Filling Weight Classes-The 2021-22 Data

[NoFooForU]

If the stated average is 8.6 wrestlers per team, then for every team that had a full line-up (14 wrestlers) there would be a team that has only 3 wrestlers in the line-up.  That's just not making sense.  Where are the teams that only have 3 kids?  Because I regularly see teams with 13 or 14 kids in the line-up. 

Instead of reducing weight classes across the entire state, have a new division for programs that can't field full teams.  The 8-man football example is a great one.  WIAA didn't make every school in the state play 8-man, only offered it as a solution for those that couldn't get full teams.  Create an 8 weight class division and let those schools that can't get kids compete there for duals.

It's in the math. If there are X number of teams participating in tournaments, then multiply that number by 14 weights. That equals the numbers of wrestlers there would or could be if every weight was filled by every team, ie 100%.   However, when there are teams without a wrestler at a weight, that lowers the percentage. In this case the percentage of possible wrestlers vs actual wrestlers was 62%.  62% of 14 weight classes = 8.6. Thus across each weight class and each team we would get 8.6 wrestlers per team on average.  As a point of emphasis, in looking at each tournament, there wasn't even one weight class where each spot was filled completely, ie 10 schools having 10 160lbers.  In every tournament, every weight, there were empty spots.

I understand averages.  You don't have to teach me 6th grade math. 

My point is that if this calculated average is 8.6, and I know there are many teams with full line-ups, then that would mean there are teams with less than 8 wrestlers.  And, I don't buy it. The OP logic doesn't pass the sniff test.

[asdf]

A similar document was created based on the last 6 years of Regional data by the WWCA.  I'd suggest logging onto their website, checking out their September notes, and finding the link.  The data is very clear as it relates to participation at the end of the year at Regionals.

Or you can go directly to the document here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1t9tVNDg4QQfsaySxJ9aqNQfCFBTPb2KKJ7gU5EaYCqE/edit?usp=sharing

Yes, this is excellent data, and excellent of you to share the link! Hopefully the readers (parents) and WWCA members will be reading it.  When only 25% +/- of the teams in the state can field a full team, there is a problem with the size of the team.

OR maybe coaches, AD's, and parents will realize the problem lies with them not forfeits and sizes of teams.  Believe it was Willie Saylor that stated those crying that forfeits are the reason for reduced #'s are just trying to make themselves feel better by winning a worthless dual in January.  He is 100% correct. 

Plenty of schools reload every year.  Plenty of schools for decades have barely fielded a team.  Our conference has a team that has been a perennial powerhouse have less then 15 kids out this year suddenly.  Other team has over 50, yet had 5-6 forfeits on varsity 3 years ago.  Forfeits have nothing to do with all these.  In my opinion, it is coaching/administration. 

Those that believe in reducing weight classes are advocating for a lazy solution to a multi-factoral problem.  Many of those advocating admit in past blogs they couldn't field a full team themselves, never had a 106#er, on and on.

Be careful for unintended consequences of changes.  Wrestling could go the way of many other HS sports and have kids opting out of HS seasons for club/AAU. 

[neutral]

So tired of this discussion (now & in the past.

H.S. wrestling is about both competition & opportunity to participate. I don't see why anybody would want to limit either.

Who cares if there are more forfeits at some weight classes!? ... as long as it's not indicative of lack of participation in the sport as a whole.

What's the goal?: ... starting tournaments later? ... getting out earlier? ... trying to gain line-up equality for dual result purposes? None of these outrank increasing opportunity to participate.

When you get to the 4-8 wrestlers of any tournament (16-32 of the state tournament) - you can't tell me that the quality of wrestling isn't relatively equal - and if it's not ... it's not necessarily at the weights that it's likely you're targeting.

Likewise - I doubt that results due to roster holes has played a part in any "state tourney" level duals ... or even any decent conference dual championships.

Bottom line - let who wants to wrestle ... wrestle - if weight classes become non-competitive (rather than numbers are unbalanced) ... then we have something to talk about.

[MNbadger]

Pretty well-put.

So tired of this discussion (now & in the past.

H.S. wrestling is about both competition & opportunity to participate. I don't see why anybody would want to limit either.

Who cares if there are more forfeits at some weight classes!? ... as long as it's not indicative of lack of participation in the sport as a whole.

What's the goal?: ... starting tournaments later? ... getting out earlier? ... trying to gain line-up equality for dual result purposes? None of these outrank increasing opportunity to participate.

When you get to the 4-8 wrestlers of any tournament (16-32 of the state tournament) - you can't tell me that the quality of wrestling isn't relatively equal - and if it's not ... it's not necessarily at the weights that it's likely you're targeting.

Likewise - I doubt that results due to roster holes has played a part in any "state tourney" level duals ... or even any decent conference dual championships.

Bottom line - let who wants to wrestle ... wrestle - if weight classes become non-competitive (rather than numbers are unbalanced) ... then we have something to talk about.

[Ghetto]

I, for one, am stunned we aren't filling the weights.

I wish we would have had data going back to 2005 so we could have started doing something about it long ago.

A dual win in January is useless. Huh. Good to know.

[neutral]

"A dual win in January is useless. Huh. Good to know." (Ghetto) ... didn't say that.  Perhaps a more appropriate interpretation would be that no duel of consequence (where there is a higher level of competition & the result has significance beyond that event) in January (or anytime of the season) is likely decided by FFs due to roster holes.

[NoFooForU]

No team in the 2021 Devil Duals had 8.6 kids in the line up.  Looks like the fewest was 11 (Random Lake).

Still no one questions the data that is presented.

[TomM]

I wish we would have had data going back to 2005 so we could have started doing something about it long ago.

We were not filling the weights as far back as 1995 or further.

[DocWrestling]

The City of Green Bay has 4 high schools.  All used to have wrestling teams that competed well in the distant past.

Now they have 2 teams; Green Bay Preble and then the other 3 co=op together.

This weekend at the Battle on the Bay those 4 high schools had 10 varsity wrestlers total.  Green Bay Preble- 7 wrestlers, Co-op- 3 wrestlers.

Now you take the surrounding schools in suburbs of Green Bay

Bay Port- 19 (They were allowed to enter extra wrestlers)
West De Pere- 10
Ashwaubenon- 9
De Pere - 9

8 Public High Schools in Green Bay proper.  52 weight classes filled for an average of 6.5 wrestlers per high school (D1 high schools)

If you look at numbers in Green Bay, Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, La Crosse, etc. and then look at results like at the Devils Duals, it sure seems to be trending that wrestling is hurting more in the bigger cities with D1 schools than in some of the smaller communities.

I predict more co-ops in the future and then you are really losing opportunities.  Unfortunately wrestling is evolving into an individual sport and will be more like track and swimming.  No reason to reduce weight classes if it is an individual sport.

[imwi]

No team in the 2021 Devil Duals had 8.6 kids in the line up.  Looks like the fewest was 11 (Random Lake).

Still no one questions the data that is presented.

Devil's advocate here, if you had 8.6 kids on your team, would you enter a Dual Tournament or would you concentrate on individual tournaments.  I think using data from a dual tournament may be a bit skewed

[npope]

I am disappointed in myself to be drawn into this conversation, but....

The problem with forfeits manifests itself only because we insist on promoting a dual format - the issue would largely disappear if we moved to more individualistic format, i.e., tournament based format. Even better if it were a tournament format with schools allowed to enter more than one competitor at each weight (so good kids don't have to sit on the sidelines just because there is another good kid from their respective school). The problem manifests itself only because we (as part of our American mentality) insist on mano-a-mano type competitions. If we could simply try embrace the "jamboree" concept for our sport and just promote the involvement of kids, instead of determining which school is better than another, this problem would resolve itself.

If kids are truly number one, the answer is simple.

[wrastle63]

The City of Green Bay has 4 high schools.  All used to have wrestling teams that competed well in the distant past.

Now they have 2 teams; Green Bay Preble and then the other 3 co=op together.

This weekend at the Battle on the Bay those 4 high schools had 10 varsity wrestlers total.  Green Bay Preble- 7 wrestlers, Co-op- 3 wrestlers.

Now you take the surrounding schools in suburbs of Green Bay

Bay Port- 19 (They were allowed to enter extra wrestlers)
West De Pere- 10
Ashwaubenon- 9
De Pere - 9

8 Public High Schools in Green Bay proper.  52 weight classes filled for an average of 6.5 wrestlers per high school (D1 high schools)

If you look at numbers in Green Bay, Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, La Crosse, etc. and then look at results like at the Devils Duals, it sure seems to be trending that wrestling is hurting more in the bigger cities with D1 schools than in some of the smaller communities.

I predict more co-ops in the future and then you are really losing opportunities.  Unfortunately wrestling is evolving into an individual sport and will be more like track and swimming.  No reason to reduce weight classes if it is an individual sport.

Be ready for Handles attack of your sport IQ. Lol

[thequad]

I like npop's idea.

[MNbadger]

THIS.

I am disappointed in myself to be drawn into this conversation, but....

The problem with forfeits manifests itself only because we insist on promoting a dual format - the issue would largely disappear if we moved to more individualistic format, i.e., tournament based format. Even better if it were a tournament format with schools allowed to enter more than one competitor at each weight (so good kids don't have to sit on the sidelines just because there is another good kid from their respective school). The problem manifests itself only because we (as part of our American mentality) insist on mano-a-mano type competitions. If we could simply try embrace the "jamboree" concept for our sport and just promote the involvement of kids, instead of determining which school is better than another, this problem would resolve itself.

If kids are truly number one, the answer is simple.

[MNbadger]

I teach and coach in a large metro/suburban district.  When I started in the late eighties my high school dressed 110 football players for each game.  This was only 10th-12th grade.  Each of the junior highs had 50 ninth graders in the respective teams.(we are now a 9-12 school). This past season we finished with less than FIFTY players 9-12.  We have dropped middle school sports but three years ago before we did so, the middle school I was at could not get enough girls out to field a middle school basketball team.
Participation is down in everything in many areas.
I understand that some might see this as a reason for retraction.  I do not.  I agree with The Pope.
I have had years where we were at the top and years where we forfeited four and five weights.  I have never seen the positives some claim for retraction.  I say this being in the most dual obsessed state there is. 
Given my druthers I would opt to get out of our conference all together.  I would schedule a single dual once a week with teams of our ilk and participate in individual tournaments each Saturday.  I schedule according to my team needs now as well.
It is a mistake to retract and it has been a mistake to raise the starting weight as we have done repeatedly over time.