Time to Revamp Student Testing

[imnofish]

I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction.  If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better?  The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students.  Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability.  That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent.  Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.  

[DrSnide]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.

Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation.  Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").  
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.

Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya.  You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.

Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly  what is happening.

Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year.  Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized.  Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized.  I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days?  My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.  

Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty.  I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.

Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized.  Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments.   Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized.  Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this.  You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty.  etc, etc.

So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent.  It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?

Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.

DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............

DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?

and I agree with the educators on the issue, I'm just responding to the point Handles was making - have not seen where teachers are getting their pay docked for what their students do (nor should they be) like physicians. Contrary to his point, Docs are held accountable financially for the equivalent of patient "test" scores even when they have no control over how the patients behavior or their environment an more than a teacher has control over the student's family life, behavior, or environment.

As far as too many Doctors - the reverse appears to be true (and growing) there is not nearly enough which leads to all sorts of 1) shortages and 2)lack of competition which means Doctors can keep/obtain jobs easier despite often times bad behavior.  I know of a few psychiatrist that should/would normally be fired but it would mean closing down who programs because there is nobody to replace them.  My impression is that there is perhaps too much supply of teachers but that may be changing.  

[DrSnide]

First ramjet, I'm not wrong.
I'm fine with testing. I give tests. I meet standards and work to get my kids to meet standards. I collaborate, my teaching and work is reviewed by peers and administration. I believe even standardized testing can have some value, but not in the way they are currently implemented and the "power" that gives some to judge schools, teachers, students.

Snide,
You are talking about an entirely different situation and yet one that I do not agree with. I understand that they types of penalties you are speaking of are, like punishing teachers, a very bad way to help or "fix" health care.
Let's backtrack and look at a dentist as that example. Are they punished, are dental offices shut down, if patients come in with cavities?

To be clear, I agree for the most part with your position on testing - its overreach by those who do not know the field - just as the feds are doing with healthcare.  How is it an entirely different situation - in one providers and institutions are being held accountable for outcomes that are largely based on  the behavior, family history, demographic factors, and environments of their patients.  The opposition to testing, as I understand it, is that teachers and institutions would be accountable for student scores which are heavily influenced by student behavior, family history, demographics, and environment outside of the their control.   What am I missing here?  Other than there is actual monetary loss for health care providers and institutions at this point?

I have not experience with dental offices so I cant speak to that, I do know we are laying off people and many clinics are closing because of these new rules so theres that....

[bigG]

Ram,

I'm not converted, fish said he agrees with testing. Even though handles indicated ALL teachers are against testing. I will take him at his word that he supports testing.

He also said there is too much testing and I'm in agreement, I have kids taking 3 MAP tests, a state test, etc in one year. My kids start to obsess with the score. Give us a benchmark each year, if necessary for the State t test every 3-4 years have at it.

He also alluded to micromanagement of learning. Changing styles every couple of years is ridiculous.

I also know that the testing takes some time out of normal instruction as well as teaching to a test clearly takes place in some curriculum.

The "we are all saying the same thing" was in reference to the teachers who post on this forum. I should have clarified.

Ramjet, I know you want accountability, teachers and schools to be punished when students don't perform to someone's expectation.  Tell you what, once Doctors are punished because their patients are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, or in other ways make decisions that are against doctors orders and cause health problems (ie failing their "Test"), then I'm fine with teachers being punished too. Once dentists are fired, and dental offices are shut down because people aren't brushing and flossing per dentists recommendations and getting cavities (ie failing their "test").  
You wouldn't do this because you realize that a doctor or dentist has no actual control over their patients. No matter how often they tell a patient to adjust their behaviors, no matter how much the doctor or dentist cares about the well-being and future of that patient. You are smart enough to know that their patients aren't widgets or KT numbers. Ditto teachers, and perhaps more so. We don't get paid more for working extra with the failing kids. Dentists get paid more for filling a cavity than just a check-up and cleaning. Think about that.
Take the power out of the hands of legislators on something they know nothing about, nor do they care about. This is simply an attack on public schools (which is pretty obvious since the testing is not required in private or voucher schools). Experts in education from teachers-aides on up the ladder are virtually all saying standardized testing, in it's current form, is not good for students or education in general.

Well Handles, I got some bad news for ya.  You may want to start looking for your accountability pom poms.

Thanks to a recent piece of healthcare legislation you and many of your fellow educators cheered for this is exactly  what is happening.

Don't pass the test and too many patient gets readmitted within 30 days for any reason - feds are going to penalize that in fact 2/3s of hospitals and providers were financially penalized for this last year.  Doesn't matter that the patient was admitted for a heart attack and continued to smoke 2 packs a day and was readmitted for pneumonia - penalized.  Doesn't matter that you work in an economically disadvantaged area - same standard as a new hospital in the burbs - penalized.  I have admitting privileges in an inpatient Psyc unit and a inpatient AODA facility - want to guess how many readmissions they get in 30 days?  My guess would be the equivalent would be financially penalizing the school and teachers if little Jonny gets a D in Math and then another D or F within 30 days in any other class - regardless of what's going on at home, community, SES, etc.  

Another beauty in the legislation were are facing now - if you don't get enough people signed up for online health record access - huge financial penalty.  I work in a small, rural, hospital and they are facing a significant fine because not enough patients want to do to this or have internet access (our patients tend to be poor and/or old) doesn't matter - Federal government (and again legislation that many of you cheered for) says a huge fine is coming. Again if you are familiar with Infinite Campus - it would be the equivalent of penalizing school districts because not enough parents were logging into Infinite Campus.

Docs get scored on a whole list of quality metrics - your patients doesn't feel like you address pain aggressively enough (i.e. give them enough opiates) you get scored badly on the survey (test) and you get financially penalized.  Patient thinks the room is too noisy on the ICU and puts in in the survey - may get dinged in your reimbursments.   Patients don't listen to you and continue to smoke - you can get penalized.  Patient outcomes - regardless of the patient's behavior - is seen as a hospital and provider failing and there are financial penalties for this.  You have a solo practice and don't need an EMR - too bad the feds think you do - penalty.  etc, etc.

So even if you think this is "fair" - and since you and many of your cohorts supported it so I will assume you do- just remember the word precedent.  It is not established that providers can be held financially responsible for poor outcomes of their patients - how long before some politician with an ax to grind uses this precedent on you?

Well DR, sounds like you aint liking this one bit either.

DR,,,there is already things in place against educators so............

DR,,,,,how many DR are there to teachers, is there is many DR out there?

and I agree with the educators on the issue, I'm just responding to the point Handles was making - have not seen where teachers are getting their pay docked for what their students do (nor should they be) like physicians. Contrary to his point, Docs are held accountable financially for the equivalent of patient "test" scores even when they have no control over how the patients behavior or their environment an more than a teacher has control over the student's family life, behavior, or environment.

As far as too many Doctors - the reverse appears to be true (and growing) there is not nearly enough which leads to all sorts of 1) shortages and 2)lack of competition which means Doctors can keep/obtain jobs easier despite often times bad behavior.  I know of a few psychiatrist that should/would normally be fired but it would mean closing down who programs because there is nobody to replace them.  My impression is that there is perhaps too much supply of teachers but that may be changing.  

I back you big-time on the doctor thing. Healthcare is becoming as big a scape-goat as education. Politically manipulated to be a disaster; so the people who caused it get no blame, and the victims of it can get more blame.

I live in a place that already has a tough time keeping doctors. Now the revolving door will just go faster.

There are more teachers than jobs; but that tide always turns every few decades. This year might be my second graduating class with not one teacher.

[bigG]

TMI.

We should take the money we spend on the WKCE and put it towards whatever new testing we're going to be doing. But if we're going to keep switching things up, year after year, we will be wasting tax money, and much instruction time. You can't believe what the new tests are costing in missed instruction time. We already blow quite a bit instruction time on these current low validity/reliability tests. Keep changing and the $ amount will pale compared to the teacher/student time lost.

They call us boneheads DACs (District Assessment Coordinators) and we have to set up the kids, the test, etc. I've spent much time on all these idiosyncrasies among tests. Time I could spend getting kids into colleges and getting scholarships, etc.

I guess you can tell which parts of my job I like and the parts...well, not as much.

[ramjet]

HandlesII

What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?

I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.

I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.

A you are 100% wrong I have never ever posted or said I am OK with Voucher Schools receiving public money not being held to the same standards and requirements as any Public School. So please stop making things up about me it's not very nice or is it any way shape or form accurate. Accountability if they receive public funding should be the same as any Public school. If they do not receive public funds then the accountability lies with those who pay the tuition and for the life of me I have no earthly idea what anyone would send their children to school that is not accountable or that does not have standards or meet the minimum standard.

[ramjet]

I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction.  If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better?  The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students.  Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability.  That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent.  Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.  

I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is  weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality".  Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.

[bigG]

HandlesII

What do you suggest ? (I do not want a cut and paste) what do YOU think would work better?

I just find it odd that you're fine with voucher schools that have no required testing but you want "accountability" in public schools.

I'm not against testing; but as I'm sure you know this is much more about money than kids. I wish ACT/Pearson and College Board were traded publicly.

A you are 100% wrong I have never ever posted or said I am OK with Voucher Schools receiving public money not being held to the same standards and requirements as any Public School. So please stop making things up about me it's not very nice or is it any way shape or form accurate. Accountability if they receive public funding should be the same as any Public school. If they do not receive public funds then the accountability lies with those who pay the tuition and for the life of me I have no earthly idea what anyone would send their children to school that is not accountable or that does not have standards or meet the minimum standard.

So, we agree. 

[bigG]

I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction.  If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better?  The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students.  Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability.  That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent.  Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.  

I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is  weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality".  Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.

You make a good point. I know I use the results much more than I may have 5 years ago. I use practice ACT results to feedback teachers so they know where the kids are lacking. The big advantage to this testing thing is more data points; and statistically, that's good. There's value to testing; but that value has to be considered/balanced with the cost.

[bigG]

I should also mention the assessments, along with grades, attendance, extra-curr. activities, etc. make useful data sets. Our EWS doc. is an incredibly efficient way to flag kids early for this or that help. I want fair warning of challenges and accomplishments. I see a kid who doesn't like the classroom experience so much as the shop experience, we gotta get the tuff stuff (Chem., Bio, Alg. etc.) out of the way to allow for much time in our pristine shop, in that case. We also have the kids that are great at school the whole way around. A+, doesn't matter what class: AP Physics or PE. Man, these kids take good care of our shop. Other times you see that science girl and , over time, gently let her know that STEM women get some financial bennies. Nice to have a sense of "intelligence" direction. by that I mean multiple intelligence direction. Match talent with love, and think of worse case scenarios, along with great prospects, you hope they find the career that makes them happy.


My colleague made this great Excel Spread that has muchos variables and can isolate them. Testing isn't useless; but I'm miserly with my money. I pay taxes, too. I'd just like some figures before I get too mad/thrilled. But, we do have some good data points and can focus a little more on silent feedback. March 3. If you know a Junior, they'll probably be nervous. Also a great opportunity for many. Let's look at the numbers. Prepare to look bad, but also to improve. You just worry about too much test prep and more testing. You hate to prepare just for the interview, but not the real job.

[littleguy301]

I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction.  If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better?  The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students.  Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability.  That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent.  Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.  

I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is  weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality".  Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.

Ram,,,maybe with you about judging but if these test continue and the schools get more of them, it may become the only way for certain people to judge if a teacher is doing their jobs.

While I support some testing because I do want to see a result, there is also much more that goes into that test than most people realize or want to look into.

I have heard from uneducated parents that if there child tests are low it is ALL the teachers fault because so and so does well with me at home or did good with a teacher a few years back. Like I have said before, kids change and the enviorment they work in also changes. Pre-teen kids dont adapt as well to a changing envoirment as an adult would.

I think many fight those tests because many believe that all these tests take away actual learning time. I have heard it and being in and around schools you also see it.

Just like wrestling, you need drill time more than you need match time. No school would schedule meets 4 nights a week and on the weekend and have 1 practice.

also, my I see my sons test scores on the blah-blah and then on the next blah-blah and he is going to be taking the next blah-blah and that will lead into the 4th blah-blah test for the state or who ever. I dont need my son to go through 4-5 outside tests a year to know where he is lacking or achieving I can see it on his daily work and week grades. That is enough for me because I have become so numb to these tests that I really dont care about them, I take the results and average it out over the 4 and look at his daily and week work and see he is right on track with all.

[imnofish]

I think much of this discussion has turned in the wrong direction.  If the purpose of testing is (as it's being portrayed) to inform instruction and help students do better, why are we focusing on retributive actions against the very people whom are trying to help them do better?  The real questions we need to consider are whether or not current testing protocols are actually following through on the promises being made and if the results will sufficiently benefit students.  Instead of exploring what the research says about these concerns, we have gravitated to a narrative that blindly accepts retribution as justice and accountability.  That errant path is also predicated upon an unfair assumption, based on political rhetoric from both parties, that teachers are inherently incompetent.  Let's agree to put that aside and focus on what's educationally appropriate.  

I think only those who have something to hide should feel like they are being punished so that said I think this is  weak and common place attitude from the "old gaurd Union mentality".  Being held accountable and having the tools provided to recognize areas of need and intervene to help kids should not be looked upon as a punishment. I do not know of one Teacher who was fired as result of test score NOT ONE. Low test scores does NOT equal termination that in its self would be not only unjust but maybe boarder on unlawful. But you Fish are guilty of coming across that Teachers will be judged on this alone and only on test scores and you know better than that and that is not the case as you seem to want me to believe.

Sorry if you got that impression, as that was not my intent.  My point is that we can probably make a lot more sense of this issue without casting aspersions on those trying to make it work for their students.  Name calling and generalized assumptions directed at those people are unnecessary and irrelevant.   

[ramjet]

G we may have always agreed on that one point.

Fish I do not see casting aspersions on a teachers over standardized testing. I see the use as dis ribbed several times good reference data to improve.

LG we are pretty close on this.

[jaguarwrestler]

I think it is so sad they so much weight is put on things like the ACT

I mean a standardized test that takes a couple hours could determine the next 50 years of your life?

Do great... oh boy your going to Harvard, do poor... good luck at McDonalds

Truth is not everyone is a great test taker, some struggle with written tests, everyone thinks differently, processes info different, interprets things different. Some are not good at memorizing answers for a test. I use to memorize info... if you have tested me a year later on the same test without me memorizing again I'm sure I would have done poorly.   

ACT doesn't determine your level of intelligence or what your able to accomplish in life but don't tell that to the college admissions board.

[ramjet]

Wow Jags sounds like you have an axe to grind.

Not the only criteria to be considered.