Time to Revamp Student Testing

[imnofish]

No, that can't be accurate.  Teachers are technicians and kids are machines that they build....   and all the machines work flawlessly every time, at the same time.   

[bigoil]

+1000

Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.

I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter  . I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.

This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.

If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them. 

I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.

[imnofish]

Good points about educating kids...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/01/20/ten-obvious-truths-about-educating-kids-that-keep-getting-ignored/

[Handles II]

+1000

Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.

I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter  . I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.

This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.

If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them. 

I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.

See, that's the business side of it coming into education. The quality nor the widgets have anything to do with it. My kid simply answered some questions wrong because of a distraction. That has ZERO to do with his ability to read, comprehend, or answer questions on a teacher-given quiz or test, daily work, or in life.
That these tests have become a "tool" to use as a way to punish a school, a teacher, or judge a child's intelligence is outrageous. I don't need to ask for a change, or a re-test, or anything of the sort. I'm also very aware that on his first test, he might have guessed correctly a few times and that artificially elevated his first score.
To an unknowing parent, or a business minded individual, yes, it sure looks like he got lots more stupider in 6 months and that darn skool and teacher are obviously two blame  . But they aren't, and he didn't. And that is the entire point. It is the point that you and so many other simply don't get, or refuse to get. I'm sure you learned from teachers in your past. Try it again, we are all saying the same things about standardized testing, and have been for years.

[bigoil]

+1000

Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.

I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter  . I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.

This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.

If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them. 

I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.

See, that's the business side of it coming into education. The quality nor the widgets have anything to do with it. My kid simply answered some questions wrong because of a distraction. That has ZERO to do with his ability to read, comprehend, or answer questions on a teacher-given quiz or test, daily work, or in life.
That these tests have become a "tool" to use as a way to punish a school, a teacher, or judge a child's intelligence is outrageous. I don't need to ask for a change, or a re-test, or anything of the sort. I'm also very aware that on his first test, he might have guessed correctly a few times and that artificially elevated his first score.
To an unknowing parent, or a business minded individual, yes, it sure looks like he got lots more stupider in 6 months and that darn skool and teacher are obviously two blame  . But they aren't, and he didn't. And that is the entire point. It is the point that you and so many other simply don't get, or refuse to get. I'm sure you learned from teachers in your past. Try it again, we are all saying the same things about standardized testing, and have been for years.

2 points clearly don't make a sample size to judge. My kids have been tested for years and clearly shows a pattern. Do you not see that?

Since 2 points don't make a sample size, would you look into why test scores were down for 100 kids or assume they all guessed good last time? I'd look into it and try to solve the problem.

Sorry, not all teachers don't believe in testing.

[imnofish]

The overwhelming majority of today's teachers disagree with the current testing regimen and how it is being used.  It does not do what it is purported to do.  Instead, it drains huge amounts of money and time from the educational experience, that could be utilized much more effectively.

[Handles II]

No use fish, Bigoil doesn't believe it, even when teachers are saying it to him. If you won't believe us bigoil, just do a google search. The number of teachers AND parents against the current methods of standardized testing is huge and growing as more people learn that students are not actually widgets.

[ramjet]

So HandlesII without a cut and paste what is the alternative?

How do we measure the impact or effectiveness or teaching and education methodology?

How do we measure teacher effectiveness on an individual basis?

Frankly this topic has been beat to death here and you have the same division between folks here as you do in the general public.

What is interesting is educators that I have spoke too about this feel testing is an integral part of measure,ent of success and considering tha Colleges require test results among other things for acceptance why not get these young folks ready.

Here is another thing isn't each match a wrestlers has a "test" of wha they are learning and retaining in practice?

[bigoil]

No use fish, Bigoil doesn't believe it, even when teachers are saying it to him. If you won't believe us bigoil, just do a google search. The number of teachers AND parents against the current methods of standardized testing is huge and growing as more people learn that students are not actually widgets.

Do you believe we should not test kids at all? I don't think we need to take MAP testing 3 times per year. Once a year is good for me as I then have several data points per child. Again, my take is on my children not on "judging" you. My point is that if I am an administrator and seen a huge drop from an entire class, I might look into it and same if I seen a major increase. What could be done to replicate how the kids learned or the environment they were tested. Seems like common sense to me.

[littleguy301]

+1000

Testing is way out of hand, and designed to do a few things 1. Make money 2. judge the teacher/school 3. judge the student.

I'll use my own 5th grade son as an example. September reading test he tested at an 8.1 grade level. Just got the January results back and he dropped to a 7.0 grade level.
I know he didn't get not smarter  . I know he can still read and comprehend as well today as he did in august. I asked him what happened. He said when they tested, the classroom through the wall were doing a hands-on project and it was kind of loud, and he couldn't concentrate.

This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it is a great example of why these tests actually have no meaning, other than a very general one.

If a state legislator got a look at his test, he would conclude that the school and teacher were not doing their jobs properly and could punish them. 

I would say that someone should ask those questions whether that be you (as you did) or the district or the state. If your son was producing widgets and he produced 7 units instead of 8 or if the quality was 7 instead of 8, wouldn't the company or customer at a minimum inquire (as you did) and likely ask for a change to improve the results. Obviously two points aren't enough data to go off but I personally like the testing and ask about changes to the tests, that have happened over time. My kids care enough to ask what TAN and COS mean on their MAP test as they haven't been exposed to that yet.

Do you expect ALL emplyees to do the exact same work?
I am sure your an equal opurnity employer and does a person with a handicap have the same expections as someone without?
Do you have a mentally chanalleged worker working with a very gifted worker side by side?

I can NOT compare in this case a 10 year with someone in the work force as to the abilty to do a job or be constitant in doing the same day in and day out.

The middle schooler that I coach can be all over the specturm in terms of how the aditude is from one day to another. I will say the ones that seems to have a much lesser swing in what effects them seem to do much better in day to day stuff.

Before anyone gets on the band wagon that I am not for test, yes I am for test because that is what I judge my kid by being a non-teacher. Though I also take those tests as a marking point as to where he/she is on the scale and what needs to be done to improve, work on or move to another step. I dont base a single test as to where my child is on a whole that I feel many do.

A worker in the work force hopefully can handle some stress and can still be productive at there job. Put a child in a divorced family and lets see if their test scores change while that child goes through a divorce.

Death in the family
Divorce
punishment for doing something wrong
lack of sleep due to all the extra stuff todays children do.
Changing families
Doesnt click with the teacher
God forbid that middle school kids are going through some serious changes with their bodies

During 1 year of testing for a child that is in that 10 year old range or middle school I believe should be done on a 3 year curve because YES during one single year you could see some pretty interesting changes,

Use test for what they are worth, a guideline for age devoplment and that is it.

I just can NOT in the case handles mentioned justify that anyone failed with the test that he talks about. Take a look at the age, enviorment or just where the kid is at that point. Lets see a 3 year curve to tell the real story.

[imnofish]

Since the brain of every student has not yet matured, matures at its own individual pace, matures into its own unique pattern of individual strengths and weaknesses, and won't mature until well into adulthood, standardized tests are incapable of accurately measuring student progress in a way that accurately defines student progress and potential.  The educational process essentially plants seeds of comprehension that often don't germinate for several years.  There are countless examples of kids who struggled academically, had poor test results, etc., yet were highly-successful adults.  Concepts with which we struggled during childhood eventually made sense in adulthood, as our brains matured and we connected vague remembrances with current, real-life experiences and challenges.  Several of us who post on here probably fit that mold.  I know that I am certainly an example of it. 

[littleguy301]

Howavi,,,,,,I have to give this example and I would like your honest thoughts on this.

You come to me and want me to teach your child a double leg takedown. I have 1 season of wrestling to do this but he is in a group of 30 other kids.

So I work with your child the same as the others on the team for the entire season and at the end of the season you child does not do a double leg that is any better than the first day of practice.

Under your thought the test was to do a double leg and I failed miserably in your eyes because in 1 season your child double leg did NOT get any better. I should be fired then or be put on notice because your child could not achieve the goal you wanted.

OK, for some reason your child really liked wrestling (which is good) and continued to stick it out for 3 more years. At the end of the third year he is doing that double leg that you wanted. Same coach doing it but it took 3 years to achieve your goal for your child.

Where is the coach now?
O ya, your child grew X amount in weight and height
Voice was noticably lower

Now by your thoughts that if you see in 1 year no improvement or a decline then there should be something done. Sure I have no problem with it but give it some time, people learn at different speeds.

Also, you in your position can hire the people you WANT to hire. Your just not given a group of people and are expected to achieve certain goals. You get to hire who you feel can achieve your goals.

Whether it is public, private or charter, your limited in who you can actually put in your school rooms. Sure some have more influence in class dynamics but if your asked to make ALL 10 year olds or probably any school age children to learn at the same level your maybe not on the same page as many people in education are. Great you have goals but while your children are achieving, maybe your childs friend or neighbor is not achieving at the same rate.

[littleguy301]

I personally think that many get caught up on test scores, much like wins and losses.

Sure I look at those 3 things I mentioned also and get caught up in the score, wins and losses. But really a test is a measuring stick as to what to improve and work on. Much like wins and losses. If you are losing you need to get back to the basics to achieve that goal of winning. If your winning then it is time to take the next step in your goals and take on new tasks.

I look at dual meets as a gauge of what as a team needs to be done in practice. What is lacking, what needs improvement to become better for the next dual meet. It is not about the Wins or Losses it is about what needs to be done to get better.

Now I am still talking about the middle school aged students. I look at high school, especially the senior year as to where you want to be in terms of success.

I have to steal this one and I will try to do it justice.

If your goal is to graduate high school than you need to work to achieve that goal. If your goal is to graduate college than everything leading up to the college degree should be learning and working for it. Then if your goal is to be a DR (example) then all the schooling up to that point should be geared to be a DR. Meaning that you need to take the classes during those years to achieve your goals. At imes maybe taking tests or classes that may drop your GPA but will help your attain your goal of what ever it is.

Now with the wrestling

if your goal is to win a high school state title as a senior, every thing you do to that point should be geared to be the best practice to that point. If your goal is to be a college champ than everything up to that point should be practice. If your goal is to be a olypmic champ, then all the work you do should be training up to that point.

I know this may sound strange but people train/learn at different levels, speeds and goals.

[littleguy301]

Since the brain of every student has not yet matured, matures at its own individual pace, matures into its own unique pattern of individual strengths and weaknesses, and won't mature until well into adulthood, standardized tests are incapable of accurately measuring student progress in a way that accurately defines student progress and potential.  The educational process essentially plants seeds of comprehension that often don't germinate for several years.  There are countless examples of kids who struggled academically, had poor test results, etc., yet were highly-successful adults.  Concepts with which we struggled during childhood eventually made sense in adulthood, as our brains matured and we connected vague remembrances with current, real-life experiences and challenges.  Several of us who post on here probably fit that mold.  I know that I am certainly an example of it. 

I kind of sound like your post.

Didnt care one ounce about high school only to stay eligible for sports. Then fast forward, I matured and found something I like and learned as much as possible and I personally believe I have become good at my job or career. Took me awhile but I somehow got it but I still have teachers to this day that stuck by me whether I wanted it or not and are generally pleased that I matured and on whatever level became productive to this world.

[ramjet]

The tests are the same across the State so if you have a school that is far below average then it would seem they are not collectively doing something as well as th average Schools. Likewise if  a school is far above it would be nice to know why and how would that translate to those below average.

A standards are used everyday in life.

Measurement of gas for example.
Employee evaluations ... for example sales gross margin.
Certified welder a take tests.
Plumbers take tests.
Most things where you are "Certified" requires proof of a competence level that shows you are up to the standard.
Matches won vs losses.

Look at the big picture here.

Also that's why they test several times a year to try and minimize the impact of intangibles.

How does one small school compare to another in vey specific subjects and how do they compare to the average and to the high and the low.

Again what would be an alternative to testing?