On Guillotine, varsity numbers...

[littleguy301]

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.

aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.

Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.

you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.

I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.

[aarons23]

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.

aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.

Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.

you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.

I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.

Lg...we get it your from a small school....that doesn't mean you can't improve.  That doesn't mean you should give up and jump on the cutting weight classes band wagon....good thing schools like Stratford and now tge emerging  GET didnt take that road.  Its not easy...it won't happen over night. Maybe you dont have the right people in the right places.  A good coach doesnt always make a good program builder. 

As far as your continued comments about ADs....come on man....the ones I talked to understand the issues....they are not looking to the sport to cut weight classes.  Infact I believe cutting  weight classes would be more destructive because it would indicate to those outside the sport that we inside the spirt think its dieing. 

Finally...you keep trying to take a swipe about open enrollment....I dont care...but its one aspect of running a school that should be run like a business. If you are doing things to improve your programs and other see it they will want be part of it.  If you do nothing or dont at least stay up with your competition then you not only will less in your district participating but will likely loose some to other districts.  Im not sitting on my hands and watching my customers go else where.

[bigG]

Seems to come in waves where I am. We never burst at the seems; heck our best year we just filled the weights and had two backups. Next few years look a little grim; but, hey, I gotta hit the hallways and invite kids up. I'm fine with the weight classes; but can see how losing a few might help the smaller schools. Still nobody's gonna jump to help the small rural schools. Here, it's more about kids getting involved young and showing them the fun it is to wrestle in tourneys and duals. Now, we have duals set with middle schoolers starting out against each other and progress to the big show. Give the fans a reason to come even when our numbers are less.

[Handles II]

Aarons,
I think you are confusing the issues. I don't believe anyone on here is saying that cutting weights will increase participation at an individual school. Though using your analogy that at some schools, kids may quit if they don't have a varsity spot, I'll counter that with some kids may stay in the sport because they will not be forced onto varsity when they aren't ready. Wrestling JV may give them time to learn and keep them in the sport. Is it fair for us to equate our two ideas?

Secondly, Let's just say in the next 5 years we lose 50 more schools in wrestling. All of them are teams that could not fill their varsity weights (let's just say they could fill 10 weights, which is the average that we are seeing thus far in the numbers) and therefore were 12-24 points behind their opponents before the first match started due to forfeits. They were unable to win many if any matches, and this is what the public and admin saw year after year.

With my math we would lose much more than the 50 programs and 500 wrestlers. We would be losing the entire culture of wrestling in these areas. Gone. No reason for youth clubs, no reason for anyone to wrestle at all. No wrestling to benefit kids in other sports. No more wrestling families. This is what my concerns are. If on a well-structured team, with plenty of wrestlers, a kid or two doesn't go out because they don't want to lose a wrestle-off, then 1. That isn't anything new, and can't be looked at as a new problem, it will happen on every basketball team by 11th grade also. 2. They need to read Wrestling Sturbridge and get some perspective and learn why being a back-up isn't a bad thing.

[littleguy301]

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.

aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.

Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.

you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.

I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.

Lg...we get it your from a small school....that doesn't mean you can't improve.  That doesn't mean you should give up and jump on the cutting weight classes band wagon....good thing schools like Stratford and now tge emerging  GET didnt take that road.  Its not easy...it won't happen over night. Maybe you dont have the right people in the right places.  A good coach doesnt always make a good program builder. 

As far as your continued comments about ADs....come on man....the ones I talked to understand the issues....they are not looking to the sport to cut weight classes.  Infact I believe cutting  weight classes would be more destructive because it would indicate to those outside the sport that we inside the spirt think its dieing. 

Finally...you keep trying to take a swipe about open enrollment....I dont care...but its one aspect of running a school that should be run like a business. If you are doing things to improve your programs and other see it they will want be part of it.  If you do nothing or dont at least stay up with your competition then you not only will less in your district participating but will likely loose some to other districts.  Im not sitting on my hands and watching my customers go else where.

aarons please reread my post.

I stated that I am all for 14 weight classes.

My point is that wisconsin has 9 man football and that seems to be working out some what. I am also pointing out that having a division with 12 weight classes might be an option.

GET is doing great, they really are. Also do you realize that it is MM/GET. It is a co-op with 5 towns. No rip on any of those schools. That is just how it is is.

In my area look up all the co-op schools. I really like that to keep wrestling but with that you lose on some aspects also.

In the district I live in we have shown continue growth over 50 years. We are at 500 enrollment. Though I look at some of the neighboring towns that are in St Croix County and they may no be doing as well as people think they are.

On your thoughts of a shot to open enroll,,,,,,to be honest I have no idea what your getting a huff about. I see in some areas that recruiting does go on. Well to be honest who is that helping? Sure the school that does but it isnt helping wrestling.

Also, I get it. Your making your business grow and putting food on the table. But seriously to move from district to district for wrestling, I will never understand that way of thinking. Also aarons, before you think I am talking a shot at you, I have no idea what your situation is nor do I care. Just happy your having fun and your children are doing well lin the sport.

[bigG]

MM-GET is doing great now, that they have the GET kids to help with numbers/wrestlers, but this happened when the co-op happened. MM had lesser numbers through the years, despite great coaches who, I'm sure, went through these debates in their own minds.

Ironically, most of our open enrollment comes from families that prefer the smaller school and tighter controls. I have yet to talk wrestling, or any other sport, during my conferences with these folks. I'm sure the sports open enroll happens; but I don't see it that often. If so, adios. I just tell wrestling focuses kids/parents that the best wrestler all want that scholarship. Very few are to be had and what usually brings a very good wrestler that scholarship is more grades than wrestling.

I'm just refreshed that, in the age of sports open enrollees, many parents actually just look at what's best for their kids as a whole. Any such parents out there may PM me and I'll show ya God's country and the nicest school ya ever visited.

[shouldvewrestled]

Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.

Glad you are not our coach. This mentality is what is killing wrestling.  No it is not the team demanded concept of football all working together in one single moment.  Yet that is what practice is, getting your teammate better so when it is their turn to help the team whether that is getting a pin or fighting like mad to hold off a state champ to only a decision it is still for the team.  If it was just for the individual that kid just failed himself who lost a hard fought 11-4 decision.  Yet in a dual his crowd might be screaming louder than the other teams kid who just won.  It is a team sport with a bigger individual emphasis.

Hard part is most teams never get to see that side of wrestling already being down 12-24 points, and thus it is just an individual sport to more and more and more towns/teams every year.

[littleguy301]

Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.

it depends on where you put your thought into on this.

I am a huge team guy and I believe having a heated dual with a closely match team is out of hand great!!!!!!!

Why did teams opt for the 9 man situation. They just did not have the number to compete in the 11 man area!!!!!!!! plain and simple. Also to be able to compete against liked schools in that aspect.

The goal of every teammate is to be the best partner possible and to help improve their skills and their partners skill.

there is alot more that goes into being a teammate. support, hanging out with, being there in the tough times and the good times.

It is truely a cool experience being part of a good team. I would bet if you asked the Ellsworth kids that stick out wrestling for 4 years and see the varsity mat only a few times, being a teammate would rank pretty high on their list.

I would rather be an average kid on a kick butt team than a stud on a bad team. Much more fun having a good team. Maybe I am wrong but man it is fun knowing that your on a great team.

[bigoil]

It's 8 man football, and you should check it out!!!

[DocWrestling]

Team sports will always have more popularity and participation than individual sports.

If olympics had team duals it would be more popular than the individual tournament and more likely to be on TV.

The great majority of kids in wrestling wrestle for the team!  Why?   Because there individual successes will never get them a medal or a picture in the paper.   A kid goes 0-2 in an individual tournament and he feels like a "loser" as he spends the rest of the day watching the stud wrestlers.  A kid loses his match in a dual but the team wins still goes home feeling like a winner and gets to walk through the line shaking hands knowing he was on the winning TEAM.  That keeps him in the sport.

[bigoil]

Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.

it depends on where you put your thought into on this.

I am a huge team guy and I believe having a heated dual with a closely match team is out of hand great!!!!!!!

Why did teams opt for the 9 man situation. They just did not have the number to compete in the 11 man area!!!!!!!! plain and simple. Also to be able to compete against liked schools in that aspect.

The goal of every teammate is to be the best partner possible and to help improve their skills and their partners skill.

there is alot more that goes into being a teammate. support, hanging out with, being there in the tough times and the good times.

It is truely a cool experience being part of a good team. I would bet if you asked the Ellsworth kids that stick out wrestling for 4 years and see the varsity mat only a few times, being a teammate would rank pretty high on their list.

I would rather be an average kid on a kick butt team than a stud on a bad team. Much more fun having a good team. Maybe I am wrong but man it is fun knowing that your on a great team.

plus 1! Wrestling is a TEAM sport!

[DocWrestling]

It's 8 man football, and you should check it out!!!

And it is growing and as its growth rate will pick up each year as it becomes more standard.  I can guarantee if they created a division for wrestling with fewer weight classes that many schools would choose that

[bigG]

I love all three styles; but currently Folk is the only one to focus on the team aspect. Man, duals are where the workers earn their checks and feel the love for their hard work. Even if you bump a mediocre kid up to try a state placer or champ and he does well, it's a big deal. Duals just have more opportunity to hook kids in. LG/Oil +1 here.