On Guillotine, varsity numbers...

[Ghetto]

Are there any states that have less then 14 weight classes? If so how has it helped or resolved them giving up points in there duals?

If there is no data that supports cutting weight classes is a solution to resolving forfeit points I would then vote for letting another state try it and use there kids as test rats. With out data proving this would resolve a points issue my vote would be to solve issues within our control.

I don't think so. I've looked on track wrestling.

I would love to have a lab rat state try it of course first. Wisconsin isn't as dire as other states in regards to wrestling. Alaska is one state I looked at the state tournament for, and basically if you have a pulse you make it to state. Kids with 3-10 records make it.

I think states are afraid to try something different because they lose their vote in the national federation. I don't understand why this really matters, but I think it does. We don't get a vote right now, so maybe we SHOULD be the test state? We seem to be in the position to do so? I do know that the WIAA will never go away from the federation weights. So if you are worried, don't be. It won't happen until the rest of the country figures it out.

The only data we would have would be to show that before we had 14 weights, we had more kids. But really that's not a fair study. We all know that there are other reasons besides the weight classes.

Since 2005, the number of teams filling 12 or less weights at regionals (all three divisions combined) has risen from 56.7% to 68.0%.

[CoachZ]

14 (106-285) : Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, N. Carolina, N. Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, S. Carolina, S. Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, W. Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

Michigan 14: 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285

New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont 15: 99, 106-285

Alaska, Idaho 15: 98, 106-285

Hawaii 15: 108, 114, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285, 500 (I'm guessing this is a somewhat unlimited weight class)

Montana 13: 103, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 205, 285

Hopefully I didn't miss any states.

[Ghetto]

I think the issue was in the .5 per day weight loss, yes. When we move to the %loss system I think we are back at the table.

[Troy Grindle]

Fourteen weight classes is probably to many.  Eleven I have always thought is probably the correct number as a whole for the entire state.  I get that some teams can fill a full lineup, but most teams cant.  I also get the argument that we would be eliminating varsity spots for kids, we would be for some teams.  Our team can currently fill a full varsity lineup with solid kids and we also have a good core j.v. team.  But it always wasn't like this for us.  It was a lot of hard work with a lot of dedicated individuals to get it to that point.  I don't think most communities have that many people willing to put in the time to get it to that point. 

I fully believe there should be lighter weight classes but varsity weight classes should be situated towards upperclassmen.  Not freshman and sophomores.  You typically don't see juniors and seniors until the 120lb weight class.  Yes there are the exceptions but for the most part 106 and 113 are for freshman and sophomores.

I also have never understood the mind set "what about the stud 85lber in eighth grade that only weighs 100lbs his freshman year.  They would probably quit if they can't wrestle varsity if you don't have 106 and 113".  I highly don't they would quit wrestling if they are really good at it and have to wrestle j.v. for a year or two because they can't beat out the junior or senior 120lber.  They would just wrestle j.v. just like the stud freshman 160lber would can't beat out the junior or senior to make varsity.  I saw this when we have a pile of great lighter weight wrestlers.  It benefits our team to have the lighter weights.  I wish we still had 98lbs right now!  But as a whole for all of the state teams the lightest weights are not good.  It is a have or a have not incoming club wrestlers from 8th grade.  There are very few in betweens for the lighter weights.

Do you think the varsity football coach is concerned that the stud 8th grade tailback is going to quit football because he can't play varsity football his freshman year because he is only 5'9" 150lbs?  Or do you think he is saying a couple of years on freshman and j.v. and that kid is going to be a player for us.  That 5'9" 150lb freshman would get hammered on the varsity football field.

Here are my weight classes,

116, 124, 132, 140, 148, 157, 166, 177, 188, 210, 285

No growth allowance, not 1lb for extra days of wrestling, nothing.  116 is 116 the first dual of the year to the last day of state.  It would be primarily only upperclassmen at these weights.  I think fewer kids would open enroll because generally the kids that open enroll are going to the best teams in the state and they might not want to wait to crack the lineup.  The duals would be a lot tighter of scores and the competition would be really tough for the varsity spots.  Yes some good kids would quit but I don't think many.  I would also make it 4 divisions in wrestling.

[aarons23]

11?   Why dont we just jump right to 1.....sorry but thats a rediculous number. Making the lowest weight 116 is also rediculous....  wrestling is the one sport built for all sizes and you want to punish the little guy?  Which 106 pounders last year at the state tournament didnt deserve to be there?  Of course you will say they all deserved it but your logic doesnt support that.  Not sure I understand the cut to 11 weight classes but go to 4 divisions???

You talk about how your school struggled to fill weight classes but through hard work and commitment you guys got the ship right......do not believe other schools can do the hard work?  Maybe instead of promoting cutting weight classes, promote the process your school used to grow your program.  What school are you at?

[Troy Grindle]

Aaron I coach at Waunakee.  I saw the process it took at Waunakee over the last 4 years that I have been involved at Waunakee and the 5 years before that I was coaching at another conference school before we moved to Waunakee.  It has taken no less than 30 incredibly motivated and selfless individuals to build up the youth program, start fund raisers, run multiple youth tournaments, organize camps, have spring and summer wrestling, coach at the state team level, get kids to club practice, take kids to summer camps, highly promote freestyle and Greco.  I look at where we are versus 5 years ago and it is a big difference.  But it took a lot of people to get it there.  I don't think most communities have that many people that are willing to help or the resources to get it done.  I would look like to hope so but being realistic I don't think so.

I think 11 as a whole for the state is best.  Not for our team, we are good with 14 and could run out more varsity caliber kids this year.  Heck stoughton could probably run out another 10 varsity caliber kids on their team!  

Yes I would say every state qualifier at 106 deserved to be at state last year. You don't get to state by luck. It is hard and those young men should be very proud of what they accomplished.  What I am saying is that if you want to gear the sport towards upperclassmen then I would start at 116.  I am fine with the current weights, I just see which ones most teams are struggling to fill.

My thought with four divisions is that there is a large discrepancy in divisions one and three with enrollment from top to bottom.  I think it's really hard for the schools with the enrollments on the bottom end to compete.  None of the changes that I am talking about would benefit the team I coach, it would actually hurt us.  But I am looking at wrestling as a whole in the state and this is what I see.  I have been reading this forum for years and this topic is a very hot debate among the wrestling community.  You are either for a reduction or can't grasp how other people want to eliminate wrestling opportunities for kids.  It's similar to Clinton and Trump.  Almost everyone had a opinion on who was best and no matter what anyone said to you, you weren't going to change your mind.

[aarons23]

Couple of things Troy....106 isnt even the most ff weight class every year....couple years ago it was 145.  Your plan does absolutely nothing to increase participation and retain wrestlers....in fact reducing to 11 will most likely reduce participation and make our sport only for those who wrestle year around....at elite clubs....others will see the writing on the wall and find something else to do.  I also think your selling the wrestling community out when you dont believe they can replicate what you guys have done in Waunakee.   Great job by the way....please help other communities learn how you did it.  We have d3 schools (which have larger problems than d2 or1)making it work....so I'm positive the d2 and d1s can do it.  It does take the right people to work together....just because your a good coach doesnt mean your a good program builder.

[littleguy301]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

[aarons23]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders.  Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself.  The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs.  If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow. 

Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.

High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great. 

[padre]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders.  Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself.  The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs.  If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow. 

Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.

High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great. 

So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?

[aarons23]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders.  Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself.  The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs.  If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow. 

Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.

High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great. 

So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?

Thanks for asking....we will be posting an official statement about K.N.O.W. this week.  One thing we already announced was Wisconsin Red national dual team....its only one of aspects of K.N.O.W. (kids need opportunities wrestling).

[Jimmy]

Aaron's, you say high school isn't about wins and loses but I have reffed many duals of teams forfeiting back and forth or double forfeiting to create that one matchup that will win them the dual.competitve teams that have a chance at winning duals bring the team and community together and builds excitement and support.less weight classes will help create competitive teams in a dual setting.

[littleguy301]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders.  Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself.  The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs.  If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow. 

Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.

High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great. 

work closely, administration, coach, recruit, drop your kids off not sure what that means though I am sure your involved in many of the schools you are associated with.

We need good youth and middle to allow the high schools to grow, I totally agree. Though I will say go to the less populated schools and middle schools are dropping because of lack of funding. Sounds whinning but being honest.

never heard of K.N.O.W. glad you brought it up for discussions. Also using dual teams that are basically a couple of clubs putting something together isnt growing the entire state of wrestling.

Like I said, wrestling is different from areas/regions to others. It works in some areas, other it just plain doesnt.

I am glad that schools offer wrestling even though it is low numbers. It is great to give kids chances to compete. Though the proof is in the pudding when we are seeing that teams are filling out on an average of 10 out of 14 weights. I am sure the football team wouldnt get a chance to compete if they filled out only 75% of the positions. Same goes with the other sports.

[CoachZ]

I ask this question in an honest attempt to get an authentic a real answer.

What is stopping schools from scheduling duals with school of similar circumstances? Full teams should be scheduling duals with other full teams.
I understand conference play may be difficult, but if the WIAA would change there rule of triangular and quad's being counted as a tournament. You could work with teams with less then full rosters so we can get the painful duals out of the way in one or two evenings, and with a packed house. I understand Wrightstown just accomplished a great 5 team dual last Thursday. It sounds like it was very well ran and kids got in plenty of matches.
We have to appreciate coaches that are innovative and "Find" solutions.
I may be ignorant but it seems like a partial salution to a difficult issue.

The conference can be the issue. If you have a 8 team conference, you have to wrestle it and don't have the opportunity to schedule a non conference.  I dealt with this first hand this year. We had a very good and competitive non conference dual but had to drop it because we added a team to the conference. Normally you think hey a team was added, that's great. We'll not so much. The team that was added broke off of a existing co-op with 3 kids. They currently have 1 kid wrestling. So I had to drop a quality non conference dual for essentially one kid! It's a joke.

[aarons23]

aarons

what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?

I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.

I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.

So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.

Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders.  Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself.  The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs.  If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow. 

Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.

High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great. 

So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?

Thanks for asking....we will be posting an official statement about K.N.O.W. this week.  One thing we already announced was Wisconsin Red national dual team....its only one of aspects of K.N.O.W. (kids need opportunities wrestling).

OK...kind of thought that was what it was about...these traveling teams mostly help those that make decisions to spend 1,000s to go get a few tough matches.  They are the top tier kids and while its a generous notion its helping the top 1 percent....thats not where its needed in general to actually grow the sport IMO.

Actually you are would be wrong... first off KNOW was created for much more than the dual team....that is just one aspect.  But getting Wisconsin kids who normally dont get to compete at the national level, competing there is growing wrestling for the entire state.  Yes it started off with 2 clubs...but the goal is to grow beyond that.