Matside weigh-ins; read info before voting

[DocWrestling]

You guys are right that just having weight classes does force kids to cut simply to fill the weight classes.

Even if on January 1st the WIAA announced a surprise to all wrestlers and bumped up all weight classes 5 lbs, the overwhelming majority would still have to watch their weight closely because they are cutting/maintaining that low of a weight during the season.

The great majority of wrestlers are not "unhealthy" during the off-season just because they weigh more.  Most doctors will say they are more healthy in the off-season at 12-15% body fat than they are at 7% only during the season.

[vsmf2010]

I know there is a lot of support for this, but if you want to kill the sport more, Mat Side Weigh-ins will do this. There is enough pressure on a young wrestler to perform. It can be over the top at times. Now you want a young wrestler to make weight in front of Mom and everyone. What if you wore a different brief. What if you had new shoes. Lets embarrass a young wrestler more by not making weight in front of everyone. Yes, that will add more participants to the sport. How about we weigh in all High School Sport participants in front of everyone. Girls Volleyball. Football. Lets do a skin fold in front of everyone.
Mat side weigh ins will not help our sport.
Rant off.

Agree 100%  In fact, not only will mat side weigh ins not help our sport, it will be the beginning of the end of our sport.  This would cause some of our current wrestlers to quit and make it virtually impossible to recruit the non-wrestler kids in the hallways.  Right, wrong, or indifferent it would lead to a reduction of participation.

I do not understand this at all. Why would a kid quite the sport the because he did not have to cut weight? Recruiting the kids in the hallway would become easier because you take the weight cutting out the equation. I have yet to meet a kid yet who looked forward to weight cutting and dehydration. What positives are these adding to the sport?

On a related note. A wrestler I know is leaving a college D1 school and leaving the sport because he has developed an eating disorder. He had this all the way through HS and his parents did not know it. Was not discovered until he got to college.

[Barou]

I know there is a lot of support for this, but if you want to kill the sport more, Mat Side Weigh-ins will do this. There is enough pressure on a young wrestler to perform. It can be over the top at times. Now you want a young wrestler to make weight in front of Mom and everyone. What if you wore a different brief. What if you had new shoes. Lets embarrass a young wrestler more by not making weight in front of everyone. Yes, that will add more participants to the sport. How about we weigh in all High School Sport participants in front of everyone. Girls Volleyball. Football. Lets do a skin fold in front of everyone.
Mat side weigh ins will not help our sport.
Rant off.

Agree 100%  In fact, not only will mat side weigh ins not help our sport, it will be the beginning of the end of our sport.  This would cause some of our current wrestlers to quit and make it virtually impossible to recruit the non-wrestler kids in the hallways.  Right, wrong, or indifferent it would lead to a reduction of participation.

I do not understand this at all. Why would a kid quite the sport the because he did not have to cut weight? Recruiting the kids in the hallway would become easier because you take the weight cutting out the equation. I have yet to meet a kid yet who looked forward to weight cutting and dehydration. What positives are these adding to the sport?

On a related note. A wrestler I know is leaving a college D1 school and leaving the sport because he has developed an eating disorder. He had this all the way through HS and his parents did not know it. Was not discovered until he got to college.

I don't necessarily disagree with you I just don't believe the majority of kids will share your perception.  I could be wrong but I am of the opinion that a good number of kids would find it uncomfortable.  I think your position has depth that many kids won't comprehend or simply won't try to.  As a wrestling guy I'm all for it I just think it would hinder our ability to grow or even maintain.  I hope my view on this wrong.

As for weight cutting, it looks to me like a large majority of kids could stand to lose 5-10 lbs to make them healthier.  I haven't been a part of a program in a lot of years.  Overall, are we doing better in this area?  It seems like there is more education on weight management and there is oversight.  Seems like things are better than "back in my day" when it was more of a starve and binge type of weight management.

[DocWrestling]

The real research study I want done is to make a formal weigh-in day of all wrestlers on the last day of school or maybe even on something like April 1st to truly gauge how much weight cutting is being done.

You will find a very low percentage of doctors that would consider wrestling to be a "healthy" sport between weight cutting, skin infections, and injuries.  I think if you put every pediatrician in a formal poll and they had to pick the most unhealthy sport of all high school sports, they would pick wrestling.

I am not saying there are not huge positives to wrestling nor do I have any fear of my kids wrestling but saying kids are healthier when they lose weight only during wrestling season is a joke to anyone and everyone in the medical community.  No doctor has ever told a person they will be healthier if they manage and cut their weight for 3 months and then not worry about it.

[Handles II]

I know there is a lot of support for this, but if you want to kill the sport more, Mat Side Weigh-ins will do this. There is enough pressure on a young wrestler to perform. It can be over the top at times. Now you want a young wrestler to make weight in front of Mom and everyone. What if you wore a different brief. What if you had new shoes. Lets embarrass a young wrestler more by not making weight in front of everyone. Yes, that will add more participants to the sport. How about we weigh in all High School Sport participants in front of everyone. Girls Volleyball. Football. Lets do a skin fold in front of everyone.
Mat side weigh ins will not help our sport.
Rant off.

Agree 100%  In fact, not only will mat side weigh ins not help our sport, it will be the beginning of the end of our sport.  This would cause some of our current wrestlers to quit and make it virtually impossible to recruit the non-wrestler kids in the hallways.  Right, wrong, or indifferent it would lead to a reduction of participation.

I do not understand this at all. Why would a kid quite the sport the because he did not have to cut weight? Recruiting the kids in the hallway would become easier because you take the weight cutting out the equation. I have yet to meet a kid yet who looked forward to weight cutting and dehydration. What positives are these adding to the sport?

On a related note. A wrestler I know is leaving a college D1 school and leaving the sport because he has developed an eating disorder. He had this all the way through HS and his parents did not know it. Was not discovered until he got to college.

Sorry to hear about the eating disorder. It happens to non-wrestlers too. That's the unfortunate truth. It's a mental illness caused by a variety of factors.

As for your first paragraph, kids would still cut weight if there are weight classes. Period. They would possibly quit the sport, or not come out because of weighing in in front of the entire gymnasium of people. Nobody needs that. Talk about causing mental/emotional issues.

Doc,
I was never above 10.5% body fat in my life until my senior year of college due to excessive beer drinking. How was I previously unhealthy and then healthier once I put on 7 extra lbs? And how would that extra 7lbs of fat been beneficial for me in wrestling? Why is the thought that 12-15% is healthier than 8-10%? Who are these "doctors" that are saying that, and why are they saying it? Having done body fats for over 20 years, I can say without a doubt that the body-fat % needle is ever increasing upwards. 8-10% was common for kids coming into the season from a fall sport in 1995, now 8-10% is rare in my observations. Is fat healthier?  Or is being fit healthier?  As for your assumption about pediatricians, my bet is football would be the #1 answer, but regardless, we all know how skewed the reality is of our sport vs. the perception.
As for a "weigh-in" months after the sport ends, who cares? Put those guys now "playing" baseball back into a 2 hr grind in the wrestling room and hallway sprints and dang tootin' they would drop some of that gained weight. Not to mention puberty. I've got kids who have grown 2 inches since Dec 1. Of course they should weigh more now. 

[Barou]

The real research study I want done is to make a formal weigh-in day of all wrestlers on the last day of school or maybe even on something like April 1st to truly gauge how much weight cutting is being done.

You will find a very low percentage of doctors that would consider wrestling to be a "healthy" sport between weight cutting, skin infections, and injuries.  I think if you put every pediatrician in a formal poll and they had to pick the most unhealthy sport of all high school sports, they would pick wrestling.

I am not saying there are not huge positives to wrestling nor do I have any fear of my kids wrestling but saying kids are healthier when they lose weight only during wrestling season is a joke to anyone and everyone in the medical community.  No doctor has ever told a person they will be healthier if they manage and cut their weight for 3 months and then not worry about it.

To be clear I never said it is healthy to cut and manage weight for 3 months and then not worry about.  All I'm saying is that GENERALLY speaking it looks like most (not all) kids could stand to lose 5 - 10 lbs for their own fitness for ALL times not just to make a weight class.  If most pediatricians are looking at kids when they are walking out of school, I'd think they would agree or their idea of healthy is different than mine.  In that case I guess I'm wrong as they are a doctor and I'm an HR Director, what do I know?  In my line of thinking I believe 8% body fat is healthy.  Healthier than 15%.  Again, I could be wrong.  I might be part of the joke to anyone and everyone in the medical community that you are referring to.

[MNbadger]

"You will find a very low percentage of doctors that would consider wrestling to be a "healthy" sport between weight cutting, skin infections, and injuries.  I think if you put every pediatrician in a formal poll and they had to pick the most unhealthy sport of all high school sports, they would pick wrestling."

Very few pediatricians would consider football a healthy sport.  Not that two wrongs make a right.....
I always laughed to myself when parents would object to their sons wrestling (for the reasons you stated) and then I would see them playing football.

When I was coaching my wrestlers struggled with their weight at the beginning of the season.  By the time the state tourney came along, they were eating the day before weigh ins and down to a pretty low body fat count.

[crossface21]

Something that just popped into my head: Pop weigh-ins. Wrestlers are forced to maintain weight throughout the season and only allowed to wrestle as long as the losing a  1/2 lb/day rule is followed. You won't see kids fluctuating from meet to meet. They'll be forced to stay around the same weight as the season goes on. No more weighing 134 on Tuesday at practice and weighing in at 126 on Thursday for a meet. A wrestler would always need to be around 126 in case someone showed up to do a random weigh in.

[MNbadger]

That would really kill our numbers.

[crossface21]

So would matside weigh ins.

I'm not advocating for random weigh-ins. It's just something that popped into my head.

[DocWrestling]

Couple of things in regards to health

1) You are correct that many kids and more and more are overweight.  No debating that but in general the great majority of wrestlers are not overweight in-season or out of season.
2) Teenagers should have a higher fat percentage than adults as they continue to go through numerous developmental stages including the brain.  
3) The unhealthy part comes from more than just the fat percentage and health is defined by so much more.  The unhealthy part is the nutritional deficits and hydration deficits that occur to get to 7% for a 1-3 month period as well as the yo-yo effect.   A healthy weight is one that has a good number but also one that is maintained and consistent.  
4) Eating disorders in males are highest in wrestlers, gymnasts, and body builders.  It is negligible in other sports.  Because psychologists seldom see gymnasts and body builders, almost all males with eating disorders they see are wrestlers
5) A teenage athlete should hopefully growing at all times from muscles to brains.  They need a lot of calories for basic metabolism and need even more for those that work out as hard as wrestlers do and we all know that wrestlers are not getting these calories and nutrients and water.

Losing weight for the wrestling season only does not make anyone healthier.  I am certainly not going to say it always unhealthy either.  It just is what it is.

Wrestling is an old school sport that has silly rules just to make us feel better but really do very little.  The 1/2 lb per day rule is broken all the time.  This rule was meant to tell all non-wrestlers that our wrestlers maintain their weight daily and will never lose to much to fast.  We all know kids weigh much more on Monday than they do on Thursday..  The growth allowance is a joke and another feel-good rule.  The body fat testing is also a mess.  Settling on 7% was a huge debate and compromise. We only have this system because 3 wrestlers died in one year and there was overreaction adn none of those wrestlers died because of what their body fat was.  They hydration part of it is silly  Using calipers on teenage kids is very inaccurate and we all assume much cheating goes on.  Why do we give kids a pound for wrestling consecutive days?  Is that because we think they are unhealthy or cutting too much weight?  What is the reason for this because if you say it is for health then you are basically admitting that they were unhealthy and cutting too much the day before?   Everyone drops after Christmas.  Is that because that is when everyone grows?  Nope.  All this is for show and has very little to do with health in the way it is used

Imagine if we weighed every kid on the first day of school and they had to wrestle within 5 lbs of that.  We would have to bump up all the weight classes.  Why do coaches/parents say kids are healthier during the season at the lower weight but then they do not care what they weigh over summer?  They don't care about health, they care about wrestling.  We just need to be honest about all this especially amongst us wrestling nuts that love the sport so much we hang out on a message board.

Our sport looks the other way on cutting weight and comes up with reasons why it is needed.  Our sport pretends that it is the ultimate sport because it matches up kids the same weight but we all know some kids weigh more than others by the time they wrestle on Saturday night or in finals of tournament.  Lets just be honest on all this stuff.  

I would make it real easy.
1) No fat test
2) No1/2 lb day rule-  Makes no sense with a 106 and a 285 having the same 1/2 lb
3) The weight class stays the same all year- no growth lbs and no consecutive days extra pounds
4) Mat side weigh-ins-  Kids will go on the mat weighing what it says on the bout sheet in every match
5) Have to wrestle your WIAA regionals weight class or higher in 75% of your matches over the course of the season.
6) I might even like a crazy rule that states you have random weigh-ins over course of the year kind of like a drug test and you can never wrestle a weight class more than 15 lbs less than you weighed at any of those weigh-ins.  Maybe you allow a waiver for a truly overweight or obese child that is getting into shape and is actually getting "healthier"

I am not naive-  None of this is going to happen and it may not all be good for the "sport" but it would be better for the "athlete" and then we can say the sport is being honest with itself.

[T.Vieau]

No matter what you do or change, there will always be individuals who choose to cut weight. What needs to happen is a cultural change in the wrestling community. A change in which parents and coaches are more involved and educated on proper nutrition and work out programs. A change in which kids are encouraged to eat healthy and build strength and not worry about what a number on a scale says. Mat side weigh-ins will not stop an individual from cutting weight. Parents need to be active in their kids nutrition and encourage what weight class to be at. As well as coaches need to be willing and encourage kids to be at an appropriate weight class " lower is not always better."  There can be only so many tools put in place to try and help protect the kids. Above that it's on the kid, parents, and coaches.

I would be interested to know statistics on if any wrestlers skin fold under the percentage needed for parents permission. Could a change possibly be made to the current standard ( 5% permission, 7% no permission if memory serves correctly?) to say 7% permission needed 8% and above no permission, or would that start to rule kids out?

[DocWrestling]

in regards to health and weight and putting it simply.

Every doctor would tell any athlete heading into a wrestling season that with those hard workouts you must eat more calories and a lot more protein and drink a lot more water during the season to stay healthy from development to muscle mass to immunity to brain development, etc.

How many wrestlers do you know that eat and drink more DURING the season.

[DocWrestling]

No matter what you do or change, there will always be individuals who choose to cut weight. What needs to happen is a cultural change in the wrestling community. A change in which parents and coaches are more involved and educated on proper nutrition and work out programs. A change in which kids are encouraged to eat healthy and build strength and not worry about what a number on a scale says. Mat side weigh-ins will not stop an individual from cutting weight. Parents need to be active in their kids nutrition and encourage what weight class to be at. As well as coaches need to be willing and encourage kids to be at an appropriate weight class " lower is not always better."  There can be only so many tools put in place to try and help protect the kids. Above that it's on the kid, parents, and coaches.

I would be interested to know statistics on if any wrestlers skin fold under the percentage needed for parents permission. Could a change possibly be made to the current standard ( 5% permission, 7% no permission if memory serves correctly?) to say 7% permission needed 8% and above no permission, or would that start to rule kids out?

I agree 100% but truth is that in most cases going to a lighter weight class and cutting weight correlates to more wins because the system is set up to reward those that do.  You are a parent and care or even a coach.  Your son weighs 125 easily and naturally so you choose 126.  Many of the wrestlers he will wrestle weigh 140 in summer and weigh 133 on Mondays.  They are going to cut and when you wrestle them in the finals they will weigh 133 and your son will weigh 125.  Mat side weigh-ins would make it fair.

[T.Vieau]

in regards to health and weight and putting it simply.

Every doctor would tell any athlete heading into a wrestling season that with those hard workouts you must eat more calories and a lot more protein and drink a lot more water during the season to stay healthy from development to muscle mass to immunity to brain development, etc.

How many wrestlers do you know that eat and drink more DURING the season.

Doc that goes directly to my point. If educated correctly a kid can eat more and still maintain a weight class and be healthy if they are choosing the correct foods. Example: Logan Steiber spoke of his nutrition last year at the NCAA championships. On a regular basis he was eating fruits, vegetables, steak, and sweet potatoes. If a kid is working hard in the room he will be able to eat more and be healthy with the right foods and maintain a healthy appropriate weight class.