Reduction of weights argument

[Ghetto]

I preface this thread with a few things: I love high school wrestling. I want it to be better. I don't have all the answers and don't profess to. I am not against any size of kid, and don't want to take away opportunities from anyone to participate in the sport I love.

That said, I have come to the belief that there are too many weights in wrestling. The numbers consistently show this, yet we consistently ignore it. I know there will be arguments that say that regional numbers are not the best way to determine things, but it is the only real data I can get my hands on. I have emailed both Tritz at Trackwrestling and the WIAA for the body fat data, and for some reason, have been denied. Though I would argue that the data they would give would only give argument to what the weights would be, and not how many.

Here goes:(apologies for the formatting)

First, an interesting fact: Of the 48 regionals for all three divisions this season,  5 had more than 50% of the teams with 13 or 14 kids on the roster.

Teams with 12 or less kids on the regional roster over time (goes in order D1, D2, D3)

2014     54.1%         61.5%     74.3%
2013     56.7%         61.9%     76.9%
2012     49.2%         61.2%     67.6%
2011     62.5%         64.4%        (Somehow lost this number?)
2010     50.7%         54.3%     64.4%
2009     50.8%         57.0%     72.9%
2008     45.7%         61.5%     70.4%
2007     48.4%         57.8%     69.2%
2006     38.6%         55.0%     69.4%
2005     46.4%         56.9%     66.7%

AVG      50.3%         59.2%     70.2%

[ramjet]

The biggest argument that I see people trying to make against a reduction in weights is this;

"This will take away opportunity from some kids to go to the State tournament if you reduce weights."

Funny when they realigned weights that happened and few argued unless their kid was effected.

Well You can reduce weights and add one place from each weight class that will more than keep the opportunity there for the kids to make the State Tournament.

For example; Realign the weights to coincide with College and then add to the 4th place in D3 Sectionals 5th place at the D1 level for State Qualification and you actually pick up opportunity.

[MHSfan]

We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

[ramjet]

Yes and open JV up to 8th grade and you will increase opportunities.

[bfboy]

Yes and open JV up to 8th grade and you will increase opportunities.

Ram, I love that idea.  It's a version of JHI, but yet doesn't throw an 8th grader in against a senior.  This might also increase the number of JV tournaments throughout the state. 

[Scooter67]

I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

[DocWrestling]

The only lost opportunities are when a team is lost and a co-op is formed and that is going to continue to happen unless changes are made.  Everyone can make cases and examples by using the top 10% and bottom 10% but it is the middle 80% that the rules and system should look to maximize.  I think we will see more co-ops and even conferences dropping wrestling.  AD's don't want to be the bad guy but if they get together and the whole conference does it they just blame everyone else.  Maybe D1 and D3 do not have to have the same system rules and if so allow a D3 team to move up a division.

You need a JV to have a varsity because you need a place to development and you need back-ups.  Just adding junior high kids to the JV is not a great solution but I would like to see 8th graders allowed to wrestle JV.

[ramjet]

The only lost opportunities are when a team is lost and a co-op is formed and that is going to continue to happen unless changes are made.  Everyone can make cases and examples by using the top 10% and bottom 10% but it is the middle 80% that the rules and system should look to maximize.  I think we will see more co-ops and even conferences dropping wrestling.  AD's don't want to be the bad guy but if they get together and the whole conference does it they just blame everyone else.  Maybe D1 and D3 do not have to have the same system rules and if so allow a D3 team to move up a division.

You need a JV to have a varsity because you need a place to development and you need back-ups.  Just adding junior high kids to the JV is not a great solution but I would like to see 8th graders allowed to wrestle JV.

First off we are on the same page with JV.

But Co-Op the Opportunity is still their in fact it is increased because instead of only 5 kids in room you have 12-13-14 and the training quality and practice parters is increased therefore better development now sure you may have to compete but the opportunity is there.

[ramjet]

I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights and have the skill levels to compete at higher weights so they have the Opportunity to advance if they put the work into it. the younger ones at the lower weights how about wrestle JV increase the opportunities there so they can develop instead of throwing them to the wolves if they cannot compete with the wolves?

If you cut Varsity weight classes and "force" the schools to develop JV programs that opens far more opportunities and wrestling for EVERYONE. Now throw in 8th grade inclusion and you have the workings of some really fun wrestling.

Want to have JV State go ahead thats OK even better I guess. But increase JV tournaments and wrestling gets better overall and participation numbers increase statewide.

[aarons23]

I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights and have the skill levels to compete at higher weights so they have the Opportunity to advance if they put the work into it. the younger ones at the lower weights how about wrestle JV increase the opportunities there so they can develop instead of throwing them to the wolves if they cannot compete with the wolves?

If you cut Varsity weight classes and "force" the schools to develop JV programs that opens far more opportunities and wrestling for EVERYONE. Now throw in 8th grade inclusion and you have the workings of some really fun wrestling.

Want to have JV State go ahead thats OK even better I guess. But increase JV tournaments and wrestling gets better overall and participation numbers increase statewide.

Cutting 106 would be terrible for the sport....let's not forget that the person who started this thread also believes this years 106 class is the deepest weight all the way through.  Your argument about freshman/ sophomore just doesn't hold water with me.  I don't care what grade they are in....the lower weights are the kids who really don't have any other viable options for sports....these are the kids that work there tails off because it's "their" sport.  That's what makes this sport so great.....everyone can compete. 

I go back to the question of which wrestlers do not belong at state this year?  It's easy to say yeah we want less weight classes....but when you have to put a name next to those who you think should lose out...it's not so easy.  And yes...high school is about opportunity and experience....and what better experience than wrestling at the kohls center!

[ramjet]

So you think not one of those 106 lbers is cutting weight to get there?

Answer honestly.......

Those who know or have 106 lber are they doing any cutting to get to or maintain 106? Can they eat what they want when they want to and stay at 106?

Want to find out about 106 lbers check the height of those competing at 106 5'-8" at 106 are skinny not little. Several of the 106 lber at Shawano yesterday were pretty tall kids looked really skinny. So I wonder how many of those really little guys are 106?

[aarons23]

We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

Yes we need better recruiting.....have to be creative sometimes with society today.  I'm willing to bet that you have several 220# kids in the school???heck Random Lake a school of what 300?   Had two 220 and 2 heavy weights.  Even if you don't have kids that size what are you suggesting? Cutting the two biggest weight classes?  While that may help your team temporarily what about the teams who have these weights but miss kids at 170 and 189?  Do we then cut those two classes?  How do you think cutting the heavier weight classes affects relationship with recruiting football players?

[ramjet]

We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

Yes we need better recruiting.....have to be creative sometimes with society today.  I'm willing to bet that you have several 220# kids in the school???heck Random Lake a school of what 300?   Had two 220 and 2 heavy weights.  Even if you don't have kids that size what are you suggesting? Cutting the two biggest weight classes?  While that may help your team temporarily what about the teams who have these weights but miss kids at 170 and 189?  Do we then cut those two classes?  How do you think cutting the heavier weight classes affects relationship with recruiting football players?

Recruiting yea nobody does that already  JV increase in opportunity for JV will grow the sport just like youth programs but JV is more important. Not every school has the resources that D1 schools do yet you have forfeits in D1 al the time. Heck some the strongest programs around are D2 and D3 they have development programs like JV and reserve and community involvement and support.

[aarons23]

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

[jaguarwrestler]

I would ask....

how does it improve the sport to cut weights?

who does it help?

pretend we cut 2 weights, how does it help those teams with 8 or less wrestlers?

why do we take data from end of the year? at this point kids are injured, not eligible or have quit for whatever reason... is it a true measure?

how does it help the state tournament?

how does it help the team tournament?

how does it help any tournament during the season?

how does it help dual meets?

I would argue it helps nothing.... except one thing... it makes weights stronger because it stacks more kids in less weights... but it does almost nothing to help teams, for every team it may help it will hurt others and then you will always have half the teams it does nothing for because they only field 3-9 wrestlers every year

what do other sports do? I mean year in and year out the best football teams are about the same and the worst are about the same... should we make it 8 on 8 to help those that can't build a program? That is what it comes down to, the program... some school stink at wrestling but are great at basketball or softball or whatever...

I say if your looking to stack the weights then eliminate a weight or 2, if your looking to make average teams better I think your wasting your time