Matside weigh-ins; read info before voting

[Numbers]

Please, tell me how this will increase numbers, increase fans, and be better for the sport. I'm all ears.

Probably better for the sport.  Anything that discourages weight cutting by heavy dehydration should be viewed as a positive.

At least kids could not bounce 5-10 pounds for each Saturday tournament by dehydrating.  Some might still do it, but I believe less would.  If they did, holding them more accountable for their large weight cut is reasonable.  Those few kids have a two weight class advantage for the finals. (yes a rule for everyone for the few that abuse)

How would mat side weigh-ins be implemented?  Still have traditional weigh-ins but with singlet and shoes?  So you verify weight at the mat and maybe give a 1 pound "matside allowance" to reduce some stress.

Get something approved in Wisconsin to "test" at voluntary high school tournaments next year.  (Just gathering additional data by weighing kids before each match, kids would not be disqualified if they bounce "extra" pounds)  Maybe just test this at the state individual tournament.  I believe when the skinfold testing started back in 90-91 give or take a year, the first year was on some voluntary (not enforced) basis on what your lowest allowed weight class would be that year.

[vsmf2010]

Please, tell me how this will increase numbers, increase fans, and be better for the sport. I'm all ears.

Probably better for the sport.  Anything that discourages weight cutting by heavy dehydration should be viewed as a positive.

At least kids could not bounce 5-10 pounds for each Saturday tournament by dehydrating.  Some might still do it, but I believe less would.  If they did, holding them more accountable for their large weight cut is reasonable.  Those few kids have a two weight class advantage for the finals. (yes a rule for everyone for the few that abuse)

How would mat side weigh-ins be implemented?  Still have traditional weigh-ins but with singlet and shoes?  So you verify weight at the mat and maybe give a 1 pound "matside allowance" to reduce some stress.

Get something approved in Wisconsin to "test" at voluntary high school tournaments next year.  (Just gathering additional data by weighing kids before each match, kids would not be disqualified if they bounce "extra" pounds)  Maybe just test this at the state individual tournament.  I believe when the skinfold testing started back in 90-91 give or take a year, the first year was on some voluntary (not enforced) basis on what your lowest allowed weight class would be that year.

You bring up some interesting ideas. The first step would be just gather data. Leave the rules as is but have mat side weigh ins (fully equipped ready to wrestle) at a big tournament (Bi-State, WIAA State, Cheesehead, OTW, etc..) just for the purpose of finding out what 126 lbers weigh 1st round, 2nd round etc.. at least at that point we would have some idea of the scope. You could make the data anonymous if wrestlers or coaches do not want the real weight to get out. I am not sure why that would be an issue but I could see some having a problem with it.

[bulldog]

No matter what you institute weight cutting is always going to be a part of the sport...If you say you are going to skin-fold in August kids will start cutting in July. If you say mat side weigh ins kids will cut to make the lowest weight. It is part of the sport. What can be cleaned up is the difference in skin fold process. Last season we took our son to one person to "test" him...and then we did the real skin fold. Two people with two widely different results.

Scratch weight certification...great idea...I love the old school way of making weight at least once. Kids will still cut down but I know so many kids that wait to drop until they get the 2 or even 3 lbs

10% body fat...even off season neither of my kids have ever hit above 7%

I don't understand the argument from the beginning of this thread about having weigh-ins for volleyball and football players. Weight class has nothing to do with those sports as far as I know.

And Handles...your point (from earlier) about weighing in at the job...how about thinking about it this way...making weight is a commitment. I don't believe in deep weight cutting but I believe wrestlers learn the importance of setting a goal and the importance of meeting that goal. That is something that is part of every day in the workforce. I am not saying it is the best way to learn this but it is part of it. I never missed weight when I wrestled and I have never missed a deadline, a sales goal, an appointment or a annual budget in the workforce. I believe wrestlers understand how to hit targets better then many other athletes.

[padre]

I have approximately 30 wrestlers going to regionals. Many of whom are dropping a couple pounds over the last couple weeks to go to the weight they feel is best for them. This is decided by the parents and the wrestler as I don't tell them what weight to go to. I do stress at every practice that healthy eating will make them feel better. If I have a chunky kid that weighs 112 and the weight classes are 110 and 120 I may suggest no soda and healthier eating to be at a weight they may feel better at.

My own son who enjoys fast food has not had any in three weeks. He feels better and in the process has lost three pounds with daily work outs and proper meals. I have noticed he has much more energy in practice and matches. He was not chunky at his starting weight...but these pounds still came off.

So my question is why is this so bad? Is it better for a kid to learn commitment and healthy choices in this sport or is that not acceptable anymore? Are clubs like mine "the devil" because their kids are taught in a good program you may have to commit to a weight class? If so...I'm ok with it because these were things I took away from the sport and feel they helped me with the rest of my life.

[Jeff Farrell]

Padre.....Why is it so bad....at the forefront, everything you point out isn't bad.  Just don't associate the promotion of healthy eating and weight loss, with athletic performance.  That's the problem.

What is bad is the downstream behavior that it may promote.  Its my belief that it starts with the notion of just "cutting 1 or 2 pounds", and then where does it go, if your wrestler has success with it?

[bulldog]

Thanks Pardre...once again you said what I was thinking in a much better way then I could.

Making a weight class is part of the sport, you can talk about all the negatives and it is still going to happen. I am always amazed when weight cutting discussion comes up on this forum. It always seems nobody on this forum is cutting weight and/or their kid is only watching what they eat and that is enough for them to make weight. So I wonder where the problem is. Or is the forum only representative of a small minority of WI wrestling? Not saying this to argue...just curious.

My kid cut weight in HS. He got down to a healthy weight based on good (clean) eating and workouts. Then he dropped a weight class below. He maintained that weight the entire season...thought about going down one more for regionals but an injury ended his season. Was that lowest weight class healthy? Well, the skin fold data said he could go down to that weight...so I guess the WIAA said it was healthy and nobody is pushing them to change...right?  

a side thought...I think it would be interesting to take a poll of all state qualifiers and find out how much they weight they are dropping from their "normal" weight to their state qualifying weight. I am going to guess and say I am betting many of the state qualifiers are dropping 2 weight classes. What do you guys think? I have no data on this...just my gut feel.

[foose4]

a side thought...I think it would be interesting to take a poll of all state qualifiers and find out how much they weight they are dropping from their "normal" weight to their state qualifying weight. I am going to guess and say I am betting many of the state qualifiers are dropping 2 weight classes. What do you guys think? I have no data on this...just my gut feel.

This year my son weighed in 4 days after his last competition and he actually weighed less than what he weighed in for his last competition.

Last year he cut, yes cut not lost, a decent amount of weight (1+ weight class) to get to his wrestling weight, but maintained well once he was there.

Both worked out very good for him, but both happened because it was best for the Team and him, sometimes you work with options there are.

[DocWrestling]

I really do not have a problem with losing weight at any level too much if you are honest about it!

Just say you are cutting/losing the weight to gain a competitive advantage and there really is nothing wrong with that at all.  My whole point is to take away that competitive advantage and mat-side weigh-ins are a big part of that.

Lets be honest many youth are losing weight now and not going to eat breakfast or lunch before weigh-ins on Friday of regionals and state.  Then they are going to eat dinner, breakfast, etc and will be heavier by the time they wrestle on Saturday.  That is a competitive advantage over the kids wrestling at their natural weight.  I am not against that but I want to take that away.

What I can't stand is trying to rationalize losing a couple pounds as being healthy.  It is almost like everyone is to afraid to say they are doing it for the advantage and feel guilty.  It is not healthy to be 3-5 lbs lighter for 3 weeks and then go back to your normal weight.  Health comes from long term choices not short term.  

I also worry about what it mentally does.  It immediately tells wrestlers that lower is always better.  Youth wrestlers learn this early when dad wakes them up to go to Saturday tournament and tells the wrestler they need to wait until after weigh-ins to eat breakfast.  It also makes the sport less fun for many.  They are kids and they look at friends and when they hear about the basketball and hockey teams having pizza parties and soda, etc and they are watching what they eat and their weight, that diminishes the fun.  And FUN is the main reason people participate in sports.  Don't pretend you are teaching them healthy eating when you correlate it only to a few weeks a year and tie it to a wrestling event

[DocWrestling]

a side thought...I think it would be interesting to take a poll of all state qualifiers and find out how much they weight they are dropping from their "normal" weight to their state qualifying weight. I am going to guess and say I am betting many of the state qualifiers are dropping 2 weight classes. What do you guys think? I have no data on this...just my gut feel.

This year my son weighed in 4 days after his last competition and he actually weighed less than what he weighed in for his last competition.

Last year he cut, yes cut not lost, a decent amount of weight (1+ weight class) to get to his wrestling weight, but maintained well once he was there.

Both worked out very good for him, but both happened because it was best for the Team and him, sometimes you work with options there are.

This is where it is tough and always will be.  Sometimes the team needs alter the individual needs.  I am guessing your son had more fun this year though if it was that much worry about his weight

[foose4]

a side thought...I think it would be interesting to take a poll of all state qualifiers and find out how much they weight they are dropping from their "normal" weight to their state qualifying weight. I am going to guess and say I am betting many of the state qualifiers are dropping 2 weight classes. What do you guys think? I have no data on this...just my gut feel.

This year my son weighed in 4 days after his last competition and he actually weighed less than what he weighed in for his last competition.

Last year he cut, yes cut not lost, a decent amount of weight (1+ weight class) to get to his wrestling weight, but maintained well once he was there.

Both worked out very good for him, but both happened because it was best for the Team and him, sometimes you work with options there are.

This is where it is tough and always will be.  Sometimes the team needs alter the individual needs.  I am guessing your son had more fun this year though if it was that much worry about his weight

You would be very correct on that.  I am pretty sure that he was one of the very few 120lbers in the state eating pasta the night before a match.   Still watched what he ate all season, altered his diet towards lean proteins and veggies, etc. but was able to eat a better quantity of food and was a very jovial kid compared to last year for sure.

[ramjet]

Cutting weight or fat is not bad.

Dehydrating to get to a weight is bad.

Wrestling needs to draw that distinction.

Education and cooperation about health eating is THE most important thing that a wrestling club or organization can do.

Perception-lets face it the biggest reason kids feel the need to cut is they think they will be stronger at the lower weight than the other guy. They feel this strength will get them the wins they need to make it to State or whatever goal they want to achieve. How do any of you think that you can turn this way of thinking around?

I will tell you and Askren and Crass hit on it; work together collectively and educate these kids that skill and hard work and a healthy diet will put your body at the optimum weight. Skill is what wins matches not just strength.

Mat side weigh ins not good. Everything about them is negative.

1.) Could be embarrassing to the participants.
2.) It puts more focus on weight rather than skill.
3.) Makes the matches (events) more drawn out.
4.) Does little to promote healthy eating and or commitment to getting better.

If it's a problem it has to be addressed within each family each coach each club need to put more emphasis on skill and healthy eating but if collectively the wrestling community does not come together then it go on as it is.

So I would encourage each coach or Club owner and or each parent to promote organized workouts-healthy diets-recovery and improving skills.

[bulldog]

I really do not have a problem with losing weight at any level too much if you are honest about it!

Just say you are cutting/losing the weight to gain a competitive advantage and there really is nothing wrong with that at all.  My whole point is to take away that competitive advantage and mat-side weigh-ins are a big part of that.

Lets be honest many youth are losing weight now and not going to eat breakfast or lunch before weigh-ins on Friday of regionals and state.  Then they are going to eat dinner, breakfast, etc and will be heavier by the time they wrestle on Saturday.  That is a competitive advantage over the kids wrestling at their natural weight.  I am not against that but I want to take that away.

What I can't stand is trying to rationalize losing a couple pounds as being healthy.  It is almost like everyone is to afraid to say they are doing it for the advantage and feel guilty.  It is not healthy to be 3-5 lbs lighter for 3 weeks and then go back to your normal weight.  Health comes from long term choices not short term.  

I also worry about what it mentally does.  It immediately tells wrestlers that lower is always better.  Youth wrestlers learn this early when dad wakes them up to go to Saturday tournament and tells the wrestler they need to wait until after weigh-ins to eat breakfast.  It also makes the sport less fun for many.  They are kids and they look at friends and when they hear about the basketball and hockey teams having pizza parties and soda, etc and they are watching what they eat and their weight, that diminishes the fun.  And FUN is the main reason people participate in sports.  Don't pretend you are teaching them healthy eating when you correlate it only to a few weeks a year and tie it to a wrestling event

1 - you want to "take away" a competitive advantage? in a sport? Okay...then stop open enrollment so football players are not flocking to Kimberly or wrestlers are not enrolling into Kaukauna. That is a competitive advantage. Eliminate club wrestling because only kids whose parents have the $$ to put them into it can participate. That is a competitive advantage. Eliminate youth wrestling...because there are kids that did not participate in youth sports and those that do have a competitive advantage over those that didn't.

2 - Both my sons cut weight for wrestling. We discussed it and they made the ultimate choice. There I said it. I agree Doc...nobody actually admits they are cutting weight. Own up to it.

3 - Mentally...my boys didn't cut or even watch weight in youth (except regionals, then we went to the closes weight class up or down) but then didn't have breakfast before weigh ins...we went out for breakfast after weigh-ins. The kids saw this a part of the experience and maybe a reward for hard work that week. The tournament, breakfast, maybe a new town...those were rewards for working hard in the practice room, having their homework done and keeping their grades up (in reverse order)...if you didn't have your grades up in school you didn't go to a wrestling tournament. Mentally they seem fine

4 - I will pretend that I am teaching them good eating habits. My oldest is a sophomore in college, he still runs, lift weights, watches what he eats. He still weighs close to the weight he graduated. He walked into the HS wrestling room over Christmas break and still was able to stay with the kids in the room...actually he gave our state qualifier his toughest workout in the room. He has learned exercise and eating cleaner is healthy.

Side story...after he was done his senior year he went on an eating frenzy...(yeah, that is wrong). Said to me after that he just felt lethargic and bloated...he hated that feeling. Has not done that since.

5 - I asked my oldest what was "fun" about wrestling. He had fun standing on top of the podium as a result of his hard work. He had fun making friends from other schools. He had fun getting the chance to be on the mat with people he looked up to...like Tom and Terry Brands, Dennis Hall, Lee Kemp. He had fun summer wrestling. Practice was work...but the payoff for hard work was success in matches and in tournaments.

I asked him about cutting weight...he said it sucked, but didn't kill him and he would do the same thing again.

So I think it is about how you (as a parent) make it out to the kid. If you whine about cutting weight and make it a big deal it will suck more to them. I told the boys that they could go up in weight anytime...it was their choice. I supported it either way (actually, one time I didn't...I was wrong).  Maybe I got lucky...so far I got a good kid and I think wrestling had a hand in shaping him.

[DocWrestling]

Understanding dehydration is important and I think a missing point even with coaches that I am sure discuss being healthy and eating healthy.  Many wrestlers still think that they lost weight at practice when they weighed 149 at the start and 146 at the end.  They need to realize they did not lose weight.  They lost WATER!  Yes they burned a lot of calories that will lead to weight loss over time but the immediate loss was only water.

Education is the key.  Other sports try to eat and drink to maximize performance from during the week, to pre-competition, to post-competition.  Wrestlers tend to eat and drink with only focus on what the scale says.

I think our best wrestlers are learning to do both. They are being educated by clubs.  I still remember going to Badger wrestling camps and the night sessions were about nutrition.  But the majority of our high schoolers do not have the discipline to do this right for cutting weight and eating for performance.  They have less fun because of cutting weight and have less fun because they are not successful and these are the reason for the sport's problems in participation numbers.

[DocWrestling]

Can you imagine if a coach truly lived by the 1/2 lb per day rule?  He would have to require every wrestler to be within 2 lbs on Monday to the weight class they are going to wrestle on Thursday to actually be legal to wrestle.  How many of your wrestlers show up within 2 lbs at Monday's practice?

Are they within a 1/2 lb on Wednesday at weigh-in?

[MNbadger]

This is a REAL problem:

"They are kids and they look at friends and when they hear about the basketball and hockey teams having pizza parties and soda, etc."

Seeing eating pizza and pop as "fun" is a much more serious problem long term.