Filling Weight Classes-The 2021-22 Data

[DocWrestling]

I have not been a part of a team getting cut but I can tell you that AD's are constantly talking about co-ops in low participation sports.

[Numbers]

If you hired an independent data person to give a number of weight classes recommendation, there is a chance they would propose 10 weights in Wisconsin.  These unfilled weights stats are after the large amount of coops Wisconsin already has.

The national body says the options are 12, 13, or 14.  Wisconsin should move to 12 weights.

For the situations where above average varsity wrestlers are blocked, there will still be tournaments that allow second entries at a weight class.  West Allis this weekend is one.

[npope]

I have found this thread to be interesting, filled with diverse perspectives, insightful and perhaps most interesting - civil. And let me say up front, I love a good dual meet - that's the best thing about our sport. That said...I hate a bad dual meet - it's a painful experience.

The club system employed in much of the rest of the world disassociates itself from affiliation with the national education system, as it does with many of its sports programs. It is a different model from the US, but I am wondering if anyone on here can speak to it with some experience regarding the drop in participation numbers we are seeing in the US. I am given to the impression that European wrestling, for example, operates on a non-school affiliated club system and while duals between clubs do indeed take place on occasion, they are not the more common competition model - I think weekend tournaments are the norm (please correct me if I am incorrect on my understanding).

If however, I am correct in my competition format assumption, then how is it working for them in terms of developing and promoting participation in broader participation among their youth and development programs. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the inability of schools to put a (relatively) full line-up together only becomes obvious when we try to put on duals and keep team scores. I think we would all agree that that is a "bad look" and contributes to the dismissal of the sport as being viable and concurrently contributes to open discussion as to the lack of value the sport presents to our youth. Do boxing training gyms hold "dual meets"? And my introduction of boxing here is not without a point to be made. In the early 1900s boxing, along with other sports were being introduced to our nation's school system. Boxing came and went for at least a couple of reasons that are shared with the sport of wrestling from the uninitiated person's perspective. Wrestling as part of the educational system could easily experience the same fate if not deftly managed...and I think allowing wrestling to be portrayed as an unpopular (low participation numbers), pugilistic experience is helping to push wrestling to the archives of the "sports that once existed." The rising popularity of sports like MMA is helping to redefine wrestling as we know it and I dare say we will never see two high school MMA teams go at it for obvious reasons.

So, polish up the marketing of the sport; keep it civil; have obvious/enforceable rules, etc.

[Army Ant]

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

[neutral]

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

It doesn't ... it provides opportunities to wrestle. Opportunities to wrestle aid retention.

Again - if you can provide the name of any unworthy state champions, at any weight class(es), with any consistency, in any division ... then we have a place to start talking about reducing weight classes.

[neutral]

As I said before, I would prefer to get out of our conference schedule.  Then I could schedule a few single duals with like competition and wrestle in individual tournaments on Saturdays. 

[/quote]

I agree with almost everything you post on this subject ... except this.  For some teams ... scheduling would be a nightmare - and possibly unfilled schedules and possibly/likely the dissolution of teams.

[Numbers]

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

It doesn't ... it provides opportunities to wrestle. Opportunities to wrestle aid retention.

Again - if you can provide the name of any unworthy state champions, at any weight class(es), with any consistency, in any division ... then we have a place to start talking about reducing weight classes.

This point does not apply.  It would be like PA should have at least 20 weight classes because many state champs could still wrestle D1. 

[Army Ant]

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

It doesn't ... it provides opportunities to wrestle. Opportunities to wrestle aid retention.

Again - if you can provide the name of any unworthy state champions, at any weight class(es), with any consistency, in any division ... then we have a place to start talking about reducing weight classes.

More opportunities for receive wins by forfeit I would say.

I miss the days when it was a big deal to be varsity or for an underclassmen to "start" on jv and there were enough jv wrestlers to actually keep a team score. It's all relative. Yes, more opportunities to wrestle varsity but everything has been watered down. And yes, I'd say many state champions are "less worthy" than if we had fewer weight classes. I'm not oing to say that any particular wrestler is "unworthy" but Id be much more excited if we had 12 state champions (more competitive matches) than the 42 we currently have . Not advocating to go that far but something in that direction at least.

[MNbadger]

Sorry, you are WAY off base here.  Wrestling gets better and better each here.  My dad used to tell me the state champs of his day would have been section winners at best in my day.
More weight classes makes for more participation.  Size differential is a big thing.  We all have or have had kids that have to "wrestle up".  It might be because their parents won't let them drop or they are "tweezers" who can't beat the wrestler at their weight.  They struggle.  The narrower weight jumps in high school make this better.  This is why you rarely see college wrestlers bump up.  There comes a point where in a match, the size differential tells no matter how good or talented the wrestler is who is wrestling up. 
As far as wishing for the "old days" for participation it has been mentioned the same is true in other sports. The truth is I don't think kids think about forfeits at all, at least not in regard to a match being a "joke" in any way.

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

It doesn't ... it provides opportunities to wrestle. Opportunities to wrestle aid retention.

Again - if you can provide the name of any unworthy state champions, at any weight class(es), with any consistency, in any division ... then we have a place to start talking about reducing weight classes.

More opportunities for receive wins by forfeit I would say.

I miss the days when it was a big deal to be varsity or for an underclassmen to "start" on jv and there were enough jv wrestlers to actually keep a team score. It's all relative. Yes, more opportunities to wrestle varsity but everything has been watered down. And yes, I'd say many state champions are "less worthy" than if we had fewer weight classes. I'm not oing to say that any particular wrestler is "unworthy" but Id be much more excited if we had 12 state champions (more competitive matches) than the 42 we currently have . Not advocating to go that far but something in that direction at least.

[MNbadger]

You imagine some kind of Armageddon in this scenario.  This idea is simply silly.  I and others schedule lots of matches in addition to the conference schedule.  There is no logical reason to think any team would dissolve because of this.   

As I said before, I would prefer to get out of our conference schedule.  Then I could schedule a few single duals with like competition and wrestle in individual tournaments on Saturdays. 

I agree with almost everything you post on this subject ... except this.  For some teams ... scheduling would be a nightmare - and possibly unfilled schedules and possibly/likely the dissolution of teams.
[/quote]

[Army Ant]

Sorry, you are WAY off base here.  Wrestling gets better and better each here.  My dad used to tell me the state champs of his day would have been section winners at best in my day.
More weight classes makes for more participation.  Size differential is a big thing.  We all have or have had kids that have to "wrestle up".  It might be because their parents won't let them drop or they are "tweezers" who can't beat the wrestler at their weight.  They struggle.  The narrower weight jumps in high school make this better.  This is why you rarely see college wrestlers bump up.  There comes a point where in a match, the size differential tells no matter how good or talented the wrestler is who is wrestling up. 
As far as wishing for the "old days" for participation it has been mentioned the same is true in other sports. The truth is I don't think kids think about forfeits at all, at least not in regard to a match being a "joke" in any way.

I don't see how more weight classes encourages more participation. I think a lot of kids look at all the forfeits in the average dual meet and see the sport as more of a joke. School's getting a lot of wins just by inserting live bodies into whatever classes the can. It's an embarrassing aspect of the sport (even though the sport is great overall).

It doesn't ... it provides opportunities to wrestle. Opportunities to wrestle aid retention.

Again - if you can provide the name of any unworthy state champions, at any weight class(es), with any consistency, in any division ... then we have a place to start talking about reducing weight classes.

More opportunities for receive wins by forfeit I would say.

I miss the days when it was a big deal to be varsity or for an underclassmen to "start" on jv and there were enough jv wrestlers to actually keep a team score. It's all relative. Yes, more opportunities to wrestle varsity but everything has been watered down. And yes, I'd say many state champions are "less worthy" than if we had fewer weight classes. I'm not oing to say that any particular wrestler is "unworthy" but Id be much more excited if we had 12 state champions (more competitive matches) than the 42 we currently have . Not advocating to go that far but something in that direction at least.

Data indicates otherwise since participation has dropped as we've added weight classes.

The top wrestlers are better than the top wrestlers a few decades ago. More training opportunities and more kids training year round. In fact, I never even heard of any of these academies back in the 80s. It isn't because of all these extra forfeits and byes.

The average team a few decades ago (imo) was much better though than the average team nowadays. Not just because of forfeits but also many more inexperienced kids and underclassmen in varsity lineups today. Most teams today don't even have any of these elite wrestlers anyway.

[MNbadger]

You are misreading the data.  Wrestling has been the fifth most popular sport for high school males for all of my life(I am an old fellow).  Participation is down in many if not most sports.  I iterated this very thing in previous posts. 
The thing is with wrestling it is based on weight.  We need to keep these opportunities for those individuals.  The key here is too stop the obsession and insistence that duals are the primary format.

[Army Ant]

Ok. None of us know for sure how the wt classes are impacting participation. Let's get that straight. I'll admit for myself at least that this is all just my opinion.

Re: tournaments, even these have been impacted. Very few 8- team tournaments w traditional brackets anymore. You go to 8-team conference and regional tournaments and often see weight classes w just a few kids. We've probably all seen 1 kid in a weight class in recent years at a conference or regional tournament.

[MNbadger]

I am not being a smart Alec here.....so what?
Small brackets happen in every single club wrestling tournament there is.....so what?
Some tournaments are tougher than others too....so what?

[DocWrestling]

No change in any number of weight classes reduces opportunities unless you think wrestling JV is not an opportunity.  The only way that opportunities are cut are when a team is cut or a co-op is created.  In another viewpoint I could say though that more weight classes decreases opportunities.  How many time does it happen where one team has a forfeit at one weight class and the other team forfeits the next weight class.  Both wrestlers lost an opportunity to wrestle that might have been a match with fewer weight classes.

Coaches must know that wrestling JV is still an opportunity to wrestle.  Look at the Fond du Lac Invitational from yesterday and look at the varsity roster numbers.  This is a rare tournament that has both a varsity and JV division in the same gym at the same team.  This means coaches can choose which division to enter their wrestlers.  Many teams could "fill" more varsity weight classes but chose to put their wrestlers in the JV division because that is what was better for them.

Which one offers more "opportunities"? Have a 14 weight class varsity dual and 6 exhibition matches or 10 weight class varsity and JV duals.