing, work, and sweat can't change this.  It does not mean we give up but reality is what it is.
My point Padre is I hope you'd be careful when thinking/assuming/claiming the coaches you refer to are not working hard or extracting all they can from their "herd".

I don't speak non truths.  Generally half or more of my conference barely knows who's coaching from year to year and have no youth wrestling program and basically non existent junior high programs.  They continue to host duals with 2-4 wrestlers instead of just going to tournaments.  Those duals hurt wrestling and there may be a few cases where a coach is working his tail off and has 2-5 wrestlers on their team but I just don't see it happening often.

I have a district that's got two junior highs in it...both are equal size.  I get 95 percent of my wrestlers from one of the junior highs no matter how hard I recruit at the other school for the last 24 years.  So my high school has about 300 kids..say half are boys so that leaves me with 150.  Now half of those are from the town that generates basically no wrestlers.  So my team every year has to be from those 75 kids...not easy to even get 20 kids even though the school has enjoyed considerable success the last decade plus.  So yes I feel your pain.

My point is nothing is going to change overall dramatically no matter what we do.  It's dependent on each district coach on how things go for them.  Same as every other sport.