Badgers at NCAAs

[Vir Fortis]

I will respectfully disagree.  I think it is more important to be able to recruit the best talent nationally rather than in state first.  If the goal as you stated is to more than occasionally "very good".  In state recruiting success is helpful but not nearly as important as national success in pulling wrestlers to the program. 
MN couldn't get Mark Hall and others for different reasons.  We were not able to keep one of this year's best recruits who is going to Wyoming I think.  Another good kid, multiple time placer doesn't want to wrestle anymore.  There are too many situations to list.
If you look at the numbers below it is obvious where one should be recruiting from.......
Pennsylvania42
New Jersey33
Illinois33
Ohio22
Michigan17
California17
New York16
Minnesota14
Iowa13
Indiana11
Colorado11
Oklahoma9
Florida9
Virginia8
Missouri8
Wisconsin7
Kansas7
Georgia7
North Carolina5
Maryland4
West Virginia3
Washington3
Arizona3
North Dakota3
Montana3
Massachusetts3
Tennessee2
Utah2
Nebraska2
Connecticut2
Alaska2
Wyoming1
South Carolina1
Oregon1
New Hampshire1
(Cuba)1
Kentucky1
Idaho1
Hawaii1
Alabama1
Emphasizing in state recruiting over national recruiting puts you with the present Gopher program.  They do quite well overall of keeping MN kids.  When we were at the top we were drawing kids from all over the nation.

This is where this is getting just a little frustrating. If you want to just keep looking back and miss out on, again, what Askren has said will be the best class in Wisconsin History, the '24 class...fine.

Everyone's recruiting Penn...including the...what, dozen Division 1 programs from the State(a little hyperbolic, but not much).
Mark Hall wasn't a Minnesota kid, he was a Michigan kid who went to Kentucky to Wrestle one 7th grade year and then Minnesota to Wrestle two more Middle School years and then was planning on going back to Davidson, but decided not to.

But you DID keep Gable Stevenson. You kept Ness. You kept other Minnesota Wrestlers who worked out to varying degrees.


And I do not care about what Wisconsin produced in the past. I've said repeatedly on here it was hard to blame Davis as Wisconsin didn't produce much in-state talent. THAT is very clearly and very OBVIOUSLY changing...and I'm genuinely baffled as to how it's controversial to say they need to keep their top kids in state if they want to get to that next level.


You've got a 170 pounder who's ranked 4th in the Nation as a Sophomore. Seems like it'd be a good idea to keep him in state.
You have another Sophomore who just won the Triple Crown. Probably a good idea to keep him in state.
Don't know what Milard's ranked and I don't care, he wrestled a future Division 1 Wrestler who just went 3/1/1/1 VERY tough in the State Finals.


So I don't care how many All American's Wisconsin produced in 1990 in 2000 in 2010. I'm looking at who they have coming up...and it's loaded.

And nobody's saying you don't go into Penn and hope that you can steal a top recruit from Penn State or Iowa or the other dozen programs that already have deeper inroads into the Penn powerhouse programs. We can look at Bo Basset, a 7th grader who's almost certainly following his Cousins to Cornell if he doesn't go to Penn State. We can try a lot of things. Just feels like the simplest might be to keep the guys who keep winning National Titles and are ranked atop their classes at their weights...in the State they grew up in if possible.



I feel like I'm saying "hey, it's probably not a good idea to jump into that shark infested water with chum all over you," and people are disagreeing. I don't care if the sharks didn't used to be there. They're there now. And I'm not blaming anyone, I'm not revising history and saying you should have recruited Buchanan over Amos(it was never a question and I believe as the story goes Buchanan only got a partial at Wyoming...as VERY few Wrestlers get full scholarships). I'm not blaming the current coaches or the program for NOT getting the kids who are currently Wrestling at a very high level.
I didn't blame Barry Davis in the past because...again, we didn't produce a whole lot of talent.

I'm simply saying RIGHT NOW with the talent that Wisconsin is producing...a couple of those kids being within an hour or two from the Campus...THAT needs to be their priority.


https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/7234411-25-wisconsin-high-school-wrestlers-you-need-to-know?msclkid=484b32f0a8af11eca9cf4ce4cc4cd411

Pff...this guy! Acting like he knows something about something...

[MNbadger]

" I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him."
I remember the excitement and "need" Gopher fans thought there was to get him.
Just shows that it is often times a crapshoot.

[Vir Fortis]

We can continue to be "good" and occasionally have a "very good" year but I'm saying that if we want to go to the next level and be there consistently, we'll have to get  more (we'll never get all) of the top in-state kids. As others have said, HS talent here is getting better so that's an opportunity lost if you don't take advantage of it.

Unfortunately, we have a tradition of the top Badger wrestlers being from out of state and the top in-state talent having more success out of state. Look at all the national champions that went to HS in WI - guys like O'Toole, Dieringer, Konrad, Askren, and other that have been AAs. Almost all the AAs went out of state, and all the national champions did lately.

This is a tradition that Bono inherited so I'm not blaming him. I don't even know if I can blame Davis either. To a certain extent, this is just the way it worked out. Look at it this way: lots of room for improvement in this area. Seems like the low hanging fruit that is available to get us over the hump. Other pathways will be much more difficult. I think the UW coaches would agree.

If feels like people are reading the, "we need to keep the top Wisconsin kids in-state," as some sort of indictment against the Badgers and Bono. For me, it's not. I speculated what an all-Wisconsin lineup would look like, but that wasn't meant to suggest we have to get every kid from the state or that we really screwed up by getting Amos over Buchanan(I really don't understand how anyone took that from what was written).

As for Davis...if he deserves blame or not I think is immaterial. We're talking about how we can get better right now. Barry Davis didn't have the in-state talent that Bono is looking at in the future.

Wisconsin is a little unique compared to Michigan, Penn, Iowa as they all have multiple D-1 schools. Wisconsin has had ONE since...what, 2001 when Marquette dropped their program.

So while I think it's pointless to look at how many AA's Wisconsin High School HAS produced in the past when looking forward, you also need to look at how many in-state schools you're competing with.

Keegan O'Toole is not a Badger. That's fine. Still great to see him succeed as it's proving that Wisconsin kids can come in and have success. Same with Parker, same with Buchanan. I made a lineup with them just for fun, a hypothetical lineup. Not because I think they screwed up not getting all of those kids.

And for the record...the Badgers ARE doing better. If Rivera wants to be a National Champ, I'm absolutely convinced he can and he will be. And we just got him. I watched him just dominate the #1 ranked Wrestler(I believe overall at the time) in the Cheesehead finals. He didn't get a 5 point move and then hold on. He took him down and DOMINATED him on his feet. That's the type of kid you want to keep in state.

Grayson Clark...they have him committed. THAT'S the type of kid you want to keep.

So they're moving in the right direction. IT'S A GOOD THING!!!

I'll throw one other name out there that I think the Badgers should go after who's probably not a big time recruit at the moment. That Ethan Riddle from Germantown. He looked exceptional on his feet.


So I think we're moving in the right direction...we just need to keep moving in that direction.

[Vir Fortis]

" I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him."
I remember the excitement and "need" Gopher fans thought there was to get him.
Just shows that it is often times a crapshoot.

Ok...kinda a strange takeaway from that, but what's stranger is that you're using Marcus LaVesseur as an example of a kid who I guess DIDN'T pan out?


He won his last 300 matches he wrestled...including all 155 he Wrestled in College on his way to 4 National Championships...and IIRC, he was undefeated for Minnesota during his redshirt year. Something like 15-0 or 20-0.

He decided he wanted to go to Augsburg and play Football. And he did. He played both and was a great QB. If the Badgers spend the time and energy recruiting Koy Hopke and after a semester he decides he wants to go to...Whitewater and wins 4 National Titles and sets records as a OLBer or whatever, so be it.


But I hope you're into Yoga. Would hate to see you pull something with that reach.

[MNbadger]

My point was that we would have been frustrated had we not gotten him.  Never won a DI match other than open stuff.  Yep, a DIII legend but DIII and DI could not be more far different than they are.  I mentioned earlier that some choose other paths, my own kid did. 

[vsmf2010]

" I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him."
I remember the excitement and "need" Gopher fans thought there was to get him.
Just shows that it is often times a crapshoot.

Ok...kinda a strange takeaway from that, but what's stranger is that you're using Marcus LaVesseur as an example of a kid who I guess DIDN'T pan out?


He won his last 300 matches he wrestled...including all 155 he Wrestled in College on his way to 4 National Championships...and IIRC, he was undefeated for Minnesota during his redshirt year. Something like 15-0 or 20-0.

He decided he wanted to go to Augsburg and play Football. And he did. He played both and was a great QB. If the Badgers spend the time and energy recruiting Koy Hopke and after a semester he decides he wants to go to...Whitewater and wins 4 National Titles and sets records as a OLBer or whatever, so be it.


But I hope you're into Yoga. Would hate to see you pull something with that reach.

I think you completely misunderstood what I said about Marcus LaVesseur. I was only referring to him in reference to my personal thoughts about Askren at the time which was that I thought we was a clown and would not develop into great college wrestler. Clearly I was completely wrong. This had nothing to do with LaVesseur. He is fantastic and I have no doubt would have been capable of being a D1 champ if he decided to go in that direction. My quote is below.

I do not believe the UW recruited Askren very hard or at all. He was definitely considered out there and there were some questions about him. Definitely a miss but understandable. I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him. I personally at the time thought he was a clown and did not think he would amount to much on the college level. Obviously I was completely wrong.

[MNbadger]

I get your point.  I was just pointing out that it is a crapshoot as evidenced by Levesseur. . As you(or someone else) said not everyone was sold on Askren and he turned out to be a big timer.  I think we are in agreement.

[vsmf2010]

I get your point.  I was just pointing out that it is a crapshoot as evidenced by Levesseur. . As you(or someone else) said not everyone was sold on Askren and he turned out to be a big timer.  I think we are in agreement.

I was responding to another poster and you are correct my point was simply that my impression of Ben at the time was not good and I was completely wrong but it really had nothing to do with MV.

[Vir Fortis]

My point was that we would have been frustrated had we not gotten him.  Never won a DI match other than open stuff.  Yep, a DIII legend but DIII and DI could not be more far different than they are.  I mentioned earlier that some choose other paths, my own kid did.

Sure...if only he Wrestled guys like say...Keith Gavin who won a National Title or Tyron Woodley while he was in College, I guess then we might have some idea. But as it stands the two could not be more far different. I mean...they're both Wrestling and LeVesseur proved he could beat elite Division 1 talent, but sure.

[Vir Fortis]

" I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him."
I remember the excitement and "need" Gopher fans thought there was to get him.
Just shows that it is often times a crapshoot.

Ok...kinda a strange takeaway from that, but what's stranger is that you're using Marcus LaVesseur as an example of a kid who I guess DIDN'T pan out?


He won his last 300 matches he wrestled...including all 155 he Wrestled in College on his way to 4 National Championships...and IIRC, he was undefeated for Minnesota during his redshirt year. Something like 15-0 or 20-0.

He decided he wanted to go to Augsburg and play Football. And he did. He played both and was a great QB. If the Badgers spend the time and energy recruiting Koy Hopke and after a semester he decides he wants to go to...Whitewater and wins 4 National Titles and sets records as a OLBer or whatever, so be it.


But I hope you're into Yoga. Would hate to see you pull something with that reach.

I think you completely misunderstood what I said about Marcus LaVesseur. I was only referring to him in reference to my personal thoughts about Askren at the time which was that I thought we was a clown and would not develop into great college wrestler. Clearly I was completely wrong. This had nothing to do with LaVesseur. He is fantastic and I have no doubt would have been capable of being a D1 champ if he decided to go in that direction. My quote is below.

I do not believe the UW recruited Askren very hard or at all. He was definitely considered out there and there were some questions about him. Definitely a miss but understandable. I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him. I personally at the time thought he was a clown and did not think he would amount to much on the college level. Obviously I was completely wrong.

I understand, but I wasn't replying to you. UW recruited Askren, I don't know how hard and I agree, there were a lot of questions about how his style would translate. I believe he even said as much in an interview at one point.

But MNBadger took that comment to make the point that Minnesota fans would have been so upset had they not gotten Marcus. Well...yeah, obviously. And if he didn't decide that he wanted to play Football AND Wrestle and he went to another school, it'd be a stronger point. As it stands...I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to take from his decision to drop down to D3 so he could play multiple sports.


But I absolutely agree with you about Askren. There were differing opinions on him. And then he went on and had one of the best Wrestling careers ever.

You're always going to miss on some kids. Destin McCaluley who was cited earlier. He was as talented as any Wrestler in his class. But he had just wrestled 6 years for Apple Valley...which can grind a LOT of people down.


This discussion is kinda a moving target. Not with you, but with others. Pointing out that even great recruits don't always pan out...I don't know how that argues that you shouldn't recruit kids from your own state who are the best in the Country at their respective weight classes. It's just a strange point. Eric Swick didn't work out. He beat Cael IIRC when they were both in HS. Sucks, but I don't think it was a bad idea to recruit Swick.

That you don't know how a kid will end up is not an argument against trying to recruit and keep the best kids in your own state home. I think we agree on this.

[MNbadger]

I agree that you try to keep kids in state, yes.  But looking at the top teams(most teams) the way to get there is recruiting nationally. 

[whatever]

Recruiting nationally and keeping the top in-state talent are not mutually exclusive.

P

[Vir Fortis]

Recruiting nationally and keeping the top in-state talent are not mutually exclusive.

P

[wrestlemania]

Askren said the '24 class will be the best in Wisconsin history

Yeah and that "bag of milk" will do anything to make sure that none of them will attend UW. If he held the program in contempt before when Davis was there, he absolutely hates it now after his RTC falling out with Bono. Do not wonder why the coaching staff may well look further than the state's border for recruits as much as we want the state's top wrestlers in Madison because there's a powerful counterforce against it.

Bottom line is UW coaches are going to recruit kids who are talented and want to wrestle at Wisconsin, not those who don't.

My only point is don't assume because a wrestler had in-state success in high school they'll have it in Madison. History shows that often times it doesn't happen.

Again, having a successful wrestler from Wisconsin, someone who can win a title, will go a long way to helping to program. Maybe Barnett, who knows?

[vsmf2010]

" I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him."
I remember the excitement and "need" Gopher fans thought there was to get him.
Just shows that it is often times a crapshoot.

Ok...kinda a strange takeaway from that, but what's stranger is that you're using Marcus LaVesseur as an example of a kid who I guess DIDN'T pan out?


He won his last 300 matches he wrestled...including all 155 he Wrestled in College on his way to 4 National Championships...and IIRC, he was undefeated for Minnesota during his redshirt year. Something like 15-0 or 20-0.

He decided he wanted to go to Augsburg and play Football. And he did. He played both and was a great QB. If the Badgers spend the time and energy recruiting Koy Hopke and after a semester he decides he wants to go to...Whitewater and wins 4 National Titles and sets records as a OLBer or whatever, so be it.


But I hope you're into Yoga. Would hate to see you pull something with that reach.

I think you completely misunderstood what I said about Marcus LaVesseur. I was only referring to him in reference to my personal thoughts about Askren at the time which was that I thought we was a clown and would not develop into great college wrestler. Clearly I was completely wrong. This had nothing to do with LaVesseur. He is fantastic and I have no doubt would have been capable of being a D1 champ if he decided to go in that direction. My quote is below.

I do not believe the UW recruited Askren very hard or at all. He was definitely considered out there and there were some questions about him. Definitely a miss but understandable. I recall him following around Marcus LaVesseur with a boom box blaring before the finals at Bi State and LaVesseur proceeded to tech fall him. I personally at the time thought he was a clown and did not think he would amount to much on the college level. Obviously I was completely wrong.

I understand, but I wasn't replying to you. UW recruited Askren, I don't know how hard and I agree, there were a lot of questions about how his style would translate. I believe he even said as much in an interview at one point.

But MNBadger took that comment to make the point that Minnesota fans would have been so upset had they not gotten Marcus. Well...yeah, obviously. And if he didn't decide that he wanted to play Football AND Wrestle and he went to another school, it'd be a stronger point. As it stands...I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to take from his decision to drop down to D3 so he could play multiple sports.


But I absolutely agree with you about Askren. There were differing opinions on him. And then he went on and had one of the best Wrestling careers ever.

You're always going to miss on some kids. Destin McCaluley who was cited earlier. He was as talented as any Wrestler in his class. But he had just wrestled 6 years for Apple Valley...which can grind a LOT of people down.


This discussion is kinda a moving target. Not with you, but with others. Pointing out that even great recruits don't always pan out...I don't know how that argues that you shouldn't recruit kids from your own state who are the best in the Country at their respective weight classes. It's just a strange point. Eric Swick didn't work out. He beat Cael IIRC when they were both in HS. Sucks, but I don't think it was a bad idea to recruit Swick.

That you don't know how a kid will end up is not an argument against trying to recruit and keep the best kids in your own state home. I think we agree on this.

I think we do agree and this thread has been a moving target for sure. The forum can be a little dangerous because nuance and subtlety are easily lost and one typo or mis-read and the meaning can be misconstrued.

I want them all period! The best from WI and the best we can get nationwide. Hopefully they can fill the room with some under the radar kids or late bloomers because the money does not go very far and you cannot pay for much depth. I do have confidence in the coaching staff and their ability to recruit. They have assembled a really nice group for next year (9 I believe) with a good mix of headliners and depth pieces and with Rivera coming in late as icing on the cake. I think he has a very high ceiling and was a fantastic get. I had kind of lost hope when Willie posted that he did not have the grades but thankfully he was incorrect or Rivera turned it around.