Reduction of weights argument

[DocWrestling]

I am not saying the team should not travel together.  Aboslutely the team should travel together no matter how many the other team has.

[DocWrestling]

D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

[aarons23]

D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

In the CLC ....which is division three......two teams 14, two teams 13, one team 12 and one team 7.... There's that one team that brings down the average.  You cut yo 12 weight classes and two teams will lose two wrestlers two teams 1 the team with twelve stands the chance of loosing two depending on where there roster falls, heck the team with 13 could even loose two depending on where there roster falls.  The ln one who stand to gain is the one with 7.... But that's not even a guarantee ......oh yeah...you also stand the chance of making the two teams with 14 even stronger.....how does that help anyone!

[DocWrestling]

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

I figured that was coming but we are talking multiple conference with similar numbers.   Having two teams in an entire conference with 14 wrestlers can also distort the numbers.  The point is there are the really good numbers and the really bad numbers but the great majority of wrestling teams fall in the middle ground.

It still makes the point that if those are the numbers for the biggest HS in the state, what are D2 and D3 schools up against..  Our HS has more boys in it than any D2 or D3 has totals students granted we do offer a lot more sports programs and extracurricular activities.

[ramjet]

D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

The NLC was pretty spread out with equally low numbers but heck lets m look at D1 schools they have hundreds to draw from still short wrestlers but they all stink at recruitment?

[aarons23]

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

I figured that was coming but we are talking multiple conference with similar numbers.   Having two teams in an entire conference with 14 wrestlers can also distort the numbers.  The point is there are the really good numbers and the really bad numbers but the great majority of wrestling teams fall in the middle ground.

It still makes the point that if those are the numbers for the biggest HS in the state, what are D2 and D3 schools up against..  Our HS has more boys in it than any D2 or D3 has totals students granted we do offer a lot more sports programs and extracurricular activities.

You should be asking yourself why a school your size struggles with numbers when schools much smaller than you like Coleman, a Random Lake ,Stratford and Wittenburg are making it work.  I agree your school has more problems than just recruiting...but cutting weight classes is not going to help.

[neutral]

If 14 is good then 20 would be much better

Lets also change Football to 14 and basketball to 14 starters, after all it's about participation.

Chuck

Good to see that (as a referee) you're so objective.  Disappointing for an official to not recognize the difference between team play & team sports.

There is a reason football & basketball have 11 & 5 players on the field/floor at the same time (respectfully) ... design of the game.

This is not football or basketball ... better learn to deal with it!  Football & basketball can take a kid who's not a varsity starter & give him some varsity time.  We can't take a kid who's worked hard but can't beat the starter ... and give him the last 30 seconds of the 3rd period.

I realize 14 is not a magic number - but neither is any other number I've heard discussed on this topic in the past ... (9, 10, 11, 12, or 13).

I don't like that there have to be FFs - but, except for specific team score - IMO ... they don't affect a lot of dual outcomes (again, the strong get stronger too if you eliminate weight classes) ... & they don't affect individual tournaments brackets at all ... except team scores (& except for those who are concerned about the entertainment value of their admission fee).  How many times do you estimate the BYE beats the higher seed ... or how much better entertaiment do you consider a lop-sided pin or tech fall than a FF.  Heck, by Doc's account coaches should love 'em ... because things move along faster.

JV competition does need to be improved to the point that reward for paticipation is enticing enough to improve numbers & retain experienced wrestlers - but, again, when our sport has a problem retaining accomplished wrestlers from grade school into HS ... don't tell me the solution is elimination of weight classes - it's about culture.  

Unless there is a youth program that emphasizes the right kind & amount of participation ... and a coaching staff & community with a passion for wrestling - meaningful JV will not be sustainable ... no matter what you do to create it.  As much as everybody hates to hear it - it's a matter of coaches, parents, and kids recruiting ... building a team atmosphere ... and networking with like-minded schools /communities to support a system of sustainable multi-level competition.  You can't legislate it.  

[aarons23]

D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

The NLC was pretty spread out with equally low numbers but heck lets m look at D1 schools they have hundreds to draw from still short wrestlers but they all stink at recruitment?

Simple answer.....yes!  It takes different kind of recruiting kids today.  It takes getting into the middle schools and high schools and building relationships with kids.  Many guys are great coaches....build great relationships with their guys.....but that's not getting more guys in the room.  Working hand and hand with football coach, helping get wrestling people in teachers positions, principals ADs, etc.  bottom line ......every school isn't going to be great at wrestling....local priorities may be different....that's ok!  But don't try to bring the other schools down to that level.  

[DocWrestling]

The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

[aarons23]

The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

No it's is not part of the answer to building programs.....it's a bandaide that doesn't even help in most situations and will lead to the eventual loss of programs.

[nutman]

There are ebs and flows with everything.  There are two ways to approach this.  Increasing numbers or decreasing weight classes.  We can do better than this.  Let's not cut weight classes.   Don't punish the teams that get kids out for the sport, organize the off-season, and have a full line-up.  The best programs in the state have studs two or three deep.  Reducing weight classes takes one or more  of them out of making it to state.  In anything in life, we should always base our decisions based on what the best think.   Work to increase quantity by getting more kids interested and get better quality by getting more kids to do Greco and Freestyle.    

Finally, we should not make recommendations based on our perceptions.  Here are some facts from the NWCA:  


SCHOLASTIC WRESTLING (DATA PROVIDED BY NATIONAL HIGH SCHOOL FEDERATION OF ASSOCIATIONS)  
•Scholastic wrestling ranks 6th of all boys' sports in terms of participation at the high school level with over 270,000 nation-wide. (Total Male Participation - Total Male Participation Graph)
•Record number of boy's teams at 10,488
•Since 1994, the number of women who wrestle in high school has grown from 804 to 8727. (Total Female Participation - Total Female Participation Graph)
•California, Guam, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Texas, and Washington sponsor a girl's state high school championship
•Since 2002-03, the number of high school wrestlers has grown by over 40,000.  
•In 2008/09, 42 new wrestling programs were established in Arkansas and the Arkansas High School Athletic Association became the 49th state to sanction a high school state wrestling championship currently, Mississippi is the only state that does not.
•The Cadet/Junior National Championships is the largest wrestling tournament in the world (over 3600 entries).

[aarons23]

The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

I also stated that North Shore isn't a great wrestling conference....but from even two years ago they have improved....and will keep improving...how doe reducing weight classes help that out?  So Port and Cedarburg get to make their line ups stronger and the rest are praying weight alignments allow them to wrestle the wrestlers that would have been able to with 14.... Chances are those weight alignments will help maybe 50% of the teams that can not fill the classes now....and will hurt the rest.  

[DocWrestling]

The North shore as a whole seems to be on the upswing while the FVA seems to be on a downturn outside as a whole outside of Kaukauna but even within conferences you have teams on the upswing and teams on the downswing.  The teams that keep it going are pretty amazing.

[aarons23]

The teams that keep it going are pretty amazing.

This should be the discussion.....what are these teams doing?  Not cutting weight classes!

[jaguarwrestler]

reducing weights won't bring more wrestlers to a conference tournament... it will bring less

Imagine a Christmas tournament with 30-40 teams... you eliminate 2 weights that is potentially 60-80 wrestlers... that is like 4 or 5 full teams worth of wrestlers... you think they won't take a big hit in fans and concession/ticket sales? How many less would be at the state tournament if you took out 80 wrestlers? If each wrestler accounts for 4 fans that is 320 less fans over 5 sessions...

I just don't get why we try to figure out how to reduce weights, why don't we spend more time to up participation with 8th grade inclusion, JV inclusion at the end of season, more triple duals or duals before college matches, less tournaments, get rid of conference (they wrestle each other enough) get rid of Regionals... promote the sport, make it more exciting.

Imagine Stoughton and Deforest dual before a Badger meet... you don't think more fans will be at their meet plus the Badger meet? It is a win/win an it promotes the sport.