Matside weigh-ins; read info before voting

[Handles II]

Ok, the other thread about singlets got hacked by matside weigh-ins. Personally I can't possibly see how this would in any way increase participation "Hey Johnny, how would you like join our sport so you can step on a scale in front of 300 of your friends, relatives, and neighbors and if you are .o1 over the weight we need you to be because your family couldn't afford the lightest shoes on the market, you can't participate?". I don't see how it will improve our fan base, other than those who enjoy going to cattle sales or work at interstate weigh stations. Nor do I see how it would improve the sport for coaches (now that coaches reaction to a missed weight is for all the public to see), or in the eyes of the general public to put MORE about weight and making weight on the marquee.

For those who think this would stop weight cutting, you are simply wrong. For those who think the kids cutting weight will lose and learn a lesson because of this, you are wrong again. The kids cutting a lot generally don't lose, most have many years of experience doing it, as well as in the sport of wrestling. Will some matches be lost by this, sure. But look at the weigh-ins now, most guys who know what they are doing could kick the crap out of their opponent if there was a mat in the locker room and would do so without a sip of water.

However...I'm nothing if not open minded  Please, tell me how this will increase numbers, increase fans, and be better for the sport. I'm all ears.

[woody53]

I know there is a lot of support for this, but if you want to kill the sport more, Mat Side Weigh-ins will do this. There is enough pressure on a young wrestler to perform. It can be over the top at times. Now you want a young wrestler to make weight in front of Mom and everyone. What if you wore a different brief. What if you had new shoes. Lets embarrass a young wrestler more by not making weight in front of everyone. Yes, that will add more participants to the sport. How about we weigh in all High School Sport participants in front of everyone. Girls Volleyball. Football. Lets do a skin fold in front of everyone.
Mat side weigh ins will not help our sport.
Rant off.

[Handles II]

how many of you would accept a job, a paying job, if you had to make weight each week in front of all fellow employees, your boss, and the competing company? And if you were overweight, your sales numbers, reports, footage, or ideas couldn't be used at all.  Plus it would be in the local papers and all over the various forums.

Sounds like a great plan.

[DocWrestling]

I guess this is what bothers me about wrestling.  I am for matside weigh-ins.

You guys are wrestlers and thus are focused on every ounce by bringing up "different briefs" or "lightest shoes".

Why does a wrestler have to choose a weight class that he even has to worry about his weight like that.  Why can't we promote kids to naturally weigh 135 or 136 and wrestle 138 rather than cut to 132 or more likely 126.

Our system rewards those that cut which just forces more cutting or even disdain if you are not cutting.

Maybe I am dreaming of a utopian world unlike the one I experienced where cutting weight certainly diminished the fun of the sport.

Matside weigh-ins rewards the kid not cutting weight.  He is at his physically best at match time and is focused only on the match.  The guy cutting weight will have his performance more affected physiologically and his mental focus will be more worried about the weigh-in than the match.  This tilts everything in favor or the wrestler not cutting weight.  A kid cutting weight will be even more negatively affected with consecutive matches at a tournament

Now take away the growth allowance and the additional pound per day and you are again helping the kid that is not cutting and chose the right weight class rather than the lowest they could go.

Now make the wrestler compete 75% of his matches at the weight class (or higher) to compete at that weight class at regionals.  Make him cut all year if he wants to cut.

I just cannot wrap my head around the joke that is calling it a certain weight class when the kid does not weigh anything near that by the time an hour passes, or by the time the finals are wrestled or after growth allowance and consecutive days and extra lbs are given  We just pretend and fool everyone.  Does it make sense that the finalists for 106 state championship might weigh 115 lbs by the time they wrestle Saturday night.  Our system rewards him rather than the guy that weighs 106 naturally.  Our best wrestlers can easily cut weight to make a Saturday morning weight and beat a low seed and then by the time finals roll around they are heavier and stronger.

I get the point of weighing in front of the crowd.  The weigh-in could be easily done in a locker room.  Each team would just need a team representative present. IN college we used to weigh in with coach the day before wrestling.  We made it safer with going 1 hour before.  Now lets take the next step.  Can easily be done right when the match before begins.  Would take 30 seconds.  Especially important at tournaments and just as easy with two tournament workers doing.  Skin checks could all be done ahead of time by the official.

It would certainly make the sport healthier and would push kids away from worrying about weighing .1 under.  They would simply know they are 1 lb under and start warming up. 

[bman]

The difference between weighing and match time vs the current format is about 2 hrs on average between the weigh in and match for dual meets and tournaments.  Will that make a difference in performance and stamina? Probably, but will it be noticeable?  Possibly not.  Will it make a difference in the amount of weight cut, or in the numbers of individuals cutting more than a few pounds?  I don't know.  I agree that (with 106 being 109 the first day of state, and 1 pound each day) it is weird calling it 106 lbs even though they can weigh up to 111 lbs the last day of wrestling.  For every argument against growth allowance etc. you will get an argument why it is unrealistic unsafe etc. to not add an allowance.  I would advocate for the old school certification.  In early December, there is a cut off date.  The first weigh in after that date is the lowest you can compete in for the remainder of the season.  Having to make scratch weight would scare many kids off.  You could also add in a minimum percentage of matches must be contested at the lower weight in order to be able to compete in that weight class come tournament time.  Though well intentioned, the current policy of skin fold etc.  has too many holes in it to reach the desired effect of minimizing excessive weight cutting. 

[littleguy301]

I would be all for mat side weight ins but like it was posted, how about the other sports.

Under the WIAA, all sports should have skin checks so I feel that before basketball, volleyball games you should have court side weigh ins. Can you image the out rage for girls sports.

I think the morning of is just fine for the sport.

[MNbadger]

I agree with Woody and Handles.  This would change the outcome of zero matches.  We have done weigh ins a great number of different ways throughout the years.  None of the changes have been significant (the same people are seeing the same issues).  "Why can't we promote kids to naturally weigh 135 or 136 and wrestle 138 "  .... you can!  Some kids do.  It is up to the individual. 

[vsmf2010]

I am the guy who "hacked" the singlet post if that is how you want to present it. What I said was that I have been the proponent of the (2-piece) singlet for quite some time and that along with mat side weigh ins. These 2 things would have the most profound change on making the sport more appealing to the masses.

I also said this would require a mindset shift which clearly is not being considered, for the most part, in this thread. In order to do this you have to remove the idea of weight cutting and making weight. The idea of a 45 lber weighing 144.75 has to go away. If you are that close than that is not your weight class. For your weight class you should land safely in the middle with lbs to spare. You get in the best shape of your life and wherever you land fully hydrated that is your weight class. Needless to say the weight classes will need to change significantly.

There should be no stress at all when you walk up the scale before your match. Your weight is your weight with a little fluctuation based on how much food is in your stomach. It will me no different than checking in at the table. The point of this is you wrestle the people that are your own size without the dehydration, the meal skipping, the skin fold manipulation, the grumpy evenings at home, the falling asleep during your classes etc.. All the people that were cutting a lot of weight will still be wrestling each other and the ones that have not will actually be wrestling someone their own size instead of someone 10 or 15 lbs heavier.

To say this would change the outcome of zero matches is just not true. Since I stopped coaching I watch a lot more college and I can give you dozens and dozens of examples where a wrestler looks completely different in a dual (short turnaround) or an early tournament match than he does at the end of day after he has a chance to regain his strength. Just realize how crazy this sounds. Could you imagine if all the football players had to hang on and make it through until half time so they could regain their strength.

As far as how it would help the sport I have talked to multiple parents about why their kid stopped wrestling to play basketball or why they do not like wrestling and the 2 most common things were the weight cutting and the fear of skin diseases. I also have tried to recruit many HS football player and the first thing out of their mouth is "coach, I am trying to put on weight for next year not lose it"

This is from the bio of Badger Johnny Jimenez:
Off the Mat with Johnny
First started wrestling: Age 5
One thing I absolutely have to do before I turn 40: Sky dive
My favorite thing about Wisconsin wrestling is: The awesome coaches and teammates
If I could change one wrestling rule, it would be: No cutting weight

How many other college and HS wrestlers would tell you the exact same thing. Very telling I think.

As a side note I worked on race cars for a number of years and we never asked the driver to lose weight or dehydrate so that we could put more lead in the car for the polar moment advantage of having the weight low and in the middle or left.

[padre]

Seriously? You guys that want it act like teams like ours that generally have full teams also get that amount of kids who actually weigh the specific weights we are given. Some kids wrestle their weight, some weigh less and yes a good amount have to cut to make it all work out. If you are on a team with multiple forfeits I suppose you can wrestle your natural weight all 4 years.

I can just see it....

(Radio broadcaster): we are set for the state finals with John Jones vs Matt Black...this should be a great one. The two are headed to the scale(really?)....and it looks like a forfeit as Jones is .1 over...he shouldn't have taken that last sip of Gatorade I guess. Maybe next year he will wrestle the next highest weight class so he is always 4 pounds under(really?)

[Handles II]

I guess this is what bothers me about wrestling.  I am for matside weigh-ins....

I get the point of weighing in front of the crowd.  The weigh-in could be easily done in a locker room.  

You are free to change your vote Doc  . Matside weigh-ins are a horrible idea.

I of course get your point about what kids weigh naturally and performing there. But as long as there are any type of class to separate one wrestler from another even if they are named flyweight, middleweight etc as has been suggested, as long as a scale is used the .1 of an lb will make a difference and will be important. Making a spectacle out of it certainly won't solve the problem. Maybe we should put a teeter-totter in the middle of the gym and if the two wrestlers sort of balance out, they can be allowed to wrestle? What if one of them had gym class or went for a morning run and the other didn't? 2-3 lbs difference from morning to night isn't uncommon.

As for "natural" weight of which you speak, awesome, I love it. What is a wrestlers "natural" weight? Is it what they weigh four weeks before the season starts? Or four weeks after it starts? I know in my wrestlers there is almost a 10-12lb average difference in that weight even in my JV kids who are not trying to make any weight class simply because of the training they are doing. What about after an additional 4 weeks? My guys tend to gain a bit of weight as they have built muscle  since the start of the season (we strength train daily).  What about the kid who is "naturally" 28% bodyfat because of poor choices in diet and exercise? Maybe he should only wrestle like-bodied wrestlers?  Take my JV kid Dylan. He weighed 164 at the beginning of the season. At our last practice before JV Conf tourny he was 149 without missing a meal. A combination of hard work and healthier eating, along with a burst of puberty completely changed his physique. His mom complained that he was getting "too skinny" and didn't want him wrestling 152 even though he bf tested for 120!  Please tell me what that boy's "natural" weight is and who he should wrestle and how that should be judged.

I appreciate what you are trying to say. I agree and I make sure my wrestlers are eating and at a healthy weight, but what is healthy and what is "natural" can be two very different things. It is extremely rare to see the human skeletons on the mat that did occur 15-20 years ago. Yes, some kids are still doing it wrong, but at state we see guys who are well muscled, and some that are pretty ripped. They can bust butt for 6 grueling minutes and then do it again and again. Most could easily run 5 miles and do 20 pull ups and 50 push ups. Is that bad? If so, why, and what would be an example of better health than that?

[missinghome]

How about this.
1)Bring in Doctors on skin fold day. (not the school trainer who is best friends with most of the coaches and wrestlers)
2) Have them sign a certificate that would make the Doctor responsible (This would eliminate all the cheating that goes on now, and we all know it does)
3) Raise the body fat to at least 10%.
4) Make it a rule that if you don't have that 10% when you fat test you can't wrestle until you do. This would keep kids from cheating the system (for the real skinny kid you have to have a doctors permission to be under)
5) Reduce the amount of weight a wrestler can lose per day. 
The reason I say involve Doctors is I don't think I have ever seen a Doctor who supports the kind of weight cutting that goes on in wrestling, so the system would become a lot more healthy which is the bottom line.

[foose4]

How about this.
1)Bring in Doctors on skin fold day. (not the school trainer who is best friends with most of the coaches and wrestlers)
2) Have them sign a certificate that would make the Doctor responsible (This would eliminate all the cheating that goes on now, and we all know it does)
3) Raise the body fat to at least 10%.
4) Make it a rule that if you don't have that 10% when you fat test you can't wrestle until you do. This would keep kids from cheating the system (for the real skinny kid you have to have a doctors permission to be under)
5) Reduce the amount of weight a wrestler can lose per day. 
The reason I say involve Doctors is I don't think I have ever seen a Doctor who supports the kind of weight cutting that goes on in wrestling, so the system would become a lot more healthy which is the bottom line.

What?  Really?  I bet my son has at best 10-12% before he starts wrestling.  Hey kid, get a note from the doctor that your naturally in good shape....wow.

To do this is each kid going to have to pay a couple hundred bucks to get the doctor to look at them?  There is no way a doctor would sign off on anything without getting properly compensated.  Who pays for that?

[foose4]

Seriously? You guys that want it act like teams like ours that generally have full teams also get that amount of kids who actually weigh the specific weights we are given. Some kids wrestle their weight, some weigh less and yes a good amount have to cut to make it all work out. If you are on a team with multiple forfeits I suppose you can wrestle your natural weight all 4 years.

I can just see it....

(Radio broadcaster): we are set for the state finals with John Jones vs Matt Black...this should be a great one. The two are headed to the scale(really?)....and it looks like a forfeit as Jones is .1 over...he shouldn't have taken that last sip of Gatorade I guess. Maybe next year he will wrestle the next highest weight class so he is always 4 pounds under(really?)

Totally agree Padre, kids wrestle up and down on full teams all the time, the better teams it probably happens even more.

[DocWrestling]

Your natural weight is the one you weigh "every morning" without giving much though to what you eat.  I weigh within a pound every morning unless I really gorge myself.

We all know that most wrestlers weigh something different at weigh-ins than they do later that night or next morning or Sunday night or Monday at practice.

Any doctor will tell you that even if those weights are "healthy" the yo-yo nature is very unhealthy.

The kids are still focused on their weight at all times.

The kids weighing 126 right now are probably much more healthy than they were when they were wrestling at 126.  

[Barou]

I know there is a lot of support for this, but if you want to kill the sport more, Mat Side Weigh-ins will do this. There is enough pressure on a young wrestler to perform. It can be over the top at times. Now you want a young wrestler to make weight in front of Mom and everyone. What if you wore a different brief. What if you had new shoes. Lets embarrass a young wrestler more by not making weight in front of everyone. Yes, that will add more participants to the sport. How about we weigh in all High School Sport participants in front of everyone. Girls Volleyball. Football. Lets do a skin fold in front of everyone.
Mat side weigh ins will not help our sport.
Rant off.

Agree 100%  In fact, not only will mat side weigh ins not help our sport, it will be the beginning of the end of our sport.  This would cause some of our current wrestlers to quit and make it virtually impossible to recruit the non-wrestler kids in the hallways.  Right, wrong, or indifferent it would lead to a reduction of participation.