Per Willie Saylor(Flowrestling) on Twitter: Was told by sources that NFHS was having a meeting and moving in the direction of reducing weights. That meeting was about a month ago and PIAA just said they want to go 12 with or without NFHS adopting.
what are they thinking for the weights?
It would be a shame if they eliminated weight classes. I used to be in the camp to bring it down to 12 weight classes because that is what the regional numbers showed. But after closely watching the top teams and the bottom teams in the state for many years it became apparent that no matter how many fewer weight classes you have the bottom teams won't be any better. Consequently you will now punish the best teams in the state that have the best top to bottom lineup/kids in the state and take away varsity spots for those kids. That would be a shame to take away a varsity spot from a Stoughton, Mukwonago, Ellsworth, Freedom, Stratford, Fennimore. Just so a lesser team can feel better about themselves because with only 12 weight classes they are now only forfeiting 2 classes instead of 4 and can be more competitive in duals. Meanwhile a very talented kid (from a top ranked team) who has been in the sport probably his whole life is now without a varsity spot because his spot has been eliminated. Promote the sport, work harder to recruit kids. It is not the top teams fault that certain programs fail. Chad Steldt built a powerhouse within a couple of years and has maintained it in middle of nowhere Fennimore. If it can be done there it can be done anywhere. You just need to find the right coach and find the right people to help you build it. Stop taking away from the programs that work the hardest.
Opportunity is not lost or does not have to be lost.
12 top wrestlers for varsity. Competition is a good thing.
Increase JV opportunities and development.
Competition breeds perfection.
Development results better technique and increased experience at a pace that guarantees higher quality.
Participation trophies ruin the sport.
Quote from: ramjet on May 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Opportunity is not lost or does not have to be lost.
12 top wrestlers for varsity. Competition is a good thing.
Increase JV opportunities and development.
Competition breeds perfection.
Development results better technique and increased experience at a pace that guarantees higher quality.
Participation trophies ruin the sport.
You are completely wrong. Denying kids who their whole life have put the time and the work in to earn a varsity spot for a high level team is wrong. Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual??? It has nothing to do with a participation trophy. If anything the lesser teams are the ones that are putting in the effort that would earn them a participation trophy. I am sure the two kids on the Mukwonago team who were former state qualifiers who couldn't crack the lineup this year had no problems with their technique and their development was just fine over the years. Now take two more kids out of that lineup and show me how that is more equitable and creating wrestling opportunities. Those kids don't need to be jv. What needs to happen is that teams that can't field a full lineup need to quit complaining and get working. Call it what it is.
How would wrestling survive with only 12 weights?
I am wondering how basketball can still be played with only 5 players on the court at a time? There are kids that have been working hard their whole life and some "varsity" kids play only a few minutes a game. Basketball has full JV and freshman (or JV2) teams too.
Part of the issue in wrestling is we do not have JV teams. So in wrestling it is varsity or bust. Few, if any, JV dual tournaments because few teams can field a varsity team much less a JV team. In many communities a JV wrestler is viewed as a non-varsity wrestler. A sophomore starter on the JV basketball team is viewed as a future varsity player. Not that I am in favor of reducing to 10 weights, but without that, how does JV team wrestling in Wisconsin ever happen?
Quote from: downtown on May 22, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual???
I hope this was not meant to sound the way it came across. Just because a team is not filling all weight classes doesn't mean they don't work just as hard as a team that does.
Quote from: downtown on May 22, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Quote from: ramjet on May 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Opportunity is not lost or does not have to be lost.
12 top wrestlers for varsity. Competition is a good thing.
Increase JV opportunities and development.
Competition breeds perfection.
Development results better technique and increased experience at a pace that guarantees higher quality.
Participation trophies ruin the sport.
You are completely wrong. Denying kids who their whole life have put the time and the work in to earn a varsity spot for a high level team is wrong. Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual??? It has nothing to do with a participation trophy. If anything the lesser teams are the ones that are putting in the effort that would earn them a participation trophy. I am sure the two kids on the Mukwonago team who were former state qualifiers who couldn't crack the lineup this year had no problems with their technique and their development was just fine over the years. Now take two more kids out of that lineup and show me how that is more equitable and creating wrestling opportunities. Those kids don't need to be jv. What needs to happen is that teams that can't field a full lineup need to quit complaining and get working. Call it what it is.
I can tell you with 100% confidence that there are kids in the Mukwonago room who are wrestling JV who would be varsity on probably 90% of the teams in the state. Let's say 80% to be fair. They seem to survive. They also don't quit. I am always in awe of what their program does. That said, it's about more than just that one team. Someone did this on Twitter with the "which of these hammers shouldn't be a state champion" argument.
It takes a village. Mukwonago has coaches at every level committed to sticking with the program years after their kids are gone. Some didn't even have kids in the program. That is a rare group of men they have there.
If the argument is that teams just aren't working hard, then 60% of the teams in D1 are not. Almost 80% of the D3 teams. Do we really think that? We think that 80% of the coaches in D3 aren't working hard?
When this happens, remember who keeps bringing it up year after year. ;)
You are dead on. There are places where even Dan Gable could not build a winning program (that is if you measure winning by duals). There are many different ways to measure success.
Quote from: wrestlersdad on May 23, 2019, 09:58:38 AM
Quote from: downtown on May 22, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual???
I hope this was not meant to sound the way it came across. Just because a team is not filling all weight classes doesn't mean they don't work just as hard as a team that does.
Quote from: downtown on May 22, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Quote from: ramjet on May 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Opportunity is not lost or does not have to be lost.
12 top wrestlers for varsity. Competition is a good thing.
Increase JV opportunities and development.
Competition breeds perfection.
Development results better technique and increased experience at a pace that guarantees higher quality.
Participation trophies ruin the sport.
You are completely wrong. Denying kids who their whole life have put the time and the work in to earn a varsity spot for a high level team is wrong. Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual??? It has nothing to do with a participation trophy. If anything the lesser teams are the ones that are putting in the effort that would earn them a participation trophy. I am sure the two kids on the Mukwonago team who were former state qualifiers who couldn't crack the lineup this year had no problems with their technique and their development was just fine over the years. Now take two more kids out of that lineup and show me how that is more equitable and creating wrestling opportunities. Those kids don't need to be jv. What needs to happen is that teams that can't field a full lineup need to quit complaining and get working. Call it what it is.
I guess we should have made a weight class for every kid who ever worked hard but couldn't beat the varsity guy? Your admission that this could help TEAMS be more competitive shows you know that this is actually a good thing for the sport. The problem is you are concerned more about a few individuals (who still have the opportunity to wrestle for their team) than the overall health and competitiveness of teams.
You mentioned some specific examples. Now... we know that sometimes, in some sports, certain schools due to their past performances get kids who transfer in, and the home-town, hard-worker, gets bumped out of the line up. I haven't ever heard any sympathy for that kid other than "don't like it? work harder, get better, and earn your spot back" . So what's up with the concern with different weight classes?
And, what about this posibility... Kids who transfer to struggling teams? Kids who say, "I want to wrestle varsity and the neighboring team has a weight class I could fit in." Not many people bad-mouth a kid going to a strong program or the strong program from accepting kids (I won't say recruiting but some people might be thinking that), but now, we might have a reverse trend. One that could really benefit programs with fewer kids. One that could breathe some new life into small schools. Is this a bad thing? Will we say that small program shouldn't have those kids? Or will we embrace it as a possible way that reducing weight classes actually helps a struggling program work it's way up the ladder as we have watched happen with larger programs? Success can breed success.
If they reduce the weight classes then the kids to suffer the most will be the smallest. You can teach technique and strength but you cannot teach a kid to grow. Weight training only can give so much. Also the number of kids being held back will increase.
Quote from: Flates on May 23, 2019, 11:13:29 AM
If they reduce the weight classes then the kids to suffer the most will be the smallest. You can teach technique and strength but you cannot teach a kid to grow. Weight training only can give so much. Also the number of kids being held back will increase.
So the kids in the lowest weight class will suffer the most? I'm not sure if I follow. Or are you saying that our lower weight classes will be cut? Well, that is a possibility, as it could be for a higher weight class. For sure this could create more competition among various teams. Some schools seem to always be loaded at the bottom. Some loaded at the top. Some in the middle and are weaker at bottom and top.
They always look to cut the lowest. The 106 and 113 pounders will now be folded into 108. Kids who struggle to reach 106 now have to go to 108 with 113 pounders. I know of sophomores and juniors who are below 106. Why not get rid of 220 and decrease heavyweight ceiling.
Quote from: downtown on May 22, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Quote from: ramjet on May 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Opportunity is not lost or does not have to be lost.
12 top wrestlers for varsity. Competition is a good thing.
Increase JV opportunities and development.
Competition breeds perfection.
Development results better technique and increased experience at a pace that guarantees higher quality.
Participation trophies ruin the sport.
You are completely wrong. Denying kids who their whole life have put the time and the work in to earn a varsity spot for a high level team is wrong. Just so teams who don't work as hard don't have to look foolish in a dual??? It has nothing to do with a participation trophy. If anything the lesser teams are the ones that are putting in the effort that would earn them a participation trophy. I am sure the two kids on the Mukwonago team who were former state qualifiers who couldn't crack the lineup this year had no problems with their technique and their development was just fine over the years. Now take two more kids out of that lineup and show me how that is more equitable and creating wrestling opportunities. Those kids don't need to be jv. What needs to happen is that teams that can't field a full lineup need to quit complaining and get working. Call it what it is.
Nobody would be denied an opportunity they have the same opportunity as anyone else on the roster.
Yes teams need to recruit better.
PIAA board of directors passes provision to push for reduction in number of wrestling weight classes
Updated May 22, 8:05 PM; Posted May 22, 8:04 PM
By Dustin Hockensmith | dhockensmith@pennlive.com
The PIAA board of directors on Wednesday afternoon passed a provision to petition the National Federation of State High School Associations in 2020 if the national body's rules committee does not reduce the number of wrestling weight classes from 14 to 12 for the 2020-'21 academic year.
The PIAA will request a three-year pilot program in that case to drop the number of weights, citing an increase in forfeits in the lower weights. The lightest weight class is currently 106 pounds, but would be raised to 110, which marks the biggest change under the PIAA proposal.
The 12 weight classes would be the following:
110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285
The 14 weight classes as they exist now are:
106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285
"We've had a couple years to look at it and probably next year will be the third, maybe the fourth, that these weight classes have seen an increasing number of forfeits in the lower weights," PIAA executive director Robert Lombardi said. "We think our proposal is a better distribution than 14 and cuts down the number of forfeits and make dual meets more pleasing to fans and to coaches."
Neither the NFHS nor the PIAA is expected to bring the subject to a formal vote until April 2020, at which point the organizations will have an opportunity to reassess their plans with the benefit of another season worth of data. If the NFHS doesn't act and reduce the number of weights nationwide, the PIAA would step in and make its request for a pilot program.
The PIAA also passed a proposal to reduce the number of junior high weight classes from 18 to 15 at its Wednesday afternoon meeting, as well as a change that would allow varsity programs to enter a second wrestler in the same weight class in tournaments with nine or more teams.
The idea to address the number of forfeits in duals comes at the expense of fewer wrestlers getting opportunities to compete in the individual postseason. Not only that, but fewer spots in the starting lineup will mean fewer varsity matches throughout the dual season as well.
That's especially true in the lower weights, where high school athletes continue to get bigger, stronger and faster, Lombardi said. The lightest weight class in high school wrestling has risen over the years from 95 to 98 to 103 to 106 and now to 110 if the PIAA gets its wish in 2020.
Lombardi said the PIAA feels comfortable with the number of postseason opportunities available to wrestlers with Pennsylvania's 20-man brackets.
"We feel that we have more than enough opportunities because of our expanded 20-person bracket that anybody worth their salt will have a chance to go in," he said. "We have also noticed that kids are bigger stronger and faster than they've ever been by better training techniques, so I'm not sure if some of our very low weights help us compared to where the growth of the athletes is going."
The reduction in opportunities for younger and lighter wrestlers was the biggest complaint among coaches. As it is now, wrestling is one of the few sports that allows a 100-pound freshman to rank among the elite in the state, which continues to be jeopardized by raising the lowest weight class, Northern Lebanon coach Rusty Wallace Jr. said.
"We keep raising that lower weight, and it makes it harder and harder and harder for those kids to compete in ninth and 10th grade," Wallace said. "I think that's why we see kids held back when they're younger so they have time to grow. I think that's only going to increase."
Cedar Cliff's Rob Rapsey runs a program that consistently churns out strong numbers and is competitive up and down its roster. The Colts have had ample options and lineup flexibility in winning back-to-back District 3 team championships, so their issue might be in trying to squeeze kids into fewer lineup spots.
Still, from Rapsey's vantage point, there's at least an equal problem at the top end of the weight spectrum, where the lone change is dropping the 220-pound class to 215.
"If we're going to shrink it down, why do we essentially still have two heavyweights?" Rapsey said. "The more I talk to people, it's not the lower weights, it's the upper weights."
Rapsey said he also believed the PIAA proposal was the equivalent to caving in to national trends on participation, as opposed to working harder to address them at their roots.
"I know some of the numbers might not be there, and maybe I just don't agree with the fact you have to try and work harder in these situations than cave," he said. "This feels like caving."
The PIAA says it has data that suggests forfeits are on the rise, particularly in the lower weights, and is pushing to be on the forefront of a big change. The sport still faces questions about participation and can't solve all that ails it with one swing of the gavel, but this is a move that takes the sport in the right direction, Red Land's Brian Baglio said.
"This is in the right direction," Baglio said. "I'm OK with it at the end of the day when you add up the pros and cons. Not everybody is going to be happy, but we have a year to play with it and tweak it. It's a good step for Pennsylvania to take the lead, see a problem, and say, 'Hey, we want to go here. Come with us — here's what data says — or we're going to do it ourselves.'"
Just to be clear on the working harder comment. I absolutely think that the top teams in the state work harder than the middle to the bottom teams in the state as a whole program. How could you not think that objectively. Don't think about it emotionally think about it rationally. When you go to state freestyle and Greco it is almost exclusively the top 50-100 programs in the state that are sending kids to wrestle in this from youth to high school. There are some outliers but the vast majority are kids from the same 50-100 schools. That is why when you look over the high school brackets very few of the brackets are even a 32 man bracket. The reason is because these communities head coach and club pushes off season wrestling (freestyle/Greco). These are also the same programs that you can go to open mats at their locations, have freestyle/Greco tournaments before state, see whole teams go to summer camps together. Plain and simple their program is working harder than other programs as a whole. Like Ghetto said Mukwonago has coaches in their program that are still there after their kids go through. If you don't have that in your program than you are being outworked by them (very few teams have this). That is why they were the state runners up in D 1 this year. Because it was important to them, and many individuals were willing to put in more work than other communities. Fennimore didn't win state this year because they just really, really wanted to. Their kids wrestle all the time! If you have ever been around a truly great program you will understand how hard everyone works and how much effort it takes to be a truly great team. You don't just get lucky.
That being said. I don't think for a second that kids all over the state aren't working hard in their own wrestling room as other kids are. No matter if you are on the state championship team or a team that only has 4 kids in the room. Wrestling is a brutal, vicious sport that anyone who can make it through a season is a true competitor no matter what your record or status is on jv or varsity.
I just think cutting weight classes is an awful idea that is meant to punish the best teams and the kids on those teams.
As for kids who transfer schools, I have no problem with that. If you are a family that wrestling is very important to you but the school that you go to doesn't put forth much effort into the program than yes you should be allowed to open enroll. I would just like to see it prior to high school age. But I do think it sucks bad when a kid who is the homegrown kid get bumped out of the lineup. Having a good team isn't the same as filling all the weight classes.
Quote from: Numbers on May 23, 2019, 01:10:19 PM
The 12 weight classes would be the following:
110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285
The 14 weight classes as they exist now are:
106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285
PA did not ask me but I would prefer:
108,116,124,131,138,145,152,160,170,185?,215,285
Getting rid of the lowest weight class or bumping it up to 110 is not the answer. If this happens you will see an incredible amount of kids quitting in 7th, 8th, and 9th grade. There has to be a place for the smaller kids to compete as Freshman and Sophomores. Where do the junior and senior 126,132,138,145 pounders usually start their careers? At 106 and 113. Eric Barnett was at 106 both years. That's just one of thousands of examples I could use. If this were to happen,I guarantee about 5 years later we will see a ton of forfeits at 126,132, 138, etc because the upper classmen that would normally fill those weights won't be there because they'll have quit years earlier. Then what would we do? Eliminate the 126, 132?
This sport has always been the one that the smaller kid could compete in. If you eliminate the lower weight class it would devastate the participation numbers Guaranteed! I think a better option would be to let 8th graders wrestle at the high school. That would get the smaller kids excited about wrestling in high school. Getting rid of the lowest classes will deter them from wrestling in HS.
Full disclosure, I am a middle school coach. I have several 8th graders this year that are under 100lbs. They are worried about not being big enough for 106. My guess is a couple will quit because of that. Bumping the weight up to 110 would make them ALL quit.
I could go on and on but I'll spare everyone ;). For what it's worth, here's my 12 weight class suggestions:
105, 115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 195, 210, 285
With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger
Quote from: Jimmy on May 23, 2019, 04:00:53 PM
With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger
[/quote
I agree, but nutrition, weight lifting etc have nothing to do with genetics. It's not a mentality, it's genetics. Some kids are just small and it's not because they want to be. Let's be honest, how many 7th, and 8th graders are going to dedicate themselves to nutrition and weight lifting to get to 110 if they only weight 93lbs. My guess is not many.
As I said in my previous post... if we get rid of the lower weight class the smaller kids will quit in droves, and in 5 years we will start seeing forfeits at 126,132, & 138 because the kids that would normally fill those weights as juniors and seniors won't be there because they will have quit years earlier. It will just snowball from there. I truly believe this would kill the sport. All we need to do is let the 8th graders compete at the HS.
Quote from: Fish on May 23, 2019, 04:21:14 PM
As I said in my previous post... if we get rid of the lower weight class the smaller kids will quit in droves, and in 5 years we will start seeing forfeits at 126,132, & 138 because the kids that would normally fill those weights as juniors and seniors won't be there because they will have quit years earlier. It will just snowball from there. I truly believe this would kill the sport. All we need to do is let the 8th graders compete at the HS.
There you go...that makes great sense. Some great wrestlers at these weights in their junior/senior years where the 106 pounders their freshmen year. Just look at the progression of the 106 from 4 years ago. 2016 106 lb weight class at state. I don't think the kids at that weight would have been 126 their freshman year. So sit on the bench? Do any of us feel any of the kids in that bracket should have been on JV that year? But the kids I know in that bracket would have not been a 126 pounder their freshman year.
Wrestling is (in my mind) a sport of diversity. It is the sport that all can participate in. Big, small, short, tall, fast, slow the sport rewards hard work and dedication and if you bring that and a pair of shoes to the mat you can compete.
Yes, easy to add 10% body weight but another thing altogether to add 10% muscle mass.
Quote from: Jimmy on May 23, 2019, 04:00:53 PM
With proper nutrition,weight lifting etc it is very reasonable to add 10% of your body weight each year, plus your natural growth. Time to change the mentality of being too small ,trying to be small. If you need to wreastle jv a yr. while the you build yourself up so be it. You'll be that much tougher when the time comes. Also cutting weight classes will not hurt the fennimores of wi. It will make them stronger
Quote from: Fish on May 23, 2019, 03:44:45 PM
Getting rid of the lowest weight class or bumping it up to 110 is not the answer. If this happens you will see an incredible amount of kids quitting in 7th, 8th, and 9th grade. There has to be a place for the smaller kids to compete as Freshman and Sophomores. Where do the junior and senior 126,132,138,145 pounders usually start their careers? At 106 and 113. Eric Barnett was at 106 both years. That's just one of thousands of examples I could use. If this were to happen,I guarantee about 5 years later we will see a ton of forfeits at 126,132, 138, etc because the upper classmen that would normally fill those weights won't be there because they'll have quit years earlier. Then what would we do? Eliminate the 126, 132?
This sport has always been the one that the smaller kid could compete in. If you eliminate the lower weight class it would devastate the participation numbers Guaranteed! I think a better option would be to let 8th graders wrestle at the high school. That would get the smaller kids excited about wrestling in high school. Getting rid of the lowest classes will deter them from wrestling in HS.
Full disclosure, I am a middle school coach. I have several 8th graders this year that are under 100lbs. They are worried about not being big enough for 106. My guess is a couple will quit because of that. Bumping the weight up to 110 would make them ALL quit.
I could go on and on but I'll spare everyone ;). For what it's worth, here's my 12 weight class suggestions:
105, 115, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, 195, 210, 285
[/quote
I feel that the amount of kids that weigh less than 105 is very slim. Yes, there are some but overall it is difficult to find many high school kids less than 105. The kids making 106 now are probably cutting weight. The ones I know had to cut weight so I think bumping it up to 110 would not hurt that much. I do not think many kids are going to quit simply because you bump the weight from 106 to 110. I think that there are probably other reasons that the wrestlers quit.
I think that the thing hurting our sport is that there are more weight classes than most of the teams have wrestlers. Right now being on varsity in wrestling does not really mean you had to earn at most places. Most kids are just put on varsity because there is no one there. Other sports do not simply give out varsity spots so I think we need to make it more of an meaningful to make the varsity team and allowing the others to develop at the JV level. I almost believe that high school wrestling could even move 10 weight classes especially for duals at least.
All the data we have from the past several years shows the 113 and 220 weights have the fewest numbers of participants on average across all divisions.
I think going to twelve weight classes is a good solution. Not totally for it but I think moving to ten is too drastic. I also think you have to keep the 106 class close to the same. Yes, some kids are cutting to get to 106 but I think you'd be surprised how many are "bulking" to get as close to 106 as possible. If I had a say in the weight classes they would be 106, 114, 122, 130, 138, 150, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285. Think staying close to the same weight classes on the upper weights makes sense and really no big jumps between weights while dropping two classes.
If weight classes are reduced, then it is even more critical to consider team placement in a regional other than geography. There was just a major discussion regarding hot-bed areas of the state. Imagine cutting two weight classes from those areas, this exasperates that issue even more.
It is interesting that we are fighting for more weight classes at the international level and have some advocating for fewer weight classes at the high school level.
A rule of thumb in any organization: "Base decisions on your best." (The contrary is: do not base your decisions on those who are struggling.) If applied to this situation the logic is that schools struggling cannot fill the weight classes, so we will penalize the teams that do. The cream is still going to rise to the top whether there is 12 or 14 classes. The competition level is not going to create more scholarship athletes as those are typically discovered at national level tournaments in the off-season. Also, think about the implication this will have on Fargo and some of the other national tournaments that correspond with the NFHS weight classes. There will be fewer opportunities for wrestlers to be recognized and show-cased.
I'm not sure why we would advocate to take opportunities away from our athletes. Do we think crowning 36 state champs instead of 42 state champs will somehow elevate numbers OR having only 252 place winners versus 216?
Some will also argue that there were fewer weight classes in earlier decades with higher participation rates. Is that because there were fewer weight classes or could it be other factors such as fewer choices for other sports. Could it be the fact that according to the last census there are about 30 million fewer people ages 5-17 compared to those in the age range of 45-55. There is even a wider-gap when comparing the number of Baby Boomers when they were teenagers. If this same logic is applied to football with its plummeting numbers, then everyone should switch to 8-man football to get numbers to increase (Maybe not the same thing but worth considering).
Many of these high school place winners will someday become parents. Do you think they are less likely or more likely to get their son or daughter involved if they had success?
If we want better match-ups to determine the top dog at each weight then let's get more athletes to freestyle and greco state. There is only one division per weight class. For those who were not there, several college coaches, including the Badger Staff were matside watching our best kids. Within an arm's length away in some cases! To take it a step further, our best kids then went a couple of weeks later to Northern Plains and North Carolina to World Team Trials. In a couple of weeks our Cadets will be going to Akron. Then many will go to the national duals and then to Fargo. If the argument is to create better match-ups, there are all kinds of other ways to do that.
Rather than taking away opportunities- Let's promote more opportunities beyond the high school season.
"some kids are cutting to get to 106"....and some kids are cutting to get to 132 and 145 and 170 and 195 and 220. Sorry but this has been a topic on this forum way to often. Kids are cutting weight in wrestling at all weight classes. A kid that weighs 110 lbs is cutting to 106 because he isn't big enough to wrestle the kid cutting from 120 to 113.
Getting rid of weight classes isn't going to change this
Handles II...the data shows 113 and 220 have the fewest number of participants. Great...so get rid of those two weights? Go from 106 to 120? 195 to hwt? Maybe I missed a different post that tied into this comment. I am not sure what you were trying to get at.
Finally Bellytobelly's comment "Right now being on varsity in wrestling does not really mean you had to earn at most places"...this is not unique to wrestling. There are kids starting on football and basketball teams that had no real competition for a varsity spot. Those sports are not cutting positions because they have to put in a below average player into a spot.
Wrestling's answer to lower participation numbers is cut spots. Go back to before the 14 weight classes and people were saying wrestling we should go down to 10 spots. I will lay odds that if the sport drops to 12 weights in two years this forum will have a thread about dropping to 10 spots. Maybe look at some options...combine with another team...go to a tournament only format...promote your product...build the youth movement even more than it is now (WWF is doing a great job in most cases but more could be done from a promotion standpoint).
I can think of no successful business or organization that became successful on the premises of downsizing. Why would wrestling be different?
Great point nutman - there was greater participation in the 80s...we were farm kids and the school had two choices...basketball and wrestling. Now we have basketball, wrestling, hockey, swimming, bowling, curling, etc.
Coaches/schools need to push off season and more than just running a two day a week camp and then not going to the tournament themselves. Off season camps, off season duals, Fargo, Post and Pre Season nationals. There is so much to do. But we need to get the word out and the support of the off season efforts.
one weight class from the upper weights and lower weights should be taken away. The highest weight class before 285 should probably only be about 205. 215 or 220 is to high. 110 is probably pretty good as lowest weight class but I would rather see it maybe at 112. To protect the little guys you get rid of the growth allowance and extra pounds on consecutive days and make guys wrestle that weight 50% of their matches on the season to be eligible to wrestle it in the postseason. To many bigger kids cut down which is what makes it the worst for the little guys.
But...
1) It would be stupid if we did not have different weight classes for JV duals. They should be lighter because JVs are usually younger which makes them smaller. Make 106 the lowest weight class for JV duals
2) There is no reason why we can't have 112 or 113 be the lowest weight class for duals but have a 106 lb weight class for indiviudal tournaments or the state tournament series.
If it was me....
Duals- 11 weight classes
Lightest weight class 113, heaviest weight class before 285 is 200. That is three weight classes. Build the other 8 in between any way you want
Individual tournaments and state- 13 weight classes
Same 11 weights as duals but add 106 and 215.
Subtract 5 lbs from every weight class for JV duals and tournament weight classes
Get rid of all growth pounds and extra pounds for consecutive days and snow days. Must make that weight class every day you wrestle!
Wrestling is changing. All sports are changing. A million reasons.
There are fewer freshman teams in the state in ALL sports.
There are fewer JV teams in the state in ALL sports.
Varsity participation numbers are declining in ALL sports.
These are all generalities that do not fit every school or every sport in your area.
8 man football is growing.
Individual wrestling is doing fine. State tournament remains awesome
Team wrestling is struggling mightily at varsity level much less JV level. Kids, coaches, and parents don't even want to travel to duals half the time because they are a waste of time. Team wrestling needs a change because it is the most important to participation numbers. 90% of wrestlers know they are not going to make it to the individual state tournament but they want to be part of a team.
Data shows that the lowest weight should actually be higher than 110. At least in Wisconsin.
Let's have the first weight class at 120 and take out 220. Then we will be able to just sit back and watch the wrestling numbers grow. ::) ::)
What data shows the lowest weight should be higher than 110?
Have you looked at the CDC growth charts for male youths? To me it shows 103 was plenty high for a starting point.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 24, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Data shows that the lowest weight should actually be higher than 110. At least in Wisconsin.
People really think the number of weight classes has a big impact on number of kids that wrestle?? If so, than THAT is just another part of what is probably the real problem with declining numbers in our sport...and as Doc pointed out, the declining numbers in ALL sports. To me the number one cause of decline in sports participation is the changes in society and what PARENTS teach their kids as to what is important in terms of participation in sports, or not participating in some cases. If PARENTS are teaching their kids that being on varsity or not on varsity is what determines if you participate in a sport causes decline in numbers. If winning or losing is what PARTENTS are teaching their kids in determining to participate in a sport, that causes a decline in numbers. If PARENTS teach their kids that if you work hard, but don't make varsity than they shouldn't participate in a sport, that is a cause in a decline in numbers. I could go on...point being is if we continue to point fingers at number of weight classes, number of divisions, what kids wear when competing, giving rewards to all who participate, etc., instead of looking at what is the really problem...PARENTING...then things will continue to go in the direction they are going for high school sports.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 25, 2019, 06:25:31 AM
What data shows the lowest weight should be higher than 110?
Have you looked at the CDC growth charts for male youths? To me it shows 103 was plenty high for a starting point.Quote from: Ghetto on May 24, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Data shows that the lowest weight should actually be higher than 110. At least in Wisconsin.
Body fat weights from the past 8 years for the state of WI
I saw those posted and I respectfully disagree with your analysis of that data. I am assuming we are recruiting (in the case of the State of Wisconsin), boys from 9th grade to 12th grade. If you use the CDC data for US males, 103 works easily.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 25, 2019, 06:25:31 AM
What data shows the lowest weight should be higher than 110?
Have you looked at the CDC growth charts for male youths? To me it shows 103 was plenty high for a starting point.Quote from: Ghetto on May 24, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Data shows that the lowest weight should actually be higher than 110. At least in Wisconsin.
Body fat weights from the past 8 years for the state of WI
Quote from: MNbadger on May 25, 2019, 05:47:09 PM
I saw those posted and I respectfully disagree with your analysis of that data. I am assuming we are recruiting (in the case of the State of Wisconsin), boys from 9th grade to 12th grade. If you use the CDC data for US males, 103 works easily.Quote from: Ghetto on May 25, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 25, 2019, 06:25:31 AM
What data shows the lowest weight should be higher than 110?
Have you looked at the CDC growth charts for male youths? To me it shows 103 was plenty high for a starting point.Quote from: Ghetto on May 24, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Data shows that the lowest weight should actually be higher than 110. At least in Wisconsin.
Body fat weights from the past 8 years for the state of WI
IF I remember correct, lots of people a year ago got on here and respectfully disagreed with Ghetto's data collection method, for alot of reasons. But hey, he clearly thinks the lower weights should go away and strongly believes in his madness, good for him.
Unintended consequences of eliminiating bottom weights:
1) Elite 95#-110#ers will sit out their freshman year and train with their clubs. Reducing #'s.
2) Elite 95#-110#ers will be on JV as the 120#ers come down to the new weight class. Elite small kids spend their season whooping up on JV kids that never wrestled before. That stunts the progress of the elite small kid and the true JV kid. Discourages both groups going forward.
3) Like someone else said--in a few years you will have a gap at 120-126#.
4) If not universal across all states-eltie kids will move out. Happens already.
5) Entire group of smaller kids now have yet another sport to not go into. That newbie 100# freshman can be a very good 125-132#er in a few years. Many will not go out now, thinking it is not even worth it. Wrestling is a generational sport. We need to capture every kid, cause chances are when they have children, they will wrestle.
But sure, those coaches/schools that can't fill a team, get one less forfeit. Congrats. If the changes occur, I will bet that in DIV I (yes, DIV II/II may be different story), many schools that have rosters of 8-15 kids still will. But hey, they will get one less forfeit now, and still be as unsuccesful.
Wisconsin has so many things that should be done first, and discussed on this forum to death before cutting weight classes happen. I see very little of it going on. But if you really want to cut weight classes, spread out the middle.
For the record, I do not think the lower weights should go away.
My "madness" seems to be a feasible idea in one of the best states for HS wrestling.
If anyone has ideas on how the data should be collected, by all means, speak up.
I've heard the CDC idea. Fire away.
I just wanted to throw a few comments about this. I can tell you both of my sons were under 106 as Freshman. We even held Preston back when he was 4 for various reasons, mostly being small. He as an 8th grader weighed 83 pounds and he should of been a Freshman. Thankfully that extra year was the trick and he grew to be around 103 this past season naturally. Still small and it showed even more at the end.
A few other wrestlers who did not wrestle as Freshman because of being to small. The Koontz boys from Point. Aric Furseth wrestled but was tiny.
To the poster who stated that if you keep raising the lower limit it will ultimately have an effect on the 120-138 range weight classes i absolutely agree!!
We tried changing weights before to 14 which was ridiculous then all for the football player. Had nothing to do with data. Changing to 12 now is an over reach. I would be comfortable going to 13 again.
106
113
120
126
132
138
145
154
164
175
190
215
unlimited
Keep the lowest weights. There are kids that are that small and grow into middle weights. Get rid of the largest since it was only for football kids that aren't even coming out. Removing for small kids basically eliminates them from being able to compete.
Ghetto did not use the CDC data. He did one better. He used the data of the kids who actually went out for wrestling and did the fat test. That makes complete sense. Often it is discussed to just use math each year and have the weight classes change each year based on the kids that actually go out for wrestling and evenly distributing them.
Many of you bring up the small guys and moving up the weight class does affect them but that is 1% of all wrestlers and catering to that 1% may affect the overall sport.
I believe that many kids do just want to wrestle and be part of a team. They have no realistic dreams of making t to state. We need to improve the "team concept" at both varsity and JV if we want to improve numbers. The best teams have the best numbers and they have tons of kids that could wrestle varsity somewhere else but they work had for their turn when maybe they are a senior. They don't quit because they earn it. There are tons of kids that are given a varsity spot at other schools and then quit.
The sport cannot cater to the "elite" wrestlers or simply they will have nobody to wrestle. If you are an elite wrestler probably 80% of your matches are against kids that will never make it to state and are not "elite".
Elite wrestlers at schools with no practice partners do not advance as fast unless they have a coach or club time to supplement practice.
If the sport is better because a small wrestler has to wait until he is a junior to fit a weight class then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first. If a kid weighs 210 and has to wrestle 275 lbers all the time then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first.
And it only has to be unfortunate for all in team duals. Keep 106 and 220 for individual tournaments and state tournaments. So a freshman that weighs 100lbs is to light to wrestle 113 for 8 duals his freshman year. I am sure he will still enjoy wrestling as he grows and he competes in individual tournaments as a freshman.
I would eliminate 106, 220, and spread out the middle weights to lose another weight class and have 11 weight classses for duals. For individual tournaments I would keep the exact same weight classses.
Want to get them bigger? Then get them in a strength and conditioning program. Make it fun. Set goals and allow the athlete to be part of those goals. Getting rid of the small guys weights does nothing but I see the premise behind the data. Everyone needs to work together and contribute. Cutting weight classes allows for better development and higher level competition puts the team back into wrestling at all divisions. JV is important as developmental tool. In the better programs the kids have to compete anyways because of numbers the better wrestler gets the varsity spot. The other wrestler knows they have to improve and get better. This is not a bad thing. If a young athlete quits because they did not make varsity then the issue is much bigger than wrestling itself. There is room for all wrestlers and instead of throwing some kids to the wolves lets develop them over time with the proper teaching and techniques. Measured development makes for better overall experience. When we train young athletes we do not start them with the heaviest equipment. We start with technique and bring them along at a pace that allows for growth and accomplishment. All of them get there at the higher level training, but it takes time patients, goals, desire, sacrifice and hard work and the proper development at a pace they as an individual can sustain.
Quote from: DocWrestling on May 27, 2019, 08:54:25 AM
Ghetto did not use the CDC data. He did one better. He used the data of the kids who actually went out for wrestling and did the fat test. That makes complete sense. Often it is discussed to just use math each year and have the weight classes change each year based on the kids that actually go out for wrestling and evenly distributing them.
Many of you bring up the small guys and moving up the weight class does affect them but that is 1% of all wrestlers and catering to that 1% may affect the overall sport.
I believe that many kids do just want to wrestle and be part of a team. They have no realistic dreams of making t to state. We need to improve the "team concept" at both varsity and JV if we want to improve numbers. The best teams have the best numbers and they have tons of kids that could wrestle varsity somewhere else but they work had for their turn when maybe they are a senior. They don't quit because they earn it. There are tons of kids that are given a varsity spot at other schools and then quit.
The sport cannot cater to the "elite" wrestlers or simply they will have nobody to wrestle. If you are an elite wrestler probably 80% of your matches are against kids that will never make it to state and are not "elite".
Elite wrestlers at schools with no practice partners do not advance as fast unless they have a coach or club time to supplement practice.
If the sport is better because a small wrestler has to wait until he is a junior to fit a weight class then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first. If a kid weighs 210 and has to wrestle 275 lbers all the time then that is unfortunate but the sport has to come first.
And it only has to be unfortunate for all in team duals. Keep 106 and 220 for individual tournaments and state tournaments. So a freshman that weighs 100lbs is to light to wrestle 113 for 8 duals his freshman year. I am sure he will still enjoy wrestling as he grows and he competes in individual tournaments as a freshman.
I would eliminate 106, 220, and spread out the middle weights to lose another weight class and have 11 weight classses for duals. For individual tournaments I would keep the exact same weight classses.
My question at the end of the day is does it "help" the sport? Does cutting weight classes bring in more kids? Are duals really going to be much different? The answer to all those questions is no. And in some cases could hinder the sports numbers as the further we get away from a small weight class the more kids we may deter out of the sport. Whether you care to admit it or not there are some opportunities that are lost. There are kids that maybe aren't varsity ready on teams but thats much of the reason they are out for the sport....nearly every kid in every sport basically wants to be on varsity,
I think every sport is designated for the "elite" athlete otherwise there wouldn't be a state championship.
While it may bring less forfeits I'm not sure it fixes anything.
So with PA going to 12 weights in the future with 110 being the lowest, does anyone know if PA also gives growth allowance pounds the second half of the season?
With growth allowance Wisconsin is at 109 for state so there would not be much of a difference.
Honestly I am not interested in bringing more kids into wrestling. That is very difficult plus we already have plenty doing youth wrestling. The real problem is keeping them in the sport not bringing more into the sport. I do believe that the lack of team competitions hurts the sport. If I am a .500 or less wrestler I would just love a way to compete for my team and help my team. That chance is not there now. 95% of matches wrestled in this state have no affect on anything for the team outcome. Almost every individual tournament has no more than two maybe three teams that can win the title. Everyone also knows who is going to win 95% of the duals. As a .500 wrestler my matches mean nothing so I go and compete for myself at duals and then I go 1-2 at tournaments and I have to sit in the stands for another 6 hours watching my teammates.
Right now wrestling is an individual sport. If that continues to trend we will see fewer and fewer wrestlers. I believe wrestling grows when the team concept grows. There used to be junior high/middle school duals. Gone and numbers have decreased. There used to be JV duals. Gone and numbers have decreased. Now we have 30 minute duals and numbers are decreasing.
Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.
The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.
Quote from: Bellytobelly on May 27, 2019, 08:45:01 PM
Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.
Quote from: Tims on May 26, 2019, 09:49:47 AM
I just wanted to throw a few comments about this. I can tell you both of my sons were under 106 as Freshman. We even held Preston back when he was 4 for various reasons, mostly being small. He as an 8th grader weighed 83 pounds and he should of been a Freshman. Thankfully that extra year was the trick and he grew to be around 103 this past season naturally. Still small and it showed even more at the end.
A few other wrestlers who did not wrestle as Freshman because of being to small. The Koontz boys from Point. Aric Furseth wrestled but was tiny.
To the poster who stated that if you keep raising the lower limit it will ultimately have an effect on the 120-138 range weight classes i absolutely agree!!
We tried changing weights before to 14 which was ridiculous then all for the football player. Had nothing to do with data. Changing to 12 now is an over reach. I would be comfortable going to 13 again.
106
113
120
126
132
138
145
154
164
175
190
215
unlimited
I like something very similar
105
115
Do to the amount of FF at these two weights a little separation should occur.
121
128
136
144
153
164
175
190
210
HWT max of 270 what HS needs to weigh more then 270?
If weights change they are all going to need to change, if we have to go to 12 weights I think the separation should look similar to my post.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 27, 2019, 09:00:21 PM
The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.Quote from: Bellytobelly on May 27, 2019, 08:45:01 PM
Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.
You are still "turning kids away". If you want to say that a kid that is over 285 should have to suck it up and make 285 then a kid that is 100 can suck it up or bulk up and put on muscle to get up to the weight.
Quote from: Bellytobelly on May 27, 2019, 09:05:52 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 27, 2019, 09:00:21 PM
The difference with 285 is that you'd look long and hard to find one that is not technically obese.Quote from: Bellytobelly on May 27, 2019, 08:45:01 PM
Okay so everyone here arguing that we would be denying small kids a weight class by starting at 110, what about the kids we are denying by having the weight limit be 285? I know of a few kids that could not wrestle because of the weight limit and I can imagine that we lose some athletic and talented football players because of this weight limit. My point is that no matter what the weights are they aren't perfect. Saying it's not fair for someone who weighs 100 to wrestle 110 stinks but what can you do because what about the football player that can't wrestle because he weighs 300+ also? There's no perfect answer. There aren't a ton of high schoolers weighing less 106 or 110 naturally so it stinks for those that weigh less but hey if they truly like the sport they aren't going to quit because of being a little lighter.
You are still "turning kids away". If you want to say that a kid that is over 285 should have to suck it up and make 285 then a kid that is 100 can suck it up or bulk up and put on muscle to get up to the weight.
As a parent of a potential HWT I don't think trying to get a kid out obesity and trying to get a tiny kid bigger is the same ask? A 17-18 yr old boy at 6'4 has zero business above 270.
WAY easier to drop the fat. People throw around the term "bulk up". As I pointed out in an earlier post, it is easy to get fat but difficult to add muscle mass.
https://tribhssn.triblive.com/piaa-approves-weight-class-reduction-in-wrestling/
I totally disagree with the coach at the end. It is extremely rare that a casual fan comes to a tournament. They are much more likely to come to a dual.
So it is as simple as asking the national federation to change it?
"The PIAA will advance the proposal to the National Federation of High School Association to see if it will consider the change. If it says no, the PIAA will petition the NFHS to allow the reduction of the weight classes as a pilot program."
On a related side note, I've been exchanging information with a guy from Indiana, who has tracked their FF and participation numbers since 2003.(Participation numbers since 2003, FFs since 2009)
Their highest participation was in 2004- 8945
Their lowest participation was this past year- 6675
In 2009 they had 630 FFs
This past year they had 1014 FFs
Pennsylvania Seeking Switch to 12 Weight Classes
https://news.theopenmat.com
By Clay Sauertieg Posted on 05/24/2019
A massive change could be coming to the world of high school wrestling and it could be coming fairly soon. On Wednesday, the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association control board passed the wrestling committee's proposal to reduce the weight classes from 14 to 12 for the 2020-21 season.
The board will now advance the proposal to the National Federation of State High School Associations in hopes it will approve the change. Should the change be denied, it will ask the NFHS board to allow the PIAA to launch a pilot program that would then be adopted down the line.
As most of you know, the current weight classes are: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220 and 285.
Under the new proposal, the weights in PA would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215 and 285.
The rule intends to limit forfeits in dual meets and to increase fan interest in the sport at lower levels according to Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League wrestling chairman Frank Vulcano Jr. While many have lauded the move for its potential improvements to the sports watchability, it hasn't come without criticism. Many Pennsylvania coaches feel the change will take away opportunities from wrestlers looking to compete and wrestlers who they think could be champions if the weights remain unchanged.
Coach Scott Green of Wyoming Seminary, which is located in PA but not eligible to compete in PIAA postseason events, proposed 11 weights for duals and 15 for individual tournaments as well as multiple entries per weight in the postseason.
Additionally, the proposed changes have led to concern over weight separation and potentially issues with drastic cutting. The lightest weight being 110 has led to many suggesting that it's too heavy and would drastically limit the opportunities of small wrestlers, particularly underclassmen. There's also been concern over the 20-pound jump from 170 to 190, with some saying it would cause wrestlers caught in the middle to cut unhealthy amounts of weight to try to make the lower of the two.
But this wasn't the only proposal. There was also talk of removing the 2-pound allowance given to wrestlers in the middle of the year. The suggestion is due to the notion that rather than making it safer for wrestlers, it incentivizes wrestlers to attempt to cut down to a lower weight class.
The biggest question that now remains, in addition to whether the new proposal will gain favor with the NFHS, is how many states will follow. Currently, most states follow the 14 NFHS weight classes while New York adds a 99-pound division and Michigan uses the old NFHS weights which were changed following the 2010-11 season.
It stands to reason that if the NFHS board approves the new changes that most states will follow, but with the current weight classes only having come into a play less than a decade ago, there's no guarantee.
So what do you think? Do we need a change or are the current classes the best way to go?
https://news.theopenmat.com/high-school-wrestling/pennsylvania-seeking-switch-to-12-weight-classes/73165
So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport. Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction. If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition. Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters. Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity. Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there? That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional. What's needed is a proactive approach... for ALL sports. Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together. Stop being so competitive so darn early. Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first. What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids? Redesign our national sports programs based on that data. Bet we'd get a much better result.
It is rare for a casual fan to come to either.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 27, 2019, 10:02:09 PM
I totally disagree with the coach at the end. It is extremely rare that a casual fan comes to a tournament. They are much more likely to come to a dual.
So it is as simple as asking the national federation to change it?
"The PIAA will advance the proposal to the National Federation of High School Association to see if it will consider the change. If it says no, the PIAA will petition the NFHS to allow the reduction of the weight classes as a pilot program."
On a related side note, I've been exchanging information with a guy from Indiana, who has tracked their FF and participation numbers since 2003.(Participation numbers since 2003, FFs since 2009)
Their highest participation was in 2004- 8945
Their lowest participation was this past year- 6675
In 2009 they had 630 FFs
This past year they had 1014 FFs
I agree with this. I think we are ignoring this and particularly in wrestling we chase our tails and look for problems. Even if it turned out that retraction would make for a few more competitive duals I don't think that justifies cutting out opportunities for small high school athletes.
Participation is down in sports. We should patiently be working on those leaving football. I think the issue of concussions is depressing their numbers in some areas.
I work in a district with a high school of 2600 students. Twenty five years ago we dressed 120 Per game (Yes 120 dressed per game). The last couple of years our fb coaches have been having to recruit players. My middle school has 600 students this past season was the first in three years where we had enough girls to field a basketball team. This year eleven girls, each of the last two we could only get 4 or 5 girls to play.
How difficult do you suppose it is to recruit for wrestling? I am still not in favor of retraction. Heck, if we go to the weights most people suggest, I will actually forfeit a higher percentage of weights than I do now. On top of that we will be no more likely to win any of the duals.
Quote from: imnofish on May 27, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport. Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction. If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition. Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters. Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity. Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there? That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional. What's needed is a proactive approach... for ALL sports. Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together. Stop being so competitive so darn early. Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first. What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids? Redesign our national sports programs based on that data. Bet we'd get a much better result.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 27, 2019, 10:02:09 PM
I totally disagree with the coach at the end. It is extremely rare that a casual fan comes to a tournament. They are much more likely to come to a dual.
So it is as simple as asking the national federation to change it?
"The PIAA will advance the proposal to the National Federation of High School Association to see if it will consider the change. If it says no, the PIAA will petition the NFHS to allow the reduction of the weight classes as a pilot program."
On a related side note, I've been exchanging information with a guy from Indiana, who has tracked their FF and participation numbers since 2003.(Participation numbers since 2003, FFs since 2009)
Their highest participation was in 2004- 8945
Their lowest participation was this past year- 6675
In 2009 they had 630 FFs
This past year they had 1014 FFs
Ghetto I agree with you but the big wrestling influencers all seem to be pushing away from dual events which I think will hurt the viewing aspect of the sport which may hurt the sport more then anything.
Quote from: imnofish on May 27, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport. Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction. If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition. Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters. Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity. Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there? That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional. What's needed is a proactive approach... for ALL sports. Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together. Stop being so competitive so darn early. Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first. What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids? Redesign our national sports programs based on that data. Bet we'd get a much better result.
This is 100% true but can't be fixed. Organizations have tried to do the right things but always some parents that don't listen. Then they start something new and more and others follow to not "be left behind" Parents are the problem, not always the organizations. Imagine if the WIAA did not have season regulations what some of the seasons would look like. Because the WIAA has season regulations we have club sports that take it to the max and year round.
Football is absolutely taking the brunt of the concussion issue. Hockey is now under fire. If wrestling was a popular sport it would be under fire also. All contact sports are affected. No parent scared of their kid playing football is going to say go wrestle. They are going to say go swim or play tennis. Contact sports are contact sports.
I predict the compromise will be fewer weight classes for duals and more for individual tournaments. I think that would be a great balance.
I respectfully disagree. Contact sports are different from collision sports.
Quote from: DocWrestling on May 28, 2019, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: imnofish on May 27, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport. Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction. If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition. Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters. Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity. Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there? That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional. What's needed is a proactive approach... for ALL sports. Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together. Stop being so competitive so darn early. Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first. What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids? Redesign our national sports programs based on that data. Bet we'd get a much better result.
This is 100% true but can't be fixed. Organizations have tried to do the right things but always some parents that don't listen. Then they start something new and more and others follow to not "be left behind" Parents are the problem, not always the organizations. Imagine if the WIAA did not have season regulations what some of the seasons would look like. Because the WIAA has season regulations we have club sports that take it to the max and year round.
Football is absolutely taking the brunt of the concussion issue. Hockey is now under fire. If wrestling was a popular sport it would be under fire also. All contact sports are affected. No parent scared of their kid playing football is going to say go wrestle. They are going to say go swim or play tennis. Contact sports are contact sports.
I predict the compromise will be fewer weight classes for duals and more for individual tournaments. I think that would be a great balance.
Good luck selling this to parents. I coach middle school football and have coached youth wrestling. When speaking with parents, if they have a fear of head injuries they are scared of everything. For the record over the past 15 years I have had more players miss time for concussions due to playground injuries than actual in-sports injuries. Last year through football and wrestling I had two athletes miss time due to concussions and both were injured on playground. Still scared parents are scared parents and like I said in an earlier post you just can't change parents.
Incidence of head injuries in 18 and younger athletes
1) Rugby (4.18/1,000 AE)
2) Ice hockey (1.20/1,000 AE)
3) American football (0.53/1,000 AE)
4) Lacrosse (0.24/1,000 AE)
5) Football (or soccer) (0.23/1,000 AE)
6) Wrestling (0.17/1,000 AE)
7) Basketball (0.13/1,000 AE)
8) Softball & Field Hockey (Tie) (0.10/1,000 AE)
9) Baseball (0.06/1,000 AE)
10) Cheerleading (0.07/1,000 AE)
11) Volleyball (0.03/1,000 AE)
Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2019, 06:22:30 AM
Heck, if we go to the weights most people suggest, I will actually forfeit a higher percentage of weights than I do now. On top of that we will be no more likely to win any of the duals.
This is what I think is being missed in all this.. reducing weight classes does not guarantee that there will be fewer forfeits, and it it certainly doesn't guarantee there will be more matches, which is what I think the goal should be. It will reduce the forfeits in some duals, increase the forfeits in others, and have absolutely no impact on the amount of forfeits in some duals.
Take the proposed weight classes, and apply them to a number of HS duals from this past season where there were a number of forfeits, and see where you think they might be.. challenge is published fat test info is to the weight class, not to the pound, so you have to make some guesses as to what kids would have fat tested for, and you might be inclined to make assumptions about what a kid can get to that are wrong.. The results won't be as dramatic as advocates of fewer weight classes believe.. The only way to have any real impact on the number of forfeits is to stretch out the weight classes on the top and bottom end where there are fewer wrestlers, and probably push the bottom end up a little which will result in lighter wrestlers giving up more weight. This will result in situations where a kid who made 113 being able to make say 110, kid who made 120 making 118, etc., and where there was no 106, this eliminates that forfeit.. there will also be times where the kid who would fat test for 113 does not fat test for 110, so the lowest weight class is still a forfeit and you have a kid who could have wrestled sitting. Same problem on the upper end at 195 not being able to fat test for 190 and potentially, but less likely 220 for 215.
All that said maybe 12 is the right number, I don't know.. I'm just not in favor of taking away opportunities from wrestling just because we run into this only thinking "fewer weight classes means fewer forfeits" because it's not always going to mean that.. when people say they don't like duals because of "all the forfeits", is it really all the forfeits, or is it lack of matches??? One thing you can say with a fairly high degree of confidence is that reducing weight classes will very rarely mean there are more matches wrestled.
Just for grins, I went back and looked at results that were available online for our duals last season.. small sample size, but here is what it is...
10 total duals including multi-duals with weight class results
6 Duals would have likely had 1 less forfeit
2 Duals would have likely had 2 less forfeits (assuming 113's would fat test for 110)
5 Duals would have likely had 1 less match wrestled
4 Duals would have likely had the same number of matches wrestled
1 Dual would have likely had 1 more match wrestled
LOTS of assumptions went into those numbers, but they are assumptions you have to make.. same bumps in weight classes for reduced weight classes when reality is there are bumps that created forfeits that would still create forfeits as coaches try to avoid good wrestlers and get their guy a match he can possibly win..
But even assuming perfect forfeit reduction, best case scenario here, you basically on average trading 1 average forfeit per dual for 1/2 a match per dual. Now this is one teams schedule, and the actual numbers for an entire state will obviously be different, and it's difficult to be super accurate when you have to make some assumptions that won't play out, and guess on fat tests, but this is really what weight class removal will do.. you will reduce some forfeits, and you will lose some matches, probably on the order of 1/2 of the forfeits you reduce in a lineup where there are some forfeits. Obviously for complete teams, those numbers will run more towards giving up matches, and for smaller teams, more towards reducing forfeits, and on a rare case when the stars align, you will gain a match where you may have had one team FF 106, the other 113, or one 182 and the other 195.. again, assuming the 113 can make 110 and the 195 can make 190 which isn't always going to hold true.
Quote from: DocWrestling on May 28, 2019, 08:47:34 AM
Quote from: imnofish on May 27, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
So, wrestling's participation numbers are down, just as it is with about every other sport. Personally, I think we might be coming at this issue from the wrong direction. If the rate of participation is an issue across the spectrum of high school athletics, then we need to look at why kids are not staying with sports after experiencing youth competition. Eliminating weight classes won't increase high school wrestling rosters any more effectively than would cutting basketball teams back to 4 starters. Young kids are simply being subjected to too much athletic experience and intensity. Despite much discussion of this problem, adults continue to keep adding to the problem, instead of facing it and taking corrective action. So, we keep piling it on until most kids get sick of it; then we cut opportunities for the kids that are still there? That joke of a "solution" is purely reactional. What's needed is a proactive approach... for ALL sports. Leaders in all sports need to swallow their pride and work together. Stop being so competitive so darn early. Back off and let the kids grow up a bit first. What does the research indicate is physiologically and psychologically best for kids? Redesign our national sports programs based on that data. Bet we'd get a much better result.
This is 100% true but can't be fixed. Organizations have tried to do the right things but always some parents that don't listen. Then they start something new and more and others follow to not "be left behind" Parents are the problem, not always the organizations. Imagine if the WIAA did not have season regulations what some of the seasons would look like. Because the WIAA has season regulations we have club sports that take it to the max and year round.
Football is absolutely taking the brunt of the concussion issue. Hockey is now under fire. If wrestling was a popular sport it would be under fire also. All contact sports are affected. No parent scared of their kid playing football is going to say go wrestle. They are going to say go swim or play tennis. Contact sports are contact sports.
I predict the compromise will be fewer weight classes for duals and more for individual tournaments. I think that would be a great balance.
So, the issue is one of regulation. It obviously works within the high school seasons better than outside of them. A national standard needs to be adopted, then regulated by state chapters. It will take a coalition of coaches, doctors, psychologists, etc, to make it happen. Granted, it won't be easy, but the kids' well-being is worth it. This CAN be fixed, if people have the drive to make it happen. Otherwise, we never would have been able to adopt a system of governance for high school athletics.
There is no perfect system. There is no guarantee that it will work. I am with you on that.
We know that standing still isn't working either. We had 12 before. We somehow figured it out.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 28, 2019, 01:41:37 PM
There is no perfect system. There is no guarantee that it will work. I am with you on that.
We know that standing still isn't working either. We had 12 before. We somehow figured it out.
Just because there is no perfect system doesn't mean you make changes to the existing system without considerable thought and analysis. 12 might be the magic number.. I would actually prefer an odd number if you are going to make changes to simplify tie breaks. What we can't afford to do is just try stuff without putting a lot of thought into it and have it not work, and then try something else to have it not work, and on and on.. We absolutely need to put considerable thought into any decision like this, and the decision needs to be driven by the data, not based some guess.. having fat test to the nearest pound not the nearest weight class would help a lot with that.
Quote from: ChargerDad on May 28, 2019, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 28, 2019, 01:41:37 PM
There is no perfect system. There is no guarantee that it will work. I am with you on that.
We know that standing still isn't working either. We had 12 before. We somehow figured it out.
Just because there is no perfect system doesn't mean you make changes to the existing system without considerable thought and analysis. 12 might be the magic number.. I would actually prefer an odd number if you are going to make changes to simplify tie breaks. What we can't afford to do is just try stuff without putting a lot of thought into it and have it not work, and then try something else to have it not work, and on and on.. We absolutely need to put considerable thought into any decision like this, and the decision needs to be driven by the data, not based some guess.. having fat test to the nearest pound not the nearest weight class would help a lot with that.
Agreed! Fat test to the nearest weight class, bumps every wrestler up which obviously skews towards heavier weights. Also agreed on an odd number of weights. I would prefer 13 to 12, and would get rid of 220 and change 195 to 205.
I thought I posted this before.
I am down with body fat testing being tweaked. If you fat test down to say, 121, and the weight becomes that, then you should be able to wrestle it. You shouldn't have to fat test to scratch weight if you aren't ever going to wrestle at scratch weight.
13 weights is good for ties.
I agree with ChargerDad that it should be data based and done with analysis. I believe that has been done. The data "gets worse" almost every year in regards to teams not filling more than 12 weights. Though we've gotten better in 2019, we are still on a trajectory for increasing the amount of not full teams. We added weights and hoped to get football players. There was zero proof it would work, but here we are. I know I'm "pro 12 weights" to the Nth degree, but 14 was a pipe dream. It didn't work. This is a correction, not a reaction.
And I don't agree at all that casual fans don't come to duals. When we were filling weights and winning, our gym was fun to wrestle in. Students would come and watch us and get loud. We put the student section right next to the benches. We're gonna build our numbers again, and we'll see our students come back.
Also, we have to look nationally, and not just at our team or our state. If PA is thinking of going to 12, then how do we think Georgia, or New Hampshire or Maine looks at it? Go look at the state tournaments in some of those states. The amount of losing records in some of the state tournaments is a bad look for our sport.
The losing records in the post season I think is a result of kids dropping weight classes late in the year and leaving an empty spot to be filled by a wrestler who didn't earn a regular spot until the drop opened it up more than having 14 weight classes instead of 12.
I don't think a wrestler's record means anything to those watching. It does not affect our tournament fan attendance. Wrestling is one of the biggest draws in MSHSL tournaments.........
Also, we travel more now. When I was in high school you wrestled your conference schedule and local tournaments where you likely saw three or four schools from your conference. You could easily wrestle the same several kids four times each. People get around much more. Regardless, losing records at the state tournament mean nothing.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 28, 2019, 07:44:16 PM
I thought I posted this before.
I am down with body fat testing being tweaked. If you fat test down to say, 121, and the weight becomes that, then you should be able to wrestle it. You shouldn't have to fat test to scratch weight if you aren't ever going to wrestle at scratch weight.
13 weights is good for ties.
I agree with ChargerDad that it should be data based and done with analysis. I believe that has been done. The data "gets worse" almost every year in regards to teams not filling more than 12 weights. Though we've gotten better in 2019, we are still on a trajectory for increasing the amount of not full teams. We added weights and hoped to get football players. There was zero proof it would work, but here we are. I know I'm "pro 12 weights" to the Nth degree, but 14 was a pipe dream. It didn't work. This is a correction, not a reaction.
And I don't agree at all that casual fans don't come to duals. When we were filling weights and winning, our gym was fun to wrestle in. Students would come and watch us and get loud. We put the student section right next to the benches. We're gonna build our numbers again, and we'll see our students come back.
Also, we have to look nationally, and not just at our team or our state. If PA is thinking of going to 12, then how do we think Georgia, or New Hampshire or Maine looks at it? Go look at the state tournaments in some of those states. The amount of losing records in some of the state tournaments is a bad look for our sport.
Does everyone at least agree that something needs to change and something we can control. I cannot predict the future and what will occur but I would sure like to change something rather than standing still. Football did not want to go to 8-man football and now that is growing greatly and working well for those communities.
Honest changes that can be implemented. Not these
1) changing youth sports is a lost cause. National associations have no power. Not everyone is a member and parents just start a new one if they don't like it. State associations like the WWF can do very little also other than maybe eliminate the youngest age group at state. Then someone else will just start up a state tournament for those kids and parents will still do it.
2) Simply saying finding better coaches that will work harder is idiotic. Many coaches are working hard and struggling. Even if every team with forfeits had lousy coaches there are no coaches wanting to take those jobs. As fast as athlete participation numbers are decreasing so are the number of people willing to coach
Let's try something and compromise
1) More weight classes for individual tournaments than duals
2) Have two divisions and let teams decide which they want to compete in each year. You can compete in the 14 weight class division or the 11/12 weight class division. I would guess we would have 250 teams in the 11/12 division and 50 teams in the 14 weight class division.
I am not sure if going from 12 to 14 weight classes has helped or hurt but at least it was a change and was tried. Let's not be afraid to change again. I do think making everything a scratch weight every day will help.
Quote from: ChargerDad on May 28, 2019, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 28, 2019, 01:41:37 PM
There is no perfect system. There is no guarantee that it will work. I am with you on that.
We know that standing still isn't working either. We had 12 before. We somehow figured it out.
Just because there is no perfect system doesn't mean you make changes to the existing system without considerable thought and analysis. 12 might be the magic number.. I would actually prefer an odd number if you are going to make changes to simplify tie breaks. What we can't afford to do is just try stuff without putting a lot of thought into it and have it not work, and then try something else to have it not work, and on and on.. We absolutely need to put considerable thought into any decision like this, and the decision needs to be driven by the data, not based some guess.. having fat test to the nearest pound not the nearest weight class would help a lot with that.
I don't think attempting to recover from a failed trial (going to 14 weights, and putting an emphasis on higher weight classes) is a bad thing, and I know that the data has been looked at for a number of years. When I discussed this with two of our Midwest NFHS wrestling reps (IL and Mizz) they said that they have been monitoring the number of forfeits and weight classes for the past five years or more. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction. A powerhouse state like Penn simply wouldn't push for this unless there was data to back it up. The weights they are proposing may very well be based off of the numbers they have, which may be different than ours (a much larger demographic) and I'm sure was discussed as well as voted on in some manner by their Coaches Association.
Quote from: ChargerDad on May 28, 2019, 09:33:27 PM
The losing records in the post season I think is a result of kids dropping weight classes late in the year and leaving an empty spot to be filled by a wrestler who didn't earn a regular spot until the drop opened it up more than having 14 weight classes instead of 12.
At state? Getting to state means that they had to beat someone to get there.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 28, 2019, 10:08:50 PM
I don't think a wrestler's record means anything to those watching. It does not affect our tournament fan attendance. Wrestling is one of the biggest draws in MSHSL tournaments.........
Also, we travel more now. When I was in high school you wrestled your conference schedule and local tournaments where you likely saw three or four schools from your conference. You could easily wrestle the same several kids four times each. People get around much more. Regardless, losing records at the state tournament mean nothing.Quote from: Ghetto on May 28, 2019, 07:44:16 PM
I thought I posted this before.
I am down with body fat testing being tweaked. If you fat test down to say, 121, and the weight becomes that, then you should be able to wrestle it. You shouldn't have to fat test to scratch weight if you aren't ever going to wrestle at scratch weight.
13 weights is good for ties.
I agree with ChargerDad that it should be data based and done with analysis. I believe that has been done. The data "gets worse" almost every year in regards to teams not filling more than 12 weights. Though we've gotten better in 2019, we are still on a trajectory for increasing the amount of not full teams. We added weights and hoped to get football players. There was zero proof it would work, but here we are. I know I'm "pro 12 weights" to the Nth degree, but 14 was a pipe dream. It didn't work. This is a correction, not a reaction.
And I don't agree at all that casual fans don't come to duals. When we were filling weights and winning, our gym was fun to wrestle in. Students would come and watch us and get loud. We put the student section right next to the benches. We're gonna build our numbers again, and we'll see our students come back.
Also, we have to look nationally, and not just at our team or our state. If PA is thinking of going to 12, then how do we think Georgia, or New Hampshire or Maine looks at it? Go look at the state tournaments in some of those states. The amount of losing records in some of the state tournaments is a bad look for our sport.
Losing records at state, when the norm, shows that you don't have to be all that good to get there. I'm not talking about one kid who went on a roll and started winning matches. I'm talking about multiple kids per tournament. Sometimes multiple kids per weight. It DOES matter. What other sport has that many teams/individuals competing at state with losing records? Imagine the state basketball tournament with teams with losing records. It NEVER happens. Why? Because there are teams there better that beat them before it gets to that point.
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
We are having two different arguments here.
If you have a large number of kids with losing records at the state tournament (Minnesota had 5 this year. Wisconsin had 1. I'm not talking about those kinds of numbers) it shows that there is little depth and therefore, a watered down product. If a random fan goes to Georgia's state tournament, and there are 75 kids who have a losing record, they have to wonder.
Georgia's wrestling is nowhere near what we have in MN/WI.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 29, 2019, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
We are having two different arguments here.
If you have a large number of kids with losing records at the state tournament (Minnesota had 5 this year. Wisconsin had 1. I'm not talking about those kinds of numbers) it shows that there is little depth and therefore, a watered down product. If a random fan goes to Georgia's state tournament, and there are 75 kids who have a losing record, they have to wonder.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 01:58:22 PM
Georgia's wrestling is nowhere near what we have in MN/WI. Quote from: Ghetto on May 29, 2019, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
We are having two different arguments here.
If you have a large number of kids with losing records at the state tournament (Minnesota had 5 this year. Wisconsin had 1. I'm not talking about those kinds of numbers) it shows that there is little depth and therefore, a watered down product. If a random fan goes to Georgia's state tournament, and there are 75 kids who have a losing record, they have to wonder.
Right.
This is a sport governed by a national federation, trying to make it work for everyone.
I'll stop. You are just arguing to argue. I'm out.
Quote from: Ghetto on May 29, 2019, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
We are having two different arguments here.
If you have a large number of kids with losing records at the state tournament (Minnesota had 5 this year. Wisconsin had 1. I'm not talking about those kinds of numbers) it shows that there is little depth and therefore, a watered down product. If a random fan goes to Georgia's state tournament, and there are 75 kids who have a losing record, they have to wonder.
I have never seen a kid with a losing record qualify for the state tournament in Wisconsin before. I had to go back and look it up because I didn't believe you. That is crazy. I have seen former state qualifiers make it to the state tournament with a 4-3 record because of injury. But never a losing record. A losing record at the state tournament has got to be very rare. I have been going to the state tournament for 26 years and this is the first I have seen it.
Quote from: downtown on May 29, 2019, 09:25:07 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 29, 2019, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 29, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
Why does it matter? Do you think the vast majority of people who don't care don't care because of this? The kids have opportunities. The only reason you see it here is partly because it is individual. Wrestling overall has higher quality of competition than many other sports.
We are having two different arguments here.
If you have a large number of kids with losing records at the state tournament (Minnesota had 5 this year. Wisconsin had 1. I'm not talking about those kinds of numbers) it shows that there is little depth and therefore, a watered down product. If a random fan goes to Georgia's state tournament, and there are 75 kids who have a losing record, they have to wonder.
I have never seen a kid with a losing record qualify for the state tournament in Wisconsin before. I had to go back and look it up because I didn't believe you. That is crazy. I have seen former state qualifiers make it to the state tournament with a 4-3 record because of injury. But never a losing record. A losing record at the state tournament has got to be very rare. I have been going to the state tournament for 26 years and this is the first I have seen it.
Thank you. That was exactly my thought when I read his post. What tournament is he attending? There is rarely a kid at State that doesn't have a 75% winning percentage.
To be clear, a losing record at the Wisconsin state tournament is very rare. In other states, it is very common.
Has there ever been another kid qualify for the state tournament in Wisconsin with a losing record?
Quote from: Ghetto on May 30, 2019, 11:42:39 AM
To be clear, a losing record at the Wisconsin state tournament is very rare. In other states, it is very common.
In SOME other states. Not common in Iowa or Illinois, for sure.
Quote from: imnofish on May 30, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 30, 2019, 11:42:39 AM
To be clear, a losing record at the Wisconsin state tournament is very rare. In other states, it is very common.
In SOME other states. Not common in Iowa or Illinois, for sure.
Not COMMON in ANY states besides those that have very low numbers statewide and have to travel just to get meets. I knew a family in a southern state recently that only had one youth tournament in their entire state each weekend....so no its not common in places where wrestling has any type of numbers. Remember also in these states there isn't even a sectional because of numbers...it goes regionals to state....if that happened here there would be a lot of kids with losing records also.
Sighs
2017-2018 participation numbers
Wisconsin is #17 (6497 wrestlers)
#15 Georgia has higher participation rates than Wisconsin. By over 1000. Had 150+ losing records, many of which were girls, but I'm guessing over 50 boys. Feel free to fact check.
#16 Missouri has 400ish more kids than Wisconsin. 24 kids made the state tournament with losing records
Yes I cherry picked states. Minnesota (#13 in participation) had 5. #12 North Carolina had 2.
If you are gonna say I'm wrong, however, at least check your facts.
If all states went back to one class this would eliminate the sub .500 records at state
Quote from: Ghetto on May 30, 2019, 02:29:11 PM
Sighs
2017-2018 participation numbers
Wisconsin is #17 (6497 wrestlers)
#15 Georgia has higher participation rates than Wisconsin. By over 1000. Had 150+ losing records, many of which were girls, but I'm guessing over 50 boys. Feel free to fact check.
#16 Missouri has 400ish more kids than Wisconsin. 24 kids made the state tournament with losing records
Yes I cherry picked states. Minnesota (#13 in participation) had 5. #12 North Carolina had 2.
If you are gonna say I'm wrong, however, at check your facts.
Georgia also has 7 classes with 16 per weight class, plus girls.. so a MUCH higher likelihood of a less than .500 wrestler qualifying.. Missouri has 4 classes with 16 per weight class..
So number of wrestlers qualifying for state:
WI - 560 HS wrestlers qualify for state
GA - 1568 HS wrestlers qualify for state
MO - 896 HS wrestlers qualify for state
Those numbers are as important as the number of total wrestlers in the state
Quote from: downtown on May 30, 2019, 12:15:35 PM
Has there ever been another kid qualify for the state tournament in Wisconsin with a losing record?
2012- 1
2010- 2
2005- 1
I'm too lazy to look back before the trackwrestling era.
Quote from: padre on May 30, 2019, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: imnofish on May 30, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 30, 2019, 11:42:39 AM
To be clear, a losing record at the Wisconsin state tournament is very rare. In other states, it is very common.
In SOME other states. Not common in Iowa or Illinois, for sure.
Not COMMON in ANY states besides those that have very low numbers statewide and have to travel just to get meets. I knew a family in a southern state recently that only had one youth tournament in their entire state each weekend....so no its not common in places where wrestling has any type of numbers. Remember also in these states there isn't even a sectional because of numbers...it goes regionals to state....if that happened here there would be a lot of kids with losing records also.
Yes, in those cases BOTH 106 pounders get to go to state. ;D
Lots of peculiar things about Georgia. Number 1 they have four divisions. Number 2 there are a lot of kids with less than 10 matches. I'm not sure exactly why that is but if you look at their regionals many classes have kids with no record.
Missouri also has four divisions and 16 kids per division.
Alabama with seven divisions and just a regional.
Numbers can always be skewed for one reason or another.
A stats teacher told me this story---During WWII, the US gov't spent countless hours and dollars (and lives) trying to reduce planes getting shot down. They had the best and brightest recording where bullets were hitting planes that came back after dogfights and missions. They then reinforced those areas in the hopes of saving lives. Unfortunately the results were an increase in downed planes. Finally, someone spoke up and offered the suggestion of recording where the planes did NOT get shot, as obviously the planes were still flying, so why record what is NOT causing the planes to crash. The results were immediate.
My point is--Even by his own mission, Ghetto is cherry picking and these whole Georgia postings are perfect example of how numbers can actually mean nothing. Hopefully the decision makers in WI are not making plans based off flawed #'s or what other states are doing. PA is apples to oranges to WI (as is GA, or MO).
Quote from: padre on May 30, 2019, 04:00:05 PM
Lots of peculiar things about Georgia. Number 1 they have four divisions. Number 2 there are a lot of kids with less than 10 matches. I'm not sure exactly why that is but if you look at their regionals many classes have kids with no record.
Could it be that records don't follow wrestlers into a new weight class? If kids move to a new weight late in the season, that could eliminate most of their matches from their records.
Wisconsin will go with whatever the national federation does.
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun.
Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
Okay...I am catching up...let's see if I got this. We are saying Wisconsin is dropping participation in the sport of wrestling in high school. Some feel the answer is to reduce weight classes. Some say Georgia is a bad example. But has more opportunity for a kid (even with a poor record) to get to state. Georgia's participation numbers in the sport of wrestling has increased over the years according to a flowrestling report.
Could there be a connection? More opportunity = more participation? Some may say this waters down the state tournament. I would ask what is the goal? Increase numbers participating or creating an elite only state tournament?
Quote from: bulldog on May 31, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Okay...I am catching up...let's see if I got this. We are saying Wisconsin is dropping participation in the sport of wrestling in high school. Some feel the answer is to reduce weight classes. Some say Georgia is a bad example. But has more opportunity for a kid (even with a poor record) to get to state. Georgia's participation numbers in the sport of wrestling has increased over the years according to a flowrestling report.
Could there be a connection? More opportunity = more participation? Some may say this waters down the state tournament. I would ask what is the goal? Increase numbers participating or creating an elite only state tournament?
Plus 100000
Quote from: MNbadger on May 31, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun. Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
Some are ready to put on mass and some are not. My oldest could have by 5th grade put on muscle had he chosen to. My middle lifted and lifted and his body type did not allow him to until after his sophomore year.
If their body type(which many 95 lbers are) are skinny and lean there is not a lot you can do but tone.
My youngest son weighed 83 pounds as an 8th grader which should of been his freshman year. The thought that you can take the everyday 95 pound kid and say i know for a fact i can put 10 pounds on him/her is laughable. You are not putting 10 pounds of lean muscle on kids bodies who have not yet matured and ready for it. I'm not a know it all but i have coached high school wrestling for 23 years and my experience says otherwise.
Quote from: bulldog on May 31, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Okay...I am catching up...let's see if I got this. We are saying Wisconsin is dropping participation in the sport of wrestling in high school. Some feel the answer is to reduce weight classes. Some say Georgia is a bad example. But has more opportunity for a kid (even with a poor record) to get to state. Georgia's participation numbers in the sport of wrestling has increased over the years according to a flowrestling report.
Could there be a connection? More opportunity = more participation? Some may say this waters down the state tournament. I would ask what is the goal? Increase numbers participating or creating an elite only state tournament?
It's an interesting premise.
I'll look into other states.
I am for sending more than one entrant per school to regionals in a weight. There are kids who are stuck behind a better kid that are good enough to make it to state.
Quote from: bulldog on May 31, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Okay...I am catching up...let's see if I got this. We are saying Wisconsin is dropping participation in the sport of wrestling in high school. Some feel the answer is to reduce weight classes. Some say Georgia is a bad example. But has more opportunity for a kid (even with a poor record) to get to state. Georgia's participation numbers in the sport of wrestling has increased over the years according to a flowrestling report.
Could there be a connection? More opportunity = more participation? Some may say this waters down the state tournament. I would ask what is the goal? Increase numbers participating or creating an elite only state tournament?
Most certainly to some, having the best, THE champ, is the most important. These are fervent fans/parents typically, with a few really competitive kids wanting this. However, I don't see that creating many divisions or state champions is the actual answer to the decline in wrestling. There are states that have more divisions than ours that are suffering losses in participation too. Some states, like Georgia, wrestling is sort of a "new" thing and that is probably more of a driving force than how many kids are state qualifiers.
There is very little wrong with our state tournament or individual tournament series other than some format issues that many of us would like to see changed like maybe double elimination and eliminating regionals weekend. I don't think the individual tournament has any affect on participation in a bad way. It is possible that if we doubled the number of kids that wrestled at state it might increase overall participation but still not sure I would support that.
The problem recognized in Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Iowa, etc is the duals and the team aspect. If duals did not exist I don't think anyone would be recommending changes.
Discussing state tournaments is pointless. The individual aspect of wrestling is doing fine. The team aspect is suffering greatly and some like me believe that improving the team aspect will have a positive affect on participation numbers especially if it was improved at the JV and middle school level.
Quote from: DocWrestling on May 31, 2019, 02:32:46 PM
There is very little wrong with our state tournament or individual tournament series other than some format issues that many of us would like to see changed like maybe double elimination and eliminating regionals weekend. I don't think the individual tournament has any affect on participation in a bad way. It is possible that if we doubled the number of kids that wrestled at state it might increase overall participation but still not sure I would support that.
The problem recognized in Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Iowa, etc is the duals and the team aspect. If duals did not exist I don't think anyone would be recommending changes.
Discussing state tournaments is pointless. The individual aspect of wrestling is doing fine. The team aspect is suffering greatly and some like me believe that improving the team aspect will have a positive affect on participation numbers especially if it was improved at the JV and middle school level.
How do you propose adjusting weight classes for duals, but not for individual without creating a weight management nightmare where say a kid is wrestling 142 (made up number) but needs to weigh in at 138.4 so he can make 138 in 3 days for a tournament??? If you keep overlapping weight classes the same, but just cut a couple out, well then you might as well just cut them from individual too.. and evenif you figure out a way, it's going to mean a lot fewer matches and experience for some weight classes going into the state series. To me, separate classes for duals and individual tournament just makes no sense at all.
There is no rule that a wrestler must weigh 141.9 if he wants to wrestle 142. We need to stop worrying about every ounce. Kids may be able to fit into weight classes where they don't have to cut weight for duals. Manage your weight for whatever works the best for that wrestler at the time
In your scenario if a wrestler is managing to wrestle 138 in an individual tournament there is no reason he can't weigh 138 and wrestle 142 at a dual.
Quote from: MNbadger on May 31, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun. Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
What age are most of these male wrestlers?
Would you agree most of them are growing and not done growing until they are in there 20s?
So a young wrestler and most of them in this weight classes are younger (the stats back that up) comes into HS or even Jr High they are in those weight classes you can be assured they are not generally muscled up in any way. Some are of course because they know the significant of a good strength and conditioning program. So they are at age where they are growing you can put the weight on them. Good strength program with proper nutrition and you can optimize the individual for peek strength and endurance. One of the big issue is I have seen in Wisconsin wrestling is the concept you have to cut to be stronger than your opponent. If a kid is close to the fat % cuts hard they are cutting water and in many cases muscle. They are doing this because of this ridiculous concept of cutting=wins.....I have better idea; learn technique and get a good strength and conditioning program going in the program. Sure weights are ok but functional training far exceeds the results for muscular endurance, flexibility and useable strength and speed. By the way we Have done this. We have put good lean muscle on athletes over the summer and fall. The bigger the athlete the more we can accomplish. We also through hard work and a specific program have made the muscle they have more efficient.
Again cutting weight classes is one way to improve quality of wrestling but it's not required if coaches would "wrestle the matches" and put more emphasis on the entire program and well being of their athletes. You know the good programs year after year they have the emphasis in the right places.
After all wrestling is the vehicle in which coaches teach; work ethic, sacrifice, team work, self worth, worm equals reward and it should include good health and fitness. Think about that statement next time a kid asks if they are close to 7% and want to cut more weight because they are ducking an opponent or challenge.......
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.change.org%2Fp%2Fnfhs-nfhs-wrestling-weigh-classes-all-sizes-matter&h=AT1mmtF-QuqPPhmcESobQHuu5bLaVmNWQjG3Eu5lUnhmDU0NRnQVgAu6RGVssdJNoj-M-dAYb3r0kUepzUInqelRbWVPhjg3aC6FMkSAabOOQzjK3my9C9_
looks like people in Pennsylvania aren’t too happy about the weight changes. They are sending around a petition to not let it happen. These changes would kill the sport!
Too often on this site and other places individuals will throw out a statement how a wrestler should just "bulk up to the next weight". They seem to think you can add muscle mass easily. It is easy to put on weight but not so with muscle mass. How much muscle mass do you think human beings can put on per week/per month/etc.? I think if you do some research you'd be surprised.
Quote from: ramjet on June 01, 2019, 08:10:08 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 31, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun. Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
What age are most of these male wrestlers?
Would you agree most of them are growing and not done growing until they are in there 20s?
So a young wrestler and most of them in this weight classes are younger (the stats back that up) comes into HS or even Jr High they are in those weight classes you can be assured they are not generally muscled up in any way. Some are of course because they know the significant of a good strength and conditioning program. So they are at age where they are growing you can put the weight on them. Good strength program with proper nutrition and you can optimize the individual for peek strength and endurance. One of the big issue is I have seen in Wisconsin wrestling is the concept you have to cut to be stronger than your opponent. If a kid is close to the fat % cuts hard they are cutting water and in many cases muscle. They are doing this because of this ridiculous concept of cutting=wins.....I have better idea; learn technique and get a good strength and conditioning program going in the program. Sure weights are ok but functional training far exceeds the results for muscular endurance, flexibility and useable strength and speed. By the way we Have done this. We have put good lean muscle on athletes over the summer and fall. The bigger the athlete the more we can accomplish. We also through hard work and a specific program have made the muscle they have more efficient.
Again cutting weight classes is one way to improve quality of wrestling but it's not required if coaches would "wrestle the matches" and put more emphasis on the entire program and well being of their athletes. You know the good programs year after year they have the emphasis in the right places.
After all wrestling is the vehicle in which coaches teach; work ethic, sacrifice, team work, self worth, worm equals reward and it should include good health and fitness. Think about that statement next time a kid asks if they are close to 7% and want to cut more weight because they are ducking an opponent or challenge.......
Quote from: MNbadger on June 01, 2019, 11:18:10 AM
Too often on this site and other places individuals will throw out a statement how a wrestler should just "bulk up to the next weight". They seem to think you can add muscle mass easily. It is easy to put on weight but not so with muscle mass. How much muscle mass do you think human beings can put on per week/per month/etc.? I think if you do some research you'd be surprised.
Quote from: ramjet on June 01, 2019, 08:10:08 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 31, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun. Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
What age are most of these male wrestlers?
Would you agree most of them are growing and not done growing until they are in there 20s?
So a young wrestler and most of them in this weight classes are younger (the stats back that up) comes into HS or even Jr High they are in those weight classes you can be assured they are not generally muscled up in any way. Some are of course because they know the significant of a good strength and conditioning program. So they are at age where they are growing you can put the weight on them. Good strength program with proper nutrition and you can optimize the individual for peek strength and endurance. One of the big issue is I have seen in Wisconsin wrestling is the concept you have to cut to be stronger than your opponent. If a kid is close to the fat % cuts hard they are cutting water and in many cases muscle. They are doing this because of this ridiculous concept of cutting=wins.....I have better idea; learn technique and get a good strength and conditioning program going in the program. Sure weights are ok but functional training far exceeds the results for muscular endurance, flexibility and useable strength and speed. By the way we Have done this. We have put good lean muscle on athletes over the summer and fall. The bigger the athlete the more we can accomplish. We also through hard work and a specific program have made the muscle they have more efficient.
Again cutting weight classes is one way to improve quality of wrestling but it's not required if coaches would "wrestle the matches" and put more emphasis on the entire program and well being of their athletes. You know the good programs year after year they have the emphasis in the right places.
After all wrestling is the vehicle in which coaches teach; work ethic, sacrifice, team work, self worth, worm equals reward and it should include good health and fitness. Think about that statement next time a kid asks if they are close to 7% and want to cut more weight because they are ducking an opponent or challenge.......
Umm you just disagree with anything I post however contrary to your belief I do not just post, I have done it we have done this many times with fantastic results in almost all cases the athlete moved up in weight and had fantastic success. Your ignorance really bores me...
Actually most wrestlers drop weight to success. Yes, you might post a few who went up with success (Dake and others but they are the exception not the rule). Additionally, they are very, very elite. Again, most wrestlers cut close to their 7% for most success.
How many pounds of muscle mass can a human being gain per week/per month/etc.?
Quote from: ramjet on June 01, 2019, 12:33:32 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on June 01, 2019, 11:18:10 AM
Too often on this site and other places individuals will throw out a statement how a wrestler should just "bulk up to the next weight". They seem to think you can add muscle mass easily. It is easy to put on weight but not so with muscle mass. How much muscle mass do you think human beings can put on per week/per month/etc.? I think if you do some research you'd be surprised.
Quote from: ramjet on June 01, 2019, 08:10:08 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on May 31, 2019, 09:44:08 AM
Over what period of time?
Is this a kid who has never lifted or has?
Wrestlers cut weight because it works. Being close to as lean as possible makes a wrestler more competitive. No one cuts weight for fun. Quote from: ramjet on May 31, 2019, 06:45:48 AM
Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them.
We put too much emphasis on cutting thinking it puts kids in better position s to win....
What age are most of these male wrestlers?
Would you agree most of them are growing and not done growing until they are in there 20s?
So a young wrestler and most of them in this weight classes are younger (the stats back that up) comes into HS or even Jr High they are in those weight classes you can be assured they are not generally muscled up in any way. Some are of course because they know the significant of a good strength and conditioning program. So they are at age where they are growing you can put the weight on them. Good strength program with proper nutrition and you can optimize the individual for peek strength and endurance. One of the big issue is I have seen in Wisconsin wrestling is the concept you have to cut to be stronger than your opponent. If a kid is close to the fat % cuts hard they are cutting water and in many cases muscle. They are doing this because of this ridiculous concept of cutting=wins.....I have better idea; learn technique and get a good strength and conditioning program going in the program. Sure weights are ok but functional training far exceeds the results for muscular endurance, flexibility and useable strength and speed. By the way we Have done this. We have put good lean muscle on athletes over the summer and fall. The bigger the athlete the more we can accomplish. We also through hard work and a specific program have made the muscle they have more efficient.
Again cutting weight classes is one way to improve quality of wrestling but it's not required if coaches would "wrestle the matches" and put more emphasis on the entire program and well being of their athletes. You know the good programs year after year they have the emphasis in the right places.
After all wrestling is the vehicle in which coaches teach; work ethic, sacrifice, team work, self worth, worm equals reward and it should include good health and fitness. Think about that statement next time a kid asks if they are close to 7% and want to cut more weight because they are ducking an opponent or challenge.......
Umm you just disagree with anything I post however contrary to your belief I do not just post, I have done it we have done this many times with fantastic results in almost all cases the athlete moved up in weight and had fantastic success. Your ignorance really bores me...
Mnbadger, if you gain ten percent body weight in one yr. which you agreed is doable. And you couple that with good nutrition and weightlifting. Throw in a dose of puberty ,which pretty much all males do. Granted not at the same time. Then maintain 7% at 110 pounds and also at 121 pounds would that not be almost all muscle added?
You guys getting on here talking about kids are going to grow when they hit puberty and they will put on 10 pounds of lean mass. The key word is "WHEN" they hit puberty. I'm sorry not every kid that wrestled 106 is an early bloomer and lets no insult people who disagree with you as though you are a some strength condition expert that is just going to rush each kids puberty cycle along because you say it's so to make your argument valid.
Quote from: Tims on June 01, 2019, 09:23:50 PM
You guys getting on here talking about kids are going to grow when they hit puberty and they will put on 10 pounds of lean mass. The key word is "WHEN" they hit puberty. I'm sorry not every kid that wrestled 106 is an early bloomer and lets no insult people who disagree with you as though you are a some strength condition expert that is just going to rush each kids puberty cycle along because you say it's so to make your argument valid.
+100 hard to gain significant muscle mass before puberty in a short amount of time.
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 01, 2019, 09:43:06 PM
Quote from: Tims on June 01, 2019, 09:23:50 PM
You guys getting on here talking about kids are going to grow when they hit puberty and they will put on 10 pounds of lean mass. The key word is "WHEN" they hit puberty. I'm sorry not every kid that wrestled 106 is an early bloomer and lets no insult people who disagree with you as though you are a some strength condition expert that is just going to rush each kids puberty cycle along because you say it's so to make your argument valid.
+100 hard to gain significant muscle mass before puberty.
Well maybe you should do some research. Sure puberty has an impact and in some cases significant but you may be surprised. Plus functional training is more than just putting on muscle. It is taking muscle you have and making it more efficient.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 01, 2019, 07:46:20 AM
There is no rule that a wrestler must weigh 141.9 if he wants to wrestle 142. We need to stop worrying about every ounce. Kids may be able to fit into weight classes where they don't have to cut weight for duals. Manage your weight for whatever works the best for that wrestler at the time
In your scenario if a wrestler is managing to wrestle 138 in an individual tournament there is no reason he can't weigh 138 and wrestle 142 at a dual.
If they are cutting for tourney weight classes, they would have to continue to cut for a dual even though they could make that weight without cutting because if they didn't it would reset their descent plan and they couldn't make their tourney weight for the next tournament. That's my point.. You'd have to make 138.4 even though you would be wrestling 142. Obviously I understand you can weigh less than the weight class, that is central to my point. This is what makes different weight classes impractical. Kids would be making their tourney weight at a dual, or within a few .1's anyway, so why even bother with the different weight classes.
Quote from: ramjet on June 01, 2019, 10:43:12 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 01, 2019, 09:43:06 PM
Quote from: Tims on June 01, 2019, 09:23:50 PM
You guys getting on here talking about kids are going to grow when they hit puberty and they will put on 10 pounds of lean mass. The key word is "WHEN" they hit puberty. I'm sorry not every kid that wrestled 106 is an early bloomer and lets no insult people who disagree with you as though you are a some strength condition expert that is just going to rush each kids puberty cycle along because you say it's so to make your argument valid.
+100 hard to gain significant muscle mass before puberty.
Well maybe you should do some research. Sure puberty has an impact and in some cases significant but you may be surprised. Plus functional training is more than just putting on muscle. It is taking muscle you have and making it more efficient.
So.... you agree to what I said lol ::)
Yea that 90-95 Functional muscle bound kid is going to have a field day with that 110 pounder. (Sarcasm)
You folks are loosing the context of my post.
I see kids every year going in thinking if they cut weight they are better wrestler or have better chance of winning.
That total BS it takes so much more including great technique and a solid strength and strength and conditioning program.
Diet and hard work can put muscle on a wrestler. Getting into deep water and not run out of gas is very important to success. I am saying cutting weight classes is NOT the end of wrestling and could have some positive impact if folks would keep an open mind. Will it increase participation? Heck I don't know but surely Board shorts didn't but many said it would.
Weight cutting is not always weight optimization there is a huge difference.
With proper weight training over 1 YEAR time, I do believe a high school age athlete can gain maybe 10 pounds of muscle in that YEAR time frame.
gaining muscle weight isnt easy at someone said earlier it takes time, dedication and alot of good old fashion will power.
I know it can been done but it isnt for the one that just doesnt want to put in that effort.
everyone hear whether on either side of the fence has great post about this. I really cannt argue any of them.
A good program of static, circuit, explosive and endurance strength training will be needed along with a good set of cycling all of those principles into a great program.
for the coaches, lay out a 1 year plan for your athletes and set target dates for testing. I know setting up a year weight lifting and training plan is difficult but if you want the best for your athletes you need to do that. at least set up a 3 month program and go from there.
Quote from: littleguy301 on June 02, 2019, 06:52:25 PM
With proper weight training over 1 YEAR time, I do believe a high school age athlete can gain maybe 10 pounds of muscle in that YEAR time frame.
gaining muscle weight isnt easy at someone said earlier it takes time, dedication and alot of good old fashion will power.
I know it can been done but it isnt for the one that just doesnt want to put in that effort.
everyone hear whether on either side of the fence has great post about this. I really cannt argue any of them.
A good program of static, circuit, explosive and endurance strength training will be needed along with a good set of cycling all of those principles into a great program.
for the coaches, lay out a 1 year plan for your athletes and set target dates for testing. I know setting up a year weight lifting and training plan is difficult but if you want the best for your athletes you need to do that. at least set up a 3 month program and go from there.
So if a 95 pound 15 year old is 100% committed to train year round for wrestling it can be done.
In other words, this will not be a problem for 1 in 25 light weight freshman. The other 24, half will wrestle undersized and half will never take the mat.
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
Great list Tims. I can agree...I think if we look at 106 lb state qualifiers over the years there are going to be a good chunk who did everything to bulk up but naturally stayed small. You can force puberty. My own kid stayed small. We thought he would be 113 maybe 120 his high school career. Stayed small freshman year and then started growing. He was 145/152 his senior year.
A big chunk of people on this forum talk about cutting weight and how kids should not be doing that. But isn't "bulking up" the same thing? Lifting and protein drinks to get bigger isn't any better for a body than cutting weight...if either are done to an extreme.
Wrestling discussions always seem to go back to about certain individuals. It is not about individuals, it is about the sport and the teams. Not every kid will fit the scheme of the sport every year in all sports. Plenty of kids in other sports are not physically mature to do varsity athletics until they are juniors and seniors.
Truth is that the light guys have it better than the middle weight guys right now. Why is nobody complaining about these individuals?
We have a 138 lb weight class and a 145 lb weight class. There are more kids on JV's in those weight classes in this state than there are 106 lbers in the state. If we were worried about individuals we should expand and have a 141 lb weight class also. Why is nobody complaining about these individuals. They are freshman and sophomores that have worked just as hard as the little guys and they are on JVs and not quitting because they are competing against kids from all 4 grades.
I have compassion for the little guys because wrestling may be there only sport but no varsity sport can be worried about freshman and sophomores. No other sport is! That is because of puberty, strength, and size and everything being debated here. That is why these kids are on JVs in every other sport. Of course there are individuals that break this but they are very few and we should not be worried about individuals And just about 100% of wrestlers will fit into a weigh class by their junior year that is 110 or 113. That list is mighty small that cannot
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 03:07:07 PM
Wrestling discussions always seem to go back to about certain individuals. It is not about individuals, it is about the sport and the teams. Not every kid will fit the scheme of the sport every year in all sports. Plenty of kids in other sports are not physically mature to do varsity athletics until they are juniors and seniors.
Truth is that the light guys have it better than the middle weight guys right now. Why is nobody complaining about these individuals?
We have a 138 lb weight class and a 145 lb weight class. There are more kids on JV's in those weight classes in this state than there are 106 lbers in the state. If we were worried about individuals we should expand and have a 141 lb weight class also. Why is nobody complaining about these individuals. They are freshman and sophomores that have worked just as hard as the little guys and they are on JVs and not quitting because they are competing against kids from all 4 grades.
I have compassion for the little guys because wrestling may be there only sport but no varsity sport can be worried about freshman and sophomores. No other sport is! That is because of puberty, strength, and size and everything being debated here. That is why these kids are on JVs in every other sport. Of course there are individuals that break this but they are very few and we should not be worried about individuals And just about 100% of wrestlers will fit into a weigh class by their junior year that is 110 or 113. That list is mighty small that cannot
Agreed get rid of 220, make 195 be 210 and add a middle weight.
106, 113, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 165,175, 190, 210, HWT
So Doc let me ask you a question what does having the 106 pound weight class hurt and why do we need to increase it? For the fans? When did high school athletics become about fans? I am on the record as saying i don't even like the 285 limit i believe it should be unlimited as it disqualifies kids from participating. My stance on this is easy, more opportunities. If you referring to this going back to individuals based off me using names which i'm unsure if it's that you are referencing I only posted names so Ramjet could see that the kids i listed wrestle year around and are not couch potatoes not doing what they need to do to improve or get bigger. And i am also unsure if you recall the last time they messed around with the weight classes there was a middle weight eliminated around 130-135-140-145 became 132-138-145 and there was outrage and rightfully so.
Doc...I have to respectfully disagree about wrestling being a team sport. The only reason (IMO) it is a team sport is because of the dual meet aspect. Get rid of them. There is no reason Team A is driving 30 minutes to an hour on a Thursday night in January to compete for 5 matches against Team B. That makes no sense.
If you feel we should only be concerned about what works for the majority then I would submit that the individual aspect is what the majority is interested in. More fans show up to the INDIVIDUAL state tournament then show up to the team state tournament. That means more interest in the individual aspect of the sport. More fans show up to individual tournaments than show up to dual meets...so more interest in individual tournaments.
More interest by fans = more interest in the sports which will grow word of mouth about the sport and help grow participation. What do we hear more about a dual meet or tournament? We see more hype about the Cheesehead (great event) then about a dual meet. More noise is made regarding Oshkosh OTW and Bi-State then a dual. And more talk about certain match-ups at dual meets than about the dual itself.
The sport is about the individual primarily...no matter how much we think we want it to be about the team.
Yes...I agree "Not every kid will fit the scheme of the sport every year in all sports" but I don't see anyone trying to eliminate positions in other sports because of it.
Sure there are more kids between 138 - 145...go ahead...add another weight class...130-135-140-145 is great.
"No varsity sport can be worried about freshman and sophomores" - I don't think that is the argument. The point is that there have been some great athletes that were 106 as freshmen and sophomores who would have sat on the bench or sat out completely if not for the 106 pound weight class. Why eliminate the opportunity for them?
But why eliminate anything? What does it accomplish. Get rid of 106...will that grow the sport? Get rid 4 weight classes and drop down to 10. Does anyone believe the sport will grow by eliminating opportunities for athletes?
Solid post Tims...
If you get rid of duals, participation numbers would plummet. Most kids want to be part of a team concept. Poll your team anonymously. Have honest conversations with your team. You take 14 kids to individual tournaments. Every kid is their all day. The average kid probably wrestles 3 times and gets pinned one of them against a top seed. Wrestles 10 minutes and is gone for 12 hours by the time he is on and off bus. More than not they miss their teammates matches.
Ask parents if they enjoy tournaments when Jimmy only wrestles for 10 minutes and the rest is just controlled chaos.
I am a wrestling junkie. I enjoy tournaments, etc and all that is wrestling. But I and likely all on this forum are an extreme minority.
Truth is that probably 75% of our wrestlers just want to wrestle and be done. They want to be on a team in a team setting like a dual. They want to be in a chair with their teammates watching their other teammate compete on the mat. They would rather go to wrestle two duals on a Saturday morning and be home by noon.
Wrestling will always work for us diehards that could be in the gym all day. But this is about participation numbers. Wrestlers and their families spend more time in a gym than any other sport. That is tough on coaches, athletes, families, and fans!
Tims, I think 220 and 106 hurt duals. Many cannot fill two low weights and two heavy weights. I am from a huge D1 school and we have not had 106lber in probably 10 years and that is after heavy recruiting. Maybe that shows my bias. We have filled it occasionally with somebody that has never wrestled before but that does not help either. We can often fill a heavier weight with a guy wrestling up or recruiting a football player but again we are just filling a weight class rather than putting a wrestler that deserves it. That happens at all weight classes at times but it certainly is more common at each end of the bell curve.
I would be fine with the present weights for individual tournaments and take away 106 and 220 for duals.
Doc i get what you are saying i just disagree with you. I am sorry that you and your team have struggled getting a 106. However teams that can and the other 106 pounders should not be punished because you can't. At Rapids we had 3 kids at 106 this year 2 of them naturally below the weight. Cael benitz as a freshman was 85 pounds. The kids are there. We as coaches and fans of the sport have to get them in it. Also woman's wrestling is growing leaps and bounds right now. A lot of the female wrestlers right now fall in that 106 pound weight class.
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 06:25:01 PM
Doc i get what you are saying i just disagree with you. I am sorry that you and your team have struggled getting a 106. However teams that can and the other 106 pounders should not be punished because you can't. At Rapids we had 3 kids at 106 this year 2 of them naturally below the weight. Cael benitz as a freshman was 85 pounds. The kids are there. We as coaches and fans of the sport have to get them in it. Also woman's wrestling is growing leaps and bounds right now. A lot of the female wrestlers right now fall in that 106 pound weight class.
+100 The lower weight class shouldn't be eliminated. There are kids that would have opportunities eliminated. Sorry to hear Doc has had a hard time.
Quote from: Numbers on May 23, 2019, 02:12:12 PM
Quote from: Numbers on May 23, 2019, 01:10:19 PM
The 12 weight classes would be the following:
110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285
The 14 weight classes as they exist now are:
106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220, 285
PA did not ask me but I would prefer:
108,116,124,131,138,145,152,160,170,185?,215,285
The more this topic is discussed, the more I like what PA is doing. My initial reaction was a small adjustment to the light weights. I think I feel stronger now for the heavy guys.
If there is still a 215 or 220 weight class, why not change 285 to 300?
What is the reason a 189 pound kid used to wrestle a 275 pound kid but now a 220 pound kid cannot wrestle a 300 pound kid? At that weight are you still a "kid"?
I've coached for nearly forty years. Never have trouble getting 103 or 106ers. Way harder finding legit 220 and 285. Even when we do, they are really just fat to be honest.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
If you get rid of duals, participation numbers would plummet. Most kids want to be part of a team concept. Poll your team anonymously. Have honest conversations with your team. You take 14 kids to individual tournaments. Every kid is their all day. The average kid probably wrestles 3 times and gets pinned one of them against a top seed. Wrestles 10 minutes and is gone for 12 hours by the time he is on and off bus. More than not they miss their teammates matches.
Ask parents if they enjoy tournaments when Jimmy only wrestles for 10 minutes and the rest is just controlled chaos.
I am a wrestling junkie. I enjoy tournaments, etc and all that is wrestling. But I and likely all on this forum are an extreme minority.
Truth is that probably 75% of our wrestlers just want to wrestle and be done. They want to be on a team in a team setting like a dual. They want to be in a chair with their teammates watching their other teammate compete on the mat. They would rather go to wrestle two duals on a Saturday morning and be home by noon.
Wrestling will always work for us diehards that could be in the gym all day. But this is about participation numbers. Wrestlers and their families spend more time in a gym than any other sport. That is tough on coaches, athletes, families, and fans!
Tims, I think 220 and 106 hurt duals. Many cannot fill two low weights and two heavy weights. I am from a huge D1 school and we have not had 106lber in probably 10 years and that is after heavy recruiting. Maybe that shows my bias. We have filled it occasionally with somebody that has never wrestled before but that does not help either. We can often fill a heavier weight with a guy wrestling up or recruiting a football player but again we are just filling a weight class rather than putting a wrestler that deserves it. That happens at all weight classes at times but it certainly is more common at each end of the bell curve.
I would be fine with the present weights for individual tournaments and take away 106 and 220 for duals.
https://www.change.org/p/nfhs-nfhs-wrestling-weigh-classes-all-sizes-matter
I'll post this again. Take a look. Not everyone in Pennsylvania is happy about the proposed changes.
This is not a weight class issue, it's a participation issue! I wrestled 103 as a freshman and 112 as a sophomore and I remember having plenty of forfeits. This is not a new issue! I don't remember my parents generation ever suggesting eliminating the weight class!!! Is my generation really going to be this selfish and foolish? I'm sorry some teams can't fill the weight class but you don't eliminate the opportunity for all the other kids. I truly believe this would decimate our numbers if it happened. So many kids would quit in middle school because they wouldn't feel they had a spot to wrestle in high school. It seems as though some on this forum don't realize the 106/113lb freshman and sophomores GROW INTO the lower middle weights as junior and seniors. If they quit in MS then we will start seeing forfeits at 126, 132,138 because there won't be any kids there to grow into those weights. I would list all the great wrestlers that started their careers at the lowest weight classes but that would take me about 20 years to finish...
Quote from: MNbadger on June 03, 2019, 08:20:45 PM
I've coached for nearly forty years. Never have trouble getting 103 or 106ers. Way harder finding legit 220 and 285. Even when we do, they are really just fat to be honest.Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
If you get rid of duals, participation numbers would plummet. Most kids want to be part of a team concept. Poll your team anonymously. Have honest conversations with your team. You take 14 kids to individual tournaments. Every kid is their all day. The average kid probably wrestles 3 times and gets pinned one of them against a top seed. Wrestles 10 minutes and is gone for 12 hours by the time he is on and off bus. More than not they miss their teammates matches.
Ask parents if they enjoy tournaments when Jimmy only wrestles for 10 minutes and the rest is just controlled chaos.
I am a wrestling junkie. I enjoy tournaments, etc and all that is wrestling. But I and likely all on this forum are an extreme minority.
Truth is that probably 75% of our wrestlers just want to wrestle and be done. They want to be on a team in a team setting like a dual. They want to be in a chair with their teammates watching their other teammate compete on the mat. They would rather go to wrestle two duals on a Saturday morning and be home by noon.
Wrestling will always work for us diehards that could be in the gym all day. But this is about participation numbers. Wrestlers and their families spend more time in a gym than any other sport. That is tough on coaches, athletes, families, and fans!
Tims, I think 220 and 106 hurt duals. Many cannot fill two low weights and two heavy weights. I am from a huge D1 school and we have not had 106lber in probably 10 years and that is after heavy recruiting. Maybe that shows my bias. We have filled it occasionally with somebody that has never wrestled before but that does not help either. We can often fill a heavier weight with a guy wrestling up or recruiting a football player but again we are just filling a weight class rather than putting a wrestler that deserves it. That happens at all weight classes at times but it certainly is more common at each end of the bell curve.
I would be fine with the present weights for individual tournaments and take away 106 and 220 for duals.
I am sure that adding 7th and 8th graders help.
Quote from: Fish on June 03, 2019, 08:42:22 PM
https://www.change.org/p/nfhs-nfhs-wrestling-weigh-classes-all-sizes-matter
I'll post this again. Take a look. Not everyone in Pennsylvania is happy about the proposed changes.
This is not a weight class issue, it's a participation issue! I wrestled 103 as a freshman and 112 as a sophomore and I remember having plenty of forfeits. This is not a new issue! I don't remember my parents generation ever suggesting eliminating the weight class!!! Is my generation really going to be this selfish and foolish? I'm sorry some teams can't fill the weight class but you don't eliminate the opportunity for all the other kids. I truly believe this would decimate our numbers if it happened. So many kids would quit in middle school because they wouldn't feel they had a spot to wrestle in high school. It seems as though some on this forum don't realize the 106/113lb freshman and sophomores GROW INTO the lower middle weights as junior and seniors. If they quit in MS then we will start seeing forfeits at 126, 132,138 because there won't be any kids there to grow into those weights. I would list all the great wrestlers that started their careers at the lowest weight classes but that would take me about 20 years to finish...
You realize some great wrestlers spend a year on JV as a freshman? They survived.
There are always going to be plenty of people on multiple sides of any issue in wrestling or life. Not a surprise you found some on the other side. Look at national politics. Look at seeding the state tournament. Look at athlete suspensions for rules infractions. Should pot be legalized? Never going to make everyone happy. Hard enough to keep a majority happy.
I do realize some great wrestlers spent a year on JV and survived. I also know a lot of good wrestlers that quit as freshman because they didn't make varsity. Do I think they should have quit? Absolutely not!! But that's just the way it is. I guarantee 80% of 8th graders that weigh under 100lbs will quit if 106 gets eliminated or bumped up to 110. Again, that's just the way it is. I am a middle school coach and I know that I would have a couple kids quit if this change happened. Why would anyone think changing the lowest weight class would be good for the sport?? Tell me how this would boost our participation numbers! I guarantee it would do the exact opposite.
Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight. Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships. It is varsity. I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade. Guess why? He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter. If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome. If not no big deal. Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs. Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman. Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football. Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.
We're adamant about keeping the lowest weight so the smaller kids don't quit. It has nothing to do with winning a state championship as a freshman, or even being on varsity. You do realize that the JV weight classes are the same as the varsity weights right? Therefore there wouldn't be a spot on JV for these kids either.
Why are people so adamant about changing the lowest weight?? Because there are some forfeits?? So what! There have been forfeits forever!
Please tell me how this would boost our participation numbers! I can give you a lot of examples of how this will hurt our participation numbers.(see my previous posts)
How about this: 105,115,125,135,145,155,165,175,185,195,210,hwt. There's your 12 classes.
Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat. Wrestling matches athletes by weight. You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary. By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states). We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers. As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.
Quote from: downtown on June 03, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight. Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships. It is varsity. I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade. Guess why? He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter. If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome. If not no big deal. Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs. Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman. Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football. Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.
Why is that if a kid weighs 135 as a freshman and spends two years on JV because he can't break the lineup at 138 or 145 behind grown boys who are juniors and seniors, he dos not quit?
But if a kid weighs 100lbs as a freshman he will quit because the lowest weight class is 110 or 113.
Does anybody besides me think that JV weight classes and varsity weight classes should be different? The lowest JV weight class might be lower than 106? They should not be the same weights as varsity. Makes no sense.
I am not hiding behind the fact that I think 106 lbers have been given an easier path. They have learned a lot of accolades with seldom ever having to wrestle a junior or senior. We all have to admit it is an easier path when you have fewer kids overall in the weight class across the state and very few of them have the physical maturity of an upperclassmen. This, while many heavier freshman have to battle juniors and seniors to even get a varsity spot much less go to state. But I do think the that wrestling is the perfect spot for the little guys which is why I do not want to eliminate them from individual competitions. I only want to eliminate 106 from duals and many of these 106lbers could wrestle 113.
Looking for someone to do the research...
How many teams filled both 106 and 113 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
How many teams filled both 220 and 285 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
Quote from: MNbadger on June 03, 2019, 11:00:17 PM
Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat. Wrestling matches athletes by weight. You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary. By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states). We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers. As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.Quote from: downtown on June 03, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight. Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships. It is varsity. I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade. Guess why? He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter. If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome. If not no big deal. Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs. Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman. Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football. Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.
It is not common for any male freshman to compete in varsity athletics in any sport including wrestling. It is a hard thing for any freshman to compete with upper classmen but some have the talent to do it. I would say that probably less than 10% of all varsity male athletes across ALL sports are freshman. But it is certainly much more common at 106 and 113 than at other weight classes. Wrestling may even have the highest percentage of freshman on varsity than any other sport and that might be because of light weight classes or even to many weight classes so they need to be filled by someone.
It is a bit more common in female sports where there are fewer participants and there is less physical difference between a senior and freshman
At the end of the day I take it the naysayers don't like exciting wrestling? The 106/113 are some of the most exciting matches out there. For many this is their sport and on the average put more time into it. They don't have the opportunity to be a varsity candidate in most sports due to their size. I would venture to guess if there was a list of one sport athletes the kids that fill those weights would be in the lead.
That being said last year 106 had 3 freshman finalists along with two sophomores and a junior. 113 had 0 freshman finalists with a senior, 3 juniors and 2 sophomore. Shows these are far from freshman weight classes and the skill of the three frosh are equal to or better than almost any senior out there...these kids wrestle year round.
Now would the senior, 3 juniors and the sophomores still have been out had they been way under weight as frosh? Or being real light junior highers would they have just gotten away from the sport? We will never know...but the one thing we do know is they stayed out because there were light weight classes. Keeping the light classes doesn't hurt numbers...moving them higher will definitely not bring more wrestlers in. I think on that we can agree.
So really what's the end game? More matches won't be wrestled with less weight classes. Maybe a forfeit here or there won't be scored...but does it really matter at the end of the day? Teams that had a lot of forfeits aren't going to all of a sudden win a bunch of duals. Many of us go to the state tournament and we will lose matches throughout the tournament series that may have benefited the wrestler on your team...and isn't that what those of us that coach should want? There will be lots of kids that missed out on opportunities every weekend...I just can't fathom why people want that.
As for this JV dream world some of you live in...most high school teams aren't afforded all of these coaches that they will have JV teams traveling around to these meets. JV teams could be what? 1 or 2 kids more than had there been no weight class reduction? The teams with forfeits aren't moving their kids to JV...those that don't have forfeits will be moving a kid to JV. There isn't going to all of a sudden be these big JV teams because on the average there will be 1/2 a kid more dropped down. The teams that will have big JV teams are the same teams that had no forfeits.
In 1984 I was talked into wrestling by the coach because he said I'd earn a letter at 105. I left basketball after much thought and then got my butt kicked for a year....my ego earned that letter. However, I didn't quit and then got my brother to join the following year along with some friends. Now had there not been a freshman friendly weight for little guys none of that would have happened. So in our school at the time it helped to increase numbers...this is what we should always be looking to do. And yes there were plenty of forfeits then too but I'm thankful for the opportunity that was presented by the sport and because of that one opportunity to me I've given 100s of opportunities at all levels of wrestling to kids. One lost opportunity would have cost a lot to our small community.
Well put.
Quote from: padre on June 03, 2019, 11:56:03 PM
At the end of the day I take it the naysayers don't like exciting wrestling? The 106/113 are some of the most exciting matches out there. For many this is their sport and on the average put more time into it. They don't have the opportunity to be a varsity candidate in most sports due to their size. I would venture to guess if there was a list of one sport athletes the kids that fill those weights would be in the lead.
That being said last year 106 had 3 freshman finalists along with two sophomores and a junior. 113 had 0 freshman finalists with a senior, 3 juniors and 2 sophomore. Shoes these are far from freshman weight classes and the skill of the three frosh are equal to or better than almost any senior out there...these kids wrestle year round.
Now would the senior, 3 juniors and the sophomores still have been out had they been way under weight as frosh? Or being real light junior highers would they have just gotten away from the sport? We will never know...but the one thing we do know is they stayed out because there were light weight classes. Keeping the light classes doesn't hurt numbers...moving them higher will definitely not bring more wrestlers in. I think on that we can agree.
So really what's the end game? More matches won't be wrestled with less weight classes. Maybe a forfeit here or there won't be scored...but does it really matter at the end of the day? Teams that had a lot of forfeits aren't going to all of a sudden win a bunch of duals. Many of us go to the state tournament and we will lose matches throughout the tournament series that may have benefited the wrestler on your team...and at the end of the day isn't that what those of us that coach should want? There will be lots of kids that missed out on opportunities every weekend...I just can't fathom why people want that.
As for this JV dream world some of you live in...most high school teams aren't afforded all of these coaches that they will have JV teams traveling around to these meets. JV teams could be what? 1 or 2 kids more than had there be no weight class reduction? The teams with forfeits aren't moving their kids to JV...those that don't have forfeits will be moving a kid to JV. There isn't going to all of a sudden be these big JV teams because on the average there will be 1/2 a kid more dropped down.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
Why is that if a kid weighs 135 as a freshman and spends two years on JV because he can't break the lineup at 138 or 145 behind grown boys who are juniors and seniors, he dos not quit?
But if a kid weighs 100lbs as a freshman he will quit because the lowest weight class is 110 or 113.
Does anybody besides me think that JV weight classes and varsity weight classes should be different? The lowest JV weight class might be lower than 106? They should not be the same weights as varsity. Makes no sense.
I am not hiding behind the fact that I think 106 lbers have been given an easier path. They have learned a lot of accolades with seldom ever having to wrestle a junior or senior. We all have to admit it is an easier path when you have fewer kids overall in the weight class across the state and very few of them have the physical maturity of an upperclassmen. This, while many heavier freshman have to battle juniors and seniors to even get a varsity spot much less go to state. But I do think the that wrestling is the perfect spot for the little guys which is why I do not want to eliminate them from individual competitions. I only want to eliminate 106 from duals and many of these 106lbers could wrestle 113.
Looking for someone to do the research...
How many teams filled both 106 and 113 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
How many teams filled both 220 and 285 with at least average wrestlers of maybe around .500 wrestlers or better?
If 110 becomes the lowest varsity weight, I think 103 should be added as a JV weight.
And since any change is likely a year away hopefully Wisconsin has a separate girls division before boys weight classes change. I have not seen much discussion of number of weight classes and weights for high school girls.
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
For the record if any class needs work or if they are foing to reduce anything it should be combining 195 and 220. Never liked adding an upper weight class.
Now please hit me harder to drive home your point of size.
Noticed I didn't say an age for a high schooler gaining 10 pounds?
While I dont know all the kids on the list I do know that some of the kids lost weight for at one point in the past year or so.
All because you have a 93 pound kid dont cut them to 88 if they are cadets. Pretty hard to put on weight if your dropping 5 to 7% of your body weight just to place better in some off season tournament.
If you want growth, give the young athlete a time frame to grow with out dropping one ounce.
Ben askren and Tommy rowlands had more than a few shows about this same thing. Kyle dake, David Taylor have talked the same. Allow yourself/athlete to grow and train. Wrestle what ever weight.
I was hoping some one was going to bring up manny drexler. Doubt he dropped much if anything, and I doubt he has missed any weight room sessions.
Quote from: littleguy301 on June 04, 2019, 04:53:36 AM
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
For the record if any class needs work or if they are foing to reduce anything it should be combining 195 and 220. Never liked adding an upper weight class.
Now please hit me harder to drive home your point of size.
Noticed I didn't say an age for a high schooler gaining 10 pounds?
While I dont know all the kids on the list I do know that some of the kids lost weight for at one point in the past year or so.
All because you have a 93 pound kid dont cut them to 88 if they are cadets. Pretty hard to put on weight if your dropping 5 to 7% of your body weight just to place better in some off season tournament.
If you want growth, give the young athlete a time frame to grow with out dropping one ounce.
Ben askren and Tommy rowlands had more than a few shows about this same thing. Kyle dake, David Taylor have talked the same. Allow yourself/athlete to grow and train. Wrestle what ever weight.
I was hoping some one was going to bring up manny drexler. Doubt he dropped much if anything, and I doubt he has missed any weight room sessions.
He's spent more time in a weight room than anyone. He probably could have been 113 this year if he wanted but his brother was there.
I'm not sure if you are refferring to me cutting Preston to 88 pounds as a cadet. Yea after 8th grade year he was weighing 90 pounds and wrestled 88 pounds for the Dual team If you knew how much ice cream Preston eats you would hardly call this cutting weight. We didn't go to Fargo for the very reason of wanting to grow and get ready for 106 not 110.
We had a junior this year who weighed around 90 lbs. He's very muscular. He won a few matches and at least contributed to the team. No way this kid is ever going to be 110 next year. No way there will be enough JV experiences available for kids like him. Is it fair to kids like him, if we make their challenges even greater than they are already? Personally, I don't think so. I was small like him, when I was a freshman, but eventually grew into a middle weight wrestler. One thing that attracted me to wrestling was the fact that I had the opportunity to wrestle other kids who weighed 95 lbs., rather than trying to compete against kids more than double my weight, or at least a foot taller than me. Wrestling is the fairest sport there is, when it comes to accommodating kids of all sizes. Abandoning that strength would be a big mistake.
There seems several people that think the solution is to eliminate the 105 lb weight class and let these kids wrestle JV. Sure...that is fine...how many JV matches are we seeing today? If there isn't enough kids to fill a 105 lb weight class now at some schools why would JV give these kids more opportunity to wrestle. By eliminating a weight class we are not going to see more kids come into the sport.
So are we looking for ways to increase participation or ways to eliminate positions?
Eliminating weights has not worked. Killed off the 98 lb weight class because there were not enough 98 lb wrestlers. I believe the debate was pretty much the same as we are having now. That the 98 lb wrestlers will be on JV for a year until they "grow into" the new 103 lb weight class. But then the kids were not filling 103 so let's bump up to 105. Now 105 doesn't have enough so let's kill 105 and bump to 110.
This format leads to the conclusion in 5-10 years some will say to kill the 110 weight class and bump to 113. Looks like a negative trend to me. Killing off weight class has NOT increased JV participation in the sport.
The weights need to stay the same as they are now. JV shouldn't even have weight classes. Match kids up as close to weight as possible and let them go at. We need to quit taking opportunities away from kids. Forfeits will always happen. HWT should not have a limit.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 11:13:59 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on June 03, 2019, 11:00:17 PM
Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat. Wrestling matches athletes by weight. You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary. By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states). We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers. As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.Quote from: downtown on June 03, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight. Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships. It is varsity. I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade. Guess why? He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter. If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome. If not no big deal. Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs. Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman. Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football. Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.
It is not common for any male freshman to compete in varsity athletics in any sport including wrestling. It is a hard thing for any freshman to compete with upper classmen but some have the talent to do it. I would say that probably less than 10% of all varsity male athletes across ALL sports are freshman. But it is certainly much more common at 106 and 113 than at other weight classes. Wrestling may even have the highest percentage of freshman on varsity than any other sport and that might be because of light weight classes or even to many weight classes so they need to be filled by someone.
It is a bit more common in female sports where there are fewer participants and there is less physical difference between a senior and freshman
Track and Field, Tennis, Swimming, golf. These all have freshmen, and fair number of them on Varsity scoring points for the team. Maybe not very many make it to State, but like wrestling, some do. Most certainly I'm not saying that we need to accomodate for every kid on the team and create a varsity spot or they will quit the sport, as some people are saying. Yet I'm not in the camp that says let's not worry about the smaller (younger) kids. Having my experiences in MN with very QUALITY middle schoolers who routinely beat older wrestlers, shows that those kids most certainly can have a positive impact on the varsity, even if they are young.
Bottom line is that we have kids quit this sport at all weights and ages because they "won't have a varsity spot". We also have kids who quit this sport because they are thrust onto the varsity well before they are ready. We have kids who stick it out for 3 or even 4 years of high school wrestling who can't make varsity. All of the worry about "this kid will quit" is already happening, everywhere in our sport. Adding more weight classes or "opportunities" as some of you say most certainly didn't stop that from happening. It was a failed experiment.
Sorry Bulldog, but for all the interest and excitement that one individual match might create, the duals is where more attention is drawn. Go to an individual tournament and there are sometimes the parents of the 14 wrestlers, and a few other fans. Go to a dual and there are the parents, students, youth wrestlers and parents and other citizens of the community who like to attend home events. What gets talked about by those people are the duals. What gets discussed in the community are the duals against the rival team(s). The big tournaments get discussed among actual wrestling fans, like us on this board, but nobody else. They don't have any awareness or interest, and unfortunately this includes most of our youth wrestlers and parents. Duals are critical to the lifeblood of this sport.
From what I have seen is that overall, there are more fans at indy tournaments than duals. It is certainly true of the state tournament. Other than key marque match ups, the average individual tournament outdraws the average dual (and that is here in MN, a dual crazy state).
Quote from: Handles II on June 04, 2019, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 03, 2019, 11:13:59 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on June 03, 2019, 11:00:17 PM
Your son didn't play football at 140 because it is a sport that in which success is predicated on being large and/or fat. Wrestling matches athletes by weight. You are comparing apples to oranges.Your perception that varsity sports should just be for juniors and seniors is completely arbitrary. By definition, varsity sports are for grades 9-12 (or 7-12 in some states). We should be looking at males in grades 9-12(or 7-12 in some states) according to the CDC numbers. As I have stated before, my experience has been one where I have found it much easier to recruit for and fill the lower weights (103 and 106) than the heavier weights.Quote from: downtown on June 03, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
Why are we so adamant about keeping the lightest weight. Why do we feel it necessary to promote freshman winning state championships. It is varsity. I wasn't offended and calling for change when my 140lb son wasn't a varsity starter in football as a freshman even though he was a world beater in 8th grade. Guess why? He wasn't big enough to be a varsity starter. If a kid is good enough to be a varsity starter and win a state title like a beau breske then awesome. If not no big deal. Varsity weights should start at no less than 110lbs. Just because you someday you might be a state champion doesn't mean you are entitled to a varsity spot as a freshman. Just like next to no freshman start in the larger divisions in football. Grow into your frame and become better at your sport.
It is not common for any male freshman to compete in varsity athletics in any sport including wrestling. It is a hard thing for any freshman to compete with upper classmen but some have the talent to do it. I would say that probably less than 10% of all varsity male athletes across ALL sports are freshman. But it is certainly much more common at 106 and 113 than at other weight classes. Wrestling may even have the highest percentage of freshman on varsity than any other sport and that might be because of light weight classes or even to many weight classes so they need to be filled by someone.
It is a bit more common in female sports where there are fewer participants and there is less physical difference between a senior and freshman
Track and Field, Tennis, Swimming, golf. These all have freshmen, and fair number of them on Varsity scoring points for the team. Maybe not very many make it to State, but like wrestling, some do. Most certainly I'm not saying that we need to accomodate for every kid on the team and create a varsity spot or they will quit the sport, as some people are saying. Yet I'm not in the camp that says let's not worry about the smaller (younger) kids. Having my experiences in MN with very QUALITY middle schoolers who routinely beat older wrestlers, shows that those kids most certainly can have a positive impact on the varsity, even if they are young.
Bottom line is that we have kids quit this sport at all weights and ages because they "won't have a varsity spot". We also have kids who quit this sport because they are thrust onto the varsity well before they are ready. We have kids who stick it out for 3 or even 4 years of high school wrestling who can't make varsity. All of the worry about "this kid will quit" is already happening, everywhere in our sport. Adding more weight classes or "opportunities" as some of you say most certainly didn't stop that from happening. It was a failed experiment.
Sorry Bulldog, but for all the interest and excitement that one individual match might create, the duals is where more attention is drawn. Go to an individual tournament and there are sometimes the parents of the 14 wrestlers, and a few other fans. Go to a dual and there are the parents, students, youth wrestlers and parents and other citizens of the community who like to attend home events. What gets talked about by those people are the duals. What gets discussed in the community are the duals against the rival team(s). The big tournaments get discussed among actual wrestling fans, like us on this board, but nobody else. They don't have any awareness or interest, and unfortunately this includes most of our youth wrestlers and parents. Duals are critical to the lifeblood of this sport.
" Sure...that is fine...how many JV matches are we seeing today? If there isn't enough kids to fill a 105 lb weight class now at some schools why would JV give these kids more opportunity to wrestle. By eliminating a weight class we are not going to see more kids come into the sport. "
This.
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
So you are saying none of these kids have ever cut weight even in greco freestyle?
Where do i ever imply in my post that these kids never cut for Greco and Freestyle and what is hard to understand about those kids were under 106 pounds during the year? I get that some of you posting on this topic are not smaller by stature people and you may live in a weight room or nutritional gurus. So i get that you wouldn't understand the point of view from folks who were late bloomers or from folks where mom and dads average height between them is 5'3 and less than 140-150 pounds as adults. Weight class at individual state this year for 106 was 109 first day weigh in. D1 Preston S and Shane C were the two lightest kids in that bracket. both were I believe 104.5 or less and if you want to point out that it was somehow tied to them cutting a few pounds for Greco and Freestyle thats laughable. I can only speak for Preston but he weighed that after breakfast that day!
ramjet you are trying to take this off topic. The discussion isn't about weights at a freestyle/greco tournament. I don't know for sure but I don't believe we are discussing eliminating weight classes for Greco/Freestyle. If we are going to include Greco/freestyle in the discussion then include there are different weight classes for Cadet (I know...it is 16U now) and Juniors. Also include the discussion that an 8th grader can wrestle as a cadet in Greco/Freestyle. Also include in the discussion that the Cadet weights go down to 88 lbs and Junior weight classes go down to 100 lbs in Greco/Freestyle competition.
17 weight classes for Cadets (16U) and 15 weight classes for Juniors
Less wrestlers compete in Greco/Freestyle competition then compete in Folkstyle but I don't hear people saying we need to eliminate those weight classes because there isn't enough kids to fill a bracket at the state tournament.
Thanks MN Badger...that was what I was getting at - Handles II - I am purely looking at number of fans in the stands and by far there are going to be more fans at a individual tournament then at a dual meet. Sure...some big dual (Rapids vs Merrill) draw great crowds. But the average dual...you get most parents and siblings of the athletes. You don't get people from the school that just support HS sports. Wrestling isn't drawing non-wrestling spectators. At least not any numbers that make a difference. But a tournament draws a crowd. And we are talking about what is for the masses...not the minority.
I like duals but they are tough on the kids. Make weight on Thursday...and make weight on Saturday beats these kids up. Makes no sense to wrestle on Thursday...one day off and then compete again 2 days later. Your body is not able to recover that quick.
I don't know of another sport that physical for 6 minutes straight that expects the athlete to compete like that...Coach Hall once compare wrestling to an all out sprint for 6 minutes. That has to be tough on a body...sprint for 6 minutes on Thursday and then do it 3-5 times again on Saturday.
Quote from: Tims on June 04, 2019, 04:45:03 PM
Where do i ever imply in my post that these kids never cut for Greco and Freestyle and what is hard to understand about those kids were under 106 pounds during the year? I get that some of you posting on this topic are not smaller by stature people and you may live in a weight room or nutritional gurus. So i get that you wouldn't understand the point of view from folks who were late bloomers or from folks where mom and dads average height between them is 5'3 and less than 140-150 pounds as adults. Weight class at individual state this year for 106 was 109 first day weigh in. D1 Preston S and Shane C were the two lightest kids in that bracket. both were I believe 104.5 or less and if you want to point out that it was somehow tied to them cutting a few pounds for Greco and Freestyle thats laughable. I can only speak for Preston but he weighed that after breakfast that day!
Are you saying the Spray family knows more than Ram? How dare you. 🙄🙄🙄
What is going to draw more people?
A) A dual with 2 teams and about 28 families of competitors.
B) A tournament with 16 teams and about 200 families of competitors.
C) A tournament with 40 wrestlers per weight class with families and teammates?
I guess we should just run the state series every month.
December preseason state series.
January Midseason state series and Conference tournament.
February Traditional State Tournament series.
Tims just send your kid to Ram for the summer. He will have him gain 10lbs of muscle guaranteed.
"Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them."
Quote from: Numbers on June 05, 2019, 07:07:06 AM
What is going to draw more people?
A) A dual with 2 teams and about 28 families of competitors.
B) A tournament with 16 teams and about 200 families of competitors.
C) A tournament with 40 wrestlers per weight class with families and teammates?
I guess we should just run the state series every month.
December preseason state series.
January Midseason state series and Conference tournament.
February Traditional State Tournament series.
or an 8 team invite or an 6 team dual meet? We pack the gym for our 6 team dual meet and I have been in many gyms with 8 man invites that are half full at best. You can't compare Oshkosh on the Water to a Thursday night dual. I'd also ask how many fans are in actual attendance at these invites. You have 560 wrestlers or more, 200 coaches at many of the Christmas big tournaments and as numbers pointed out, families of those kids. Go to a dual on Thursday there are far more fans there than family at least at our school.
Quote from: MNbadger on June 04, 2019, 02:52:00 PM
From what I have seen is that overall, there are more fans at indy tournaments than duals. It is certainly true of the state tournament. Other than key marque match ups, the average individual tournament outdraws the average dual (and that is here in MN, a dual crazy state).Quote from: Handles II on June 04, 2019, 09:22:51 AM
Of course there are perhaps more spectators at a tournament with 10 teams than a dual meet with two. However, I spoke to whom those spectators are. At individual tournaments it's some of the parents and a few fans. At duals it's the student body, locals looking to support whatever home team is playing that night, parents, teachers, school board members, administrators higher percentage of youth wrestlers and parents.
Which one is actually drawing people in that can have an impact on our sport?
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
Arik Furseth never cut until his Sr year, & even that was minimal as he wrestled 113 even though he certified at 106. Beau Ladu never cut until his SR year, and in speaking with him at State last year he said it was difficult as he never had to cut and didn't really know what he was doing. Quintin Gerhman was undersized until his Jr year, and at that time was only cutting a few pounds. There are many kids that were undersized even as upper classman who have proven to be outstanding wrestlers.
Quote from: 1Iota on June 05, 2019, 10:10:18 AM
Quote from: Tims on June 03, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Just wanted to make a post of kids that were naturally under 106 this year. I hope that this doesn't get any parents upset that i used their kids.
Will start with my own.
1. Preston Spray started season around 102 Lifts 3-4 days a week and has since the fall of 17 when he weigh 83 Pounds.
2. Shane Corrigan
3 Tyler Klein have you seen this kid? He doesn't skip the weight room.
4. Joey Showalter
5. Chase Beckett
6. Parker Heintz
7. Ben Kaus
8. Andrew Martin
9. Jaxon Pernot
10. Kaleb Casey
I'm pretty sure Troy Dolphin was small too. There are many many others that are small and put in the work. But have not Fully developed as young men. I know i have left about another 10 kids that i know are smaller than 106 and still 106 or less.
The one thing if you go back and look at these kids in track these guys have been around the same weight as each other all of their wrestling lives. I am pretty sure the fuss right now is expanding the 106 to 110. To be clear I was upset when they went from 103 to 106.
Arik Furseth never cut until his Sr year, & even that was minimal as he wrestled 113 even though he certified at 106. Beau Ladu never cut until his SR year, and in speaking with him at State last year he said it was difficult as he never had to cut and didn't really know what he was doing. Quintin Gerhman was undersized until his Jr year, and at that time was only cutting a few pounds. There are many kids that were undersized even as upper classman who have proven to be outstanding wrestlers.
Agreed. Back in the day they had 98 lbs. I don't see how bumping up the lowest weight will help the duals honestly. And tournaments, watching the 106lbers is very entertaining. Alot of talent there.
HandlesII...You make it sound like the entire student body is showing up to dual meets and only parents and a few fans show up at a tournament.
The majority of the crowd at a dual meet is the HOME team parents and siblings of the athletes. You will get a few of the student body but no way is the student body making up the majority of the fan base at a dual meet. Maybe you get a few football players come to hang out but you also get more fans that don't have kids in the sport showing up to tournaments.
Don't count the promo for the evening...parent night, youth wrestling night, sponsor night, alumni night. Those people are not showing up every home meet. Take away these events this bunch doesn't show up so they are only coming to meets to make an appearance. Too many times I have seen the majority of youth wrestlers leave as soon as they do their stint before the varsity match. Maybe the stick around for a match or two but if they don't have a sibling wrestling many times they are gone. It's a school night and the parents don't want to keep little Johnny out until 10:00 on a school night...I get it.
Are we saying fan attendance is bad to either duals or tourneys? I feel attendance is good.
Sure, for the teams that have only 7 wrestlers that dual each other, the attendance will be low.. and lowering it 12 weights won't make those duals any less or more exciting.
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 05, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Tims just send your kid to Ram for the summer. He will have him gain 10lbs of muscle guaranteed.
"Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them."
I find this concept confusing. If I give Ram my 95 lb kid, how can I put 10# of lean muscle on him? ;)
Quote from: Tims on June 04, 2019, 07:06:30 AM
I'm not sure if you are refferring to me cutting Preston to 88 pounds as a cadet. Yea after 8th grade year he was weighing 90 pounds and wrestled 88 pounds for the Dual team If you knew how much ice cream Preston eats you would hardly call this cutting weight. We didn't go to Fargo for the very reason of wanting to grow and get ready for 106 not 110.
Wouldn't have a clue as to what you and your son cut.
I hope you and your son make 106.
Like I said and posted if any weights need to be talked about it is 195 and 220.
Also said I did t put an age on when either.
Like people have posted about others weighing light. I think arik f is now 125 in college. I will say there are a small amount of athletes that gain that 10 pounds after they graduate
Arik Furseth is 133.
Quote from: whatever on June 05, 2019, 11:33:01 PM
Arik Furseth is 133.
He is now, but he was 85lbs as a frosh in HS
Quote from: imnofish on June 05, 2019, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 05, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Tims just send your kid to Ram for the summer. He will have him gain 10lbs of muscle guaranteed.
"Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them."
I find this concept confusing. If I give Ram my 95 lb kid, how can I put 10# of lean muscle on him? ;)
Send him to me I will show you. In growing boys it's as tough as some of you make it out to be. We will also develop better strength in position grip and muscular endurance and increase explosiveness and speed. Speed is power and power is speed.
Quote from: ramjet on June 13, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Quote from: imnofish on June 05, 2019, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 05, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Tims just send your kid to Ram for the summer. He will have him gain 10lbs of muscle guaranteed.
"Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them."
I find this concept confusing. If I give Ram my 95 lb kid, how can I put 10# of lean muscle on him? ;)
Send him to me I will show you. In growing boys it's as tough as some of you make it out to be. We will also develop better strength in position grip and muscular endurance and increase explosiveness and speed. Speed is power and power is speed.
I get what you are saying. I trained my own kids and they did put on a lot of muscle and speed, over time. One was transformed from a severe asthmatic to a state champion sprinter. I was jokingly referencing your specific words, in this case. Obviously, kids can't be in two places at once.
Malecek team camp this weekend and the biggest weight class by far is 106 with 113 as the second biggest. To advocate taking away small weight classes is just naive for anyone that believes it would somehow help the sport.
Ok one solution is coaches stop playing stupid games and wrestle the matches that men's moving kids up if they have too stop ducking and these unnecessary FF. It's disgusting and does nothing for the athletes. Too many parents or fans drive long distance to have matches FF to win a dual that has zero impact. Especially when match's could have been wrestled. It's selfish and does absolutely ZERO for the sport or the wrestlers.
Quote from: imnofish on June 13, 2019, 11:10:11 AM
Quote from: ramjet on June 13, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
Quote from: imnofish on June 05, 2019, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 05, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Tims just send your kid to Ram for the summer. He will have him gain 10lbs of muscle guaranteed.
"Give me a 95 lb kid and with proper diet and training you can put 10# of lean muscle on them."
I find this concept confusing. If I give Ram my 95 lb kid, how can I put 10# of lean muscle on him? ;)
Send him to me I will show you. In growing boys it's as tough as some of you make it out to be. We will also develop better strength in position grip and muscular endurance and increase explosiveness and speed. Speed is power and power is speed.
I get what you are saying. I trained my own kids and they did put on a lot of muscle and speed, over time. One was transformed from a severe asthmatic to a state champion sprinter. I was jokingly referencing your specific words, in this case. Obviously, kids can't be in two places at once.
Got it.
Quote from: padre on June 25, 2019, 06:21:40 AM
Malecek team camp this weekend and the biggest weight class by far is 106 with 113 as the second biggest. To advocate taking away small weight classes is just naive for anyone that believes it would somehow help the sport.
So cutting off at 107 looks like 52 kids under that weight isn't there lime 800 wrestlers down there?
Of there is that's the case then those kids are 7%. Of the total.
They matter for sure but if you are going to say they make up most the kids please make sure tracks shows that. Unless I missed something?
Quote from: ramjet on June 25, 2019, 08:15:50 PM
Quote from: padre on June 25, 2019, 06:21:40 AM
Malecek team camp this weekend and the biggest weight class by far is 106 with 113 as the second biggest. To advocate taking away small weight classes is just naive for anyone that believes it would somehow help the sport.
So cutting off at 107 looks like 52 kids under that weight isn't there lime 800 wrestlers down there?
Of there is that's the case then those kids are 7%. Of the total.
They matter for sure but if you are going to say they make up most the kids please make sure tracks shows that. Unless I missed something?
Pretty easy to look at the numbers. No other weight close. Pretty much no one cutting for a summer camp so guessing most are well above what they plan to wrestle.
The point is to think dropping a small weight somehow benefits the sport is just plain crazy talk. 72 106s compared to 29 285s.
Taking away 106 will lower fan attendance at duals and tourneys IMO. Less kids to watch out there, less parents going, less fans going.
If you go from 14 to 12 weights, Fan Attendance at dual/tournies will definitely drop.
106-72
113-63
120-76
126-69
132-58
138-61
145-65
152-73
160-60
170-70
182-60
195-52
220-54
285-44
These were the kids registered. I'm sure some didn't go, etc.
The four heaviest weight classes have the fewest kids, but yea let's cut 106 lol.
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 26, 2019, 01:28:34 PM
106-72
113-63
120-76
126-69
132-58
138-61
145-65
152-73
160-60
170-70
182-60
195-52
220-54
285-44
These were the kids registered. I'm sure some didn't go, etc.
The four heaviest weight classes have the fewest kids, but yea let's cut 106 lol.
Not going to argue to cut 106, I don't believe in that even though my kid will likely never wrestle below 195 in HS.. But how did you get those numbers? I saw some teams showed goofy entries.. Olympia, IL had 16 106's entered... saw a couple other teams like that as well.. probably just entry errors.
Went to the participants and counted the numbers in each weight class.
Quote from: wrastle63 on June 26, 2019, 02:35:51 PM
Went to the participants and counted the numbers in each weight class.
Yea, I didn't trust those numbers because of a couple teams i saw with weird numbers, but based on the individual tournament numbers they may not be that far off... I did it on the individual tournament taking actual weights, adding the 7 pound allowance for dual format, but not everyone participated in it, and you have a bunch of very light 106's (< 100 pounds) that I suspect are MS kids (more than half are MN kids, probably 7th or 8th graders)
These are the individual numbers.. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the low heavy numbers at a summer tourney.. off season numbers never good for big boys.. Though, to me, any weight adjustments need to be spreading out the upper and lower weights, and pushing the middle weights closer together where there are more kids typically..
106 117
113 60
120 73
126 60
132 64
138 54
145 70
152 58
160 56
170 51
182 68
195 50
220 48
285 35
I went to the individual tournament looked up weight classes and counted the 4 man brackets below 107lbs. All that said there is way to do this without eliminating or showing bias against any specific weight class.
I am not going to guess where kids will be because depending on age they may move up as well as down for the season.
Bottom line is we can debate this until we are blue in the face last I checked my vote has absolutely no impact on the final outcome.
I went back and counted all the wrestlers in all the weight classes at all the Regionals last spring. This doesn't count all wrestlers obviously, but it's a pretty accurate reflection of a teams ability to fill a weight class. Here is what we have across all divisions in 2018-2019. Kind of what I expected.. numbers in the middle are better. A few more in the weight classes slightly below middle than slightly above because these aren't all kids the same age and younger wrestlers are more likely to fill lighter weight classes.. What these numbers DON'T say is that the 3 biggest weight classes are where the problem is which some have implied on here.. the number of wrestlers is actually more per weight class at the top than at the bottom by a total of 25 across all weight classes, most of that by fewer forfeits at 285 than 106. Don't take this as me saying 106 needs to go. I don't believe that. 106 needs to stay.
106 220
113 232
120 237
126 251
132 266
138 265
145 280
152 258
160 259
170 257
182 244
195 235
220 238
285 241
Pat Tocci @ptoc134 Jun 30
Tomorrow will be interesting and good at the NFHS Summer meeting with the wrestling specific meeting. I am sure weight classes for both boys and girls will be at the forefront of the discussion.
https://twitter.com/ptoc134/status/1145450780855623680
PIAA Looking to Reduce Number of Weight Classes in Wrestling
http://d9sports.com/piaa-looking-to-reduce-number-of-weight-classes-in-wrestling
Question, if PIAA gets their reduction approved from the NFSHSA next April, does that mean we (Wisconsin) will definitely be 12 weights for the 2020-2021 season ? Or does then the WIAA have to approve it.
I approximate if we cut to 12 weights, yes there will be less byes and forfeits. There will also be about 200 less varsity wrestlers in Wisconsin (approximating losing about 100 lightweights and 100 heavier weight wrestlers from teams that have a good number of those type of wrestlers), which may cut down on fan attendance at tournies. Tournies also would run faster, which is a positive. Team duals would definitely be more interesting.
There would 32 less D1 wrestlers, 24 less D2 wrestlers, and 24 less D3 wrestlers at Individual state, effectively losing 80 wrestlers for Indy State... which would have good and bad effects... On a good side, Indy state would have an easier time shifting to double elimination for all divisions, so all wrestlers get 2 matches at state. Squeezing in another consolation round in each division at state would be definitely be feasible at that point in my opinion.
There may be less fans in attendance, as some fans just go to watch their child/nephew/niece/brother/sister/friend wrestle.
If there needs to be a change, I'm in favor of 13 weights, but I know my proposal probably doesn't matter much in the grande scheme of things.
108, 115, 123, 129, 135, 141, 147, 153, 162, 175, 190, 220, 285.
"Under the proposal, the 12 weight classes would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285."
I like the weight classes EXCEPT 170 to 190 is way to big of jump and lots of kids there under 200. Make it 172, 185 and 200 and then 285
Quote from: DocWrestling on August 21, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
"Under the proposal, the 12 weight classes would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285."
I like the weight classes EXCEPT 170 to 190 is way to big of jump and lots of kids there under 200. Make it 172, 185 and 200 and then 285
Agree, I didn't like the 170 to 190 lb jump either. I like your proposal. Back in the day was 189 then HWT i think. Obviously if there needs to be change I like my 13 weight proposal the best, but I know it doesnt carry much weight.
So if PIAA gets approved, we automatically adopt? I'm just curious, I'm not sure
I hope the NFHS adopts new weight classes but feel like that is unlikely. Would need a lot of states to want to drop weight classes AND agree to those weight classes to pass a vote.
I see the PIAA going with their own weight classes and just figuring it out if they wrestle out of state. The WIAA is just going to follow NFHS and not Pennsylvania.
I would like to see them consider the option I presented for 12 weight classes for duals. Then for individual state tournaments add 103 and 220 for 14 weight classes.
I would love to see the NFHS also come up with JV weight classes that are lighter.
I agree that shortening up in-season tournaments would be a great improvement, improving duals would help, but then go back to 14 weight classes for postseason individual tournaments.
I would also love to see them declare the weight classes as absolute for the season. No growth allowance, no extra pound for consecutive days, etc. Weigh that amount every day you wrestle!
Thank you Doc for your thoughts, it will be interesting when that time comes.
I know this is about weight classes. But, I agree with you some on the growth allowance. I would keep it, but you have to make scratch weight for 2 consecutive events. It is called a growth allowance, not a cutting allowance. On the weight classes, it's hard for me, I come from a big school with good numbers. So it's hard to see the kids that would be left out. But I do understand that a lot of schools don't have good numbers. Football now has 2 different team sizes, how about 2 for wrestling? I am not smart enough to figure that out though.
I wish they would go 105, 115, college weight classes.
The WIAA will always follow the NFHS. The WIAA is not an innovative organization. Even with women's wrestling other states are way ahead of us in sanctioning a women's state tournament. Sad that the WIAA would lag behind and not create the opportunity sooner.
At one point it was 185 then unlimited.........worked fine. I should restate, adding heavier weights did not result in bigger participation numbers.
Quote from: DarkKnight on August 21, 2019, 10:31:23 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on August 21, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
"Under the proposal, the 12 weight classes would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285."
I like the weight classes EXCEPT 170 to 190 is way to big of jump and lots of kids there under 200. Make it 172, 185 and 200 and then 285
Agree, I didn't like the 170 to 190 lb jump either. I like your proposal. Back in the day was 189 then HWT i think. Obviously if there needs to be change I like my 13 weight proposal the best, but I know it doesnt carry much weight.
So if PIAA gets approved, we automatically adopt? I'm just curious, I'm not sure
Way, way, way too high a starting weight at 110!
Quote from: DocWrestling on August 21, 2019, 07:33:22 AM
"Under the proposal, the 12 weight classes would be: 110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285."
I like the weight classes EXCEPT 170 to 190 is way to big of jump and lots of kids there under 200. Make it 172, 185 and 200 and then 285