The De Pere wrestling team is being told again they are not allowed to compete at the Sectionals or State Tournament due to a scheduling error made by their Athletic Director who has nothing to lose from the ruling. The kids, however, that have EVERYTHING to lose, who have refrained from drugs, alcohol, bad grade, or anything that could jeopardize their wreStling seasons/careers are now being punished- the seniors the most.
This ruling was originally overturned and the wrestlers were allowed to wrestle at regionals. However, when they qualified 10 for Sectionals this upcoming weekend, coaches of the other teams called with complaints forcing the WIAA to make a ruling to withhold the sectional qualifiers from further competition.
I am reaching out to you, the wrestling community, the same community that preaches that wrestling is the best sport for a child to do. The same community that preaches the lifelong lessons wrestling teaches: discipline, commitment, dedication, hard work, strength, builds character, strengthens heart, and produces all around better people. To please try and see that this technicality is not something that should punish the kids that have done nothing wrong- just showed up to the events (including the extra 1) that they were told to show up to, told to diet for, told to train for.
The beauty of wrestling is that there are two people in a ring, two people that can only do what they themselves are capable of doing, and only one, true victor, will come out with their hand raised. Politics and technicalities can't change what happens on the mat, but they can change if a wrestler is allowed to step on the mat. Which leave me with my final questions:
WHAT VALUABLE LESSON ARE WE TEACHING THE WRESTLERS OF DE PERE HIGH SCHOOL?
It's a terrible thing that happened. But don't just blame the AD, I'll be kind and say only some of that is on the coach. The way our program is run, this mistake would be totally on the coach. I don't know of one coach that doesn't know the limits on the what the kids can wrestle. In addition, I think most coaches schedule what tournaments they want to be in so they should know how many they have. It's a tremendous breakdown by the AD and the coach and the kids are being punished for it. It's too bad there isn't some other type of sanction that can be placed on the program like a loss of 2 tournaments or something for next season rather than punish the kids that have worked hard to get to this point of the year.
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 16, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
The AD should resign for such a huge mistake and the kids get to finish there decade of work that took them to this point.
Save the kids, the AD should have already resigned to demonstrate remorse and to insure the kids can full fill there dreams.
If the AD doesn't step down then it's unfortunate, but it is what it is.
Depends who is responsible coaches or AD? Both?
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
Quote from: Napoleon Dynamite on February 16, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
I feel so bad for these wrestlers. My heart hurts for them. But, rules are rules. If they are allowed to wrestle after a clear violation, undisputed violation, then a dangerous precedence is set forth by the WIAA. Tough to see a lesson in this, but these type of mistakes/oversights are made daily in life and without rules, we are a third world society. Deep down, I really see that a greater lesson is actually learned by the decision than if it was overturned. We preach about teaching athletes about life and being better people. I know that nobody wants to hear this, but in my OPINION, the WIAA got it right.
Sorry...IMO...the WIAA did not get this right...they are punishing kids for something adults did.
Cannot dispute the fact an error was made at De Pere. What I have a very hard time understanding is that if they were allowed to compete at regionals and had a written response and "plan of action" from the WIAA, is how can the WIAA go back on their initial ruling. That makes no sense. They made a decision and whether right or wrong the student athletes at De Pere should not be punished after that initial ruling.
I know there is precedent for this in volleyball, not sure about other sports. However volleyball is a team competition and besides the 16 teams left in the team state tournament, wrestling is now an individual event. I would have understood initially punishing the team from advancing to team sectionals, but for most wrestling is now an individual event. The De Pere boys do not deserve to be punished.
I do hope the WIAA actually shows some human decency at this point. I also hope that us in the wrestling community can band together and nudge the WIAA to make the right decision. Punish the team next year, but not the individuals this year after they were already allowed to compete last week.
Rules are rules...every coach is aware of these rules and it is on both the AD and the Coach...all they had to do was realize the error and sit out the conference tournament. The only way to punish the coach is to sit the kids.
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 16, 2017, 02:32:41 PM
Rules are rules...every coach is aware of these rules and it is on both the AD and the Coach...all they had to do was realize the error and sit out the conference tournament. The only way to punish the coach is to sit the kids.
I was told the coaches agreed to resign....that should have been the end of it.
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
I agree...this is hurting the athlete and not the guy that set the schedule. He is going to say he feels bad and it is unfortunate that it happened but he is still an AD. I do hope these kids will be able to compete at Sectionals. I will make a call to Wade and tell him I hope they rule in favor of the athlete
But as crossface seemed to be indicating, the coach is also responsible. (Sorry if I put words into your mouth Crossface). He needed to know the schedule and be aware of how it fit into the WIAA rules. An AD is dealing with 20 different sports. The AD cannot possibly be an expert on all of the sports. So at some point the coach needed to take a look at the schedule and say "this doesn't work". And at some point the coach needed to take ownership of the schedule of his program. There is more to being a head coach then the practice room and meets.
But the Devil's Advocate in me asks "when should the entire team be held responsible?". If the AD messes up the team shouldn't share the consequences? What if it is the coach? What if one of the athletes violates a rule that causes the team to be suspended is that fair? What if it is 5 athletes? Where is the line drawn?
I think the WIAA is in a tough situation. Do they bend to be fair to the athletes or do they hold fast to enforce their rules? Good Luck to De Pere. Hope to see those kids on the mat this weekend
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
WIAA has to come up with sanctions
against the school not the athletes. The school then needs to determine what should be done with coach and AD.
WIAA Sanctions
1. Place school on probation (2-3 years) If another occurrence during that time then an immediate 1 year WIAA revocation for all sports
2. School not allowed to host any WIAA post season event (any sport) period of 2 years
That should be enough to get the school boards attention
Don't punish the athletes
7 10 Sam Bruss De Pere 9 - 106lbs
HM HM George Lopez De Pere 11 - 113lbs
11 HM(138) Maxwell Bruss De Pere 11 - 132lbs
3 3 Trevor Turriff De Pere 12 - 160lbs
HM NR Charlie Hooyman De Pere 10 - 182lbs
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 16, 2017, 02:32:41 PM
Rules are rules...every coach is aware of these rules and it is on both the AD and the Coach...all they had to do was realize the error and sit out the conference tournament. The only way to punish the coach is to sit the kids.
De Pere does not have a conference tournment
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
WIAA has to come up with sanctions against the school not the athletes. The school then needs to determine what should be done with coach and AD.
WIAA Sanctions
1. Place school on probation (2-3 years) If another occurrence during that time then an immediate 1 year WIAA revocation for all sports
2. School not allowed to host any WIAA post season event (any sport) period of 2 years
That should be enough to get the school boards attention
Don't punish the athletes
7 10 Sam Bruss De Pere 9 - 106lbs
HM HM George Lopez De Pere 11 - 113lbs
11 HM(138) Maxwell Bruss De Pere 11 - 132lbs
3 3 Trevor Turriff De Pere 12 - 160lbs
HM NR Charlie Hooyman De Pere 10 - 182lbs
Why should athletes in other sports, be punished because the wrestling coach didn't follow the rules? The rules are clearly stated on the maximum number of competitions. The other sports at the school should not be affected or face potential consequences because of the inability for a wrestling coach to follow the rules.
Well said LaValle!
No one can dispute De Pere scheduled incorrectly. However, the WIAA made a ruling 2 weeks ago allowing them to compete in the post season tournament. To go back on their initial decision is just wrong.
Same thing happened to Westosha's volleyball team.
If it was my program, it would fall directly on my shoulders as the head coach. I would have been to blame. The kids suffer. The WIAA has to stand by the rules, as harsh as they are. They should never have allowed them to wrestle in regionals and create a larger mess.
Quote from: buc65 on February 16, 2017, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
WIAA has to come up with sanctions against the school not the athletes. The school then needs to determine what should be done with coach and AD.
WIAA Sanctions
1. Place school on probation (2-3 years) If another occurrence during that time then an immediate 1 year WIAA revocation for all sports
2. School not allowed to host any WIAA post season event (any sport) period of 2 years
That should be enough to get the school boards attention
Don't punish the athletes
7 10 Sam Bruss De Pere 9 - 106lbs
HM HM George Lopez De Pere 11 - 113lbs
11 HM(138) Maxwell Bruss De Pere 11 - 132lbs
3 3 Trevor Turriff De Pere 12 - 160lbs
HM NR Charlie Hooyman De Pere 10 - 182lbs
Why should athletes in other sports, be punished because the wrestling coach didn't follow the rules? The rules are clearly stated on the maximum number of competitions. The other sports at the school should not be affected or face potential consequences because of the inability for a wrestling coach to follow the rules.
How are athletes in other sports being punished. Have to travel for a post season event? Booster club can't run some concessions? Big deal.. This is a school infraction! Coach works for the AD and AD works for the school. Coach represents one sport and the AD represents all sports. Hold the school accountable for it's employees!
Is this truly official because they are still listed on the sectional bracket on trackwrestling?
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: buc65 on February 16, 2017, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
WIAA has to come up with sanctions against the school not the athletes. The school then needs to determine what should be done with coach and AD.
WIAA Sanctions
1. Place school on probation (2-3 years) If another occurrence during that time then an immediate 1 year WIAA revocation for all sports
2. School not allowed to host any WIAA post season event (any sport) period of 2 years
That should be enough to get the school boards attention
Don't punish the athletes
7 10 Sam Bruss De Pere 9 - 106lbs
HM HM George Lopez De Pere 11 - 113lbs
11 HM(138) Maxwell Bruss De Pere 11 - 132lbs
3 3 Trevor Turriff De Pere 12 - 160lbs
HM NR Charlie Hooyman De Pere 10 - 182lbs
Why should athletes in other sports, be punished because the wrestling coach didn't follow the rules? The rules are clearly stated on the maximum number of competitions. The other sports at the school should not be affected or face potential consequences because of the inability for a wrestling coach to follow the rules.
How are athletes in other sports being punished. Have to travel for a post season event? Booster club can't run some concessions? Big deal.. This is a school infraction! Coach works for the AD and AD works for the school. Coach represents one sport and the AD represents all sports. Hold the school accountable for it's employees!
Yes, punishing the athletes in other sports by making them travel for a post season event is punishment. If the football team or basketball earns a home game in the playoffs, they would be punished by making them travel (because of an ignorant wrestling coach) instead of playing a home game that they earned. Also, proposing that another violation would result in a revocation of 1 year for all sports would also be punishment if it were to happen.
What did they actually violate?
I looked at their schedule and if I recall I counted 8 or 9 duals (one or two may have been double dual nights) and 7 tournaments. In researching it, I noticed that another school that De Pere wrestled also had additional dual events.
Quote from: buc65 on February 16, 2017, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: buc65 on February 16, 2017, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: LaValle on February 16, 2017, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 02:45:06 PM
This is a horrible predicament. I am not fond of many of the WIAA decisions. This is obviously a clear cut violation and I guess I would lay a lot more of the blame on the coach. In order to move forward the WIAA has to have consequences. I would like to know what the consequences were when they allowed them to wrestle at regionals? What changed? I think everyone agrees on that but what should the consequences be? Give your thoughts as to what they should be. Be realistic and they should be fair and they should be stern enough to deter this from ever happening again and makes people take notice to pay more attention in the future. Put your feet in the shoes of the WIAA.
1) Wrestlers declared ineligible- WIAA choice
2) Consequences to the coach?- What can be done here? Suspension?
3) Consequences for AD? What can be done here?
Looks like Depere has 2 seniors who are the most greatly affected and one was likely to qualify and possibly win it all. Could you actually compromise and declare all wrestlers ineligible except for those 2 seniors? That could also set a bad precedent because it would make it individual rather than team
WIAA has to come up with sanctions against the school not the athletes. The school then needs to determine what should be done with coach and AD.
WIAA Sanctions
1. Place school on probation (2-3 years) If another occurrence during that time then an immediate 1 year WIAA revocation for all sports
2. School not allowed to host any WIAA post season event (any sport) period of 2 years
That should be enough to get the school boards attention
Don't punish the athletes
7 10 Sam Bruss De Pere 9 - 106lbs
HM HM George Lopez De Pere 11 - 113lbs
11 HM(138) Maxwell Bruss De Pere 11 - 132lbs
3 3 Trevor Turriff De Pere 12 - 160lbs
HM NR Charlie Hooyman De Pere 10 - 182lbs
Why should athletes in other sports, be punished because the wrestling coach didn't follow the rules? The rules are clearly stated on the maximum number of competitions. The other sports at the school should not be affected or face potential consequences because of the inability for a wrestling coach to follow the rules.
How are athletes in other sports being punished. Have to travel for a post season event? Booster club can't run some concessions? Big deal.. This is a school infraction! Coach works for the AD and AD works for the school. Coach represents one sport and the AD represents all sports. Hold the school accountable for it's employees!
Yes, punishing the athletes in other sports by making them travel for a post season event is punishment. If the football team or basketball earns a home game in the playoffs, they would be punished by making them travel (because of an ignorant wrestling coach) instead of playing a home game that they earned. Also, proposing that another violation would result in a revocation of 1 year for all sports would also be punishment if it were to happen.
It would not happen twice where I work! It is just my opinion that the school needs to be held responsible for violating rules just like an athlete or student is when they violate a rule.
Rules are rules but this falls on the AD and the Coach! They should be taking the heat on this and not the kids. Further more now by allowing them to participate at regionals and then pulling them your penalizing the rest of the kids in that regional. What happens to all the kids that missed going that would of advanced? Do they now get to go or will this sectional now have open brackets? Let the kids wrestle. It is already messed up.
I watched Turiff wrestle at OTW...the kid is a stud. DePere had a whole section with posters supporting him. No matter whos to blame for this,turiff is a senior and DESERVES his shot! He will remember this one incident for the rest of his life. Obviously, I feel terrible for all wrestlers involved, but gee wizz give them a break. Its not like they are scheduling their own matches. A top 3 wrestler out?? Total BS!!
The WIAA and DePere High School owe the D1 wrestling community an explanation, and an apology for:
1.) their inability to understand and comply by the rules of the game, and
2.) their inability to properly gather, report, and interpret the facts related to this violation, and
2.) their inability to establish an equitable and durable resolution prior to Regionals, and
3.) their negligence in impacting the outcome of this Regional/Sectional, and the opportunities of the athletes they are entrusted to lead.
According to the GBPG: " The team's schedule was adjusted to clarify which events were varsity and junior varsity to put the team within the 14-meet limit for the regular season and allow it to compete at regionals. However, eight of De Pere's sectional qualifiers are being ruled ineligible due to exceeding the 14-meet limit upon a review of the individuals' schedules towards the regular season. The individual review of wrestlers this week by the WIAA happened after it received inquiries from other member schools regarding eligibility.
Does anyone else smell something funny with that statement?
So......... the School "self-informed" the WIAA on February 3 that their kids had competed in too many events. They then adjusted the schedule to clarify which events were Varsity, and which were JV (Makes sense so far, right?) Do the WIAA and DePere High School honestly expect us to believe that in the following 7 days, there wasn't a single responsible person at the WIAA or DePere High School capable of determining WHICH KIDS had wrestled too many matches and were ineligible to compete in the Regional on Saturday...? Are you kidding me? What are we missing here? I can pull that information in 5 minutes on Track! The WIAA and DPHS then stood back and let these kids wrestle Regionals, take the podium, watch some competitors end their season/career, all without anyone asking WHICH WRESLTERS WERE IN VIOLATION? Hey, let's wait and see if anyone notices, yep, that makes sense, let's wait until after they wrestle Rgionals, then it will be easier to deal with.
At an average salary of $183,330 one would hope the top 6 executives at the WIAA, would be capable of INTERPRETING AND MAKING A JUDGEMENT ON A VIOLATION AND CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN RULES!
It shouldn't be necessary for the other member schools to follow up on decisions made by the highest governing body of Wisconsin High School Athletics, but what are you going to do when together the offending school and the WIAA cannot get it right?
My heart goes out to the DePere Wrestlers as they have been royally screwed by their AD, their coaches, and the WIAA.
WIAA, it's your move, get it right!
"If gold rusts, what then shall iron do?"
None of it can be determined because of how good or bad the team or kids on their team might be. If none of their kids had a chance to make it to state it shouldn't change the way it's ruled.
If they were allowed to wrestle at Regionals they should be allowed to continue.
I do not know the whole story but I am having an impossible time understanding how nobody in the program from AD, coaches, wrestlers or parents knew they were violating rules? Every coach should know that and I know a few of our wrestlers and certainly some of the parents would know the rule. Someone knew.
I agree the AD should have known the rules, but not all ADs are wrestling savvy and in today's world they are wearing many hats. I would put most of the blame on the coaching staff, they know the rules and in most cases would follow them more stringently than the AD. That said, I agree it should not fall upon the kids. Rules are often black and white to make it easy and eliminate the gray. Unfortunately common sense disappears when rules are made to be black and white. There has to be a way in which the school and the coaching staff have sanctions put against them. Common sense would tell you the kids are not responsible and they should not be punished for the AD and coaches bad planning. Lets hope the WIAA instills some commons sense.
This article states that 8 of the 10 sectional qualifiers were ruled ineligible. Assuming that the other two missed an event. Sounds like there is a hearing on Friday morning so not finalized.
http://wbay.com/2017/02/16/de-pere-hs-wrestlers-ruled-ineligible-pending-appeal/?cid=WBAY_TV-2
Their AD has been around since at least 2000, so it isn't like this sport is new to him.
Seems:
The decision was made by the WIAA when the rule was set, way back when.
Seems the WIAA said you can compete in the post season tournament, through Regionals, not the post season tournament in its entirety. And, it appears that is what has happened.
To be Technical, the Seniors on the team are not being "punished" more than any others, they are being affected the same. It is their Senior year, which is likely more emotional and disappointing, but the same affect.
An alternative view, the wrestlers got to participate in additional wrestling events than all others in the state through Regionals; while I see it is easy to say they are being punished, they do not get to wrestle at state, should they have qualified; there is no guarantee any individual could have made it through.
Rules are rules. Real life says people suffer due to the decisions and actions of others on a frequent and regular basis. There are consequences for decisions and actions, I should think this would be a terminable offense, for somebody. Hard to believe an AD could receive lifetime pay and benefits for allowing this to happen on his/her watch...
Totally disappointing, but would be made worse of the rules were cast aside to negatively impact competitors who followed the same set of rules and somehow all but 1 program in the state got it right...
This has to be on the coach. Coaches have to know their schedule. Then they also have to keep track of their athletes as many might bounce between JV and varsity events so not all athletes have the same. Just like many coaches have to adjust an athletes personal calendar if they qualify for JV state and that becomes and added event for those specific athletes.
Sure would be easier for coaches if we just went with a maximum matches limit before regionals.
Quote from: bigoil on February 16, 2017, 04:55:37 PM
Their AD has been around since at least 2000, so it isn't like this sport is new to him.
1 AD with a wrestling program in the entire state got it wrong, in how many years? 10? 15? Do the math on that and this AD has failed to get done 1x what has been done over 6,000 times successfully, including his/her own program in every prior year.
When I read "maybe not wrestling savvy" what I conclude is "not up to the job."
Quote from: DenBosch on February 16, 2017, 04:43:58 PM
The WIAA and DePere High School owe the D1 wrestling community an explanation, and an apology for:
1.) their inability to understand and comply by the rules of the game, and
2.) their inability to properly gather, report, and interpret the facts related to this violation, and
2.) their inability to establish an equitable and durable resolution prior to Regionals, and
3.) their negligence in impacting the outcome of this Regional/Sectional, and the opportunities of the athletes they are entrusted to lead.
According to the GBPG: " The team's schedule was adjusted to clarify which events were varsity and junior varsity to put the team within the 14-meet limit for the regular season and allow it to compete at regionals. However, eight of De Pere's sectional qualifiers are being ruled ineligible due to exceeding the 14-meet limit upon a review of the individuals' schedules towards the regular season. The individual review of wrestlers this week by the WIAA happened after it received inquiries from other member schools regarding eligibility.
Does anyone else smell something funny with that statement?
So......... the School "self-informed" the WIAA on February 3 that their kids had competed in too many events. They then adjusted the schedule to clarify which events were Varsity, and which were JV (Makes sense so far, right?) Do the WIAA and DePere High School honestly expect us to believe that in the following 7 days, there wasn't a single responsible person at the WIAA or DePere High School capable of determining WHICH KIDS had wrestled too many matches and were ineligible to compete in the Regional on Saturday...? Are you kidding me? What are we missing here? I can pull that information in 5 minutes on Track! The WIAA and DPHS then stood back and let these kids wrestle Regionals, take the podium, watch some competitors end their season/career, all without anyone asking WHICH WRESLTERS WERE IN VIOLATION? Hey, let's wait and see if anyone notices, yep, that makes sense, let's wait until after they wrestle Rgionals, then it will be easier to deal with.
At an average salary of $183,330 one would hope the top 6 executives at the WIAA, would be capable of INTERPRETING AND MAKING A JUDGEMENT ON A VIOLATION AND CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN RULES!
It shouldn't be necessary for the other member schools to follow up on decisions made by the highest governing body of Wisconsin High School Athletics, but what are you going to do when together the offending school and the WIAA cannot get it right?
My heart goes out to the DePere Wrestlers as they have been royally screwed by their AD, their coaches, and the WIAA.
WIAA, it's your move, get it right!
"If gold rusts, what then shall iron do?"
In my view the WIAA and the oft repeated average salaries of the WIAA leadership are of no consequence. The rule has been followed thousands of times successfully across the entire state, including by the program in preceding years that is now in violation at this time. The WIAA is entirely clean of any diatribe or blame, unless they change the rule to accommodate the rule breaker and negatively impact member rule followers.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 04:57:17 PM
This has to be on the coach. Coaches have to know their schedule. Then they also have to keep track of their athletes as many might bounce between JV and varsity events so not all athletes have the same. Just like many coaches have to adjust an athletes personal calendar if they qualify for JV state and that becomes and added event for those specific athletes.
Sure would be easier for coaches if we just went with a maximum matches limit before regionals.
Be careful what you wish for... The Minnesota coaches have often expressed their wish to simplify their match count structure and feel Wisconsin has a better system.
Quote from: aarons23 on February 16, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
Well I understand your compassion you have allot of it. However the kids are part of program the program was punished so they were punished. Right or wrong that is how real life is. Stinks but the WIAA might have had to conclude thier investigation and that ran past Regionals?
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on February 16, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
Well I understand your compassion you have allot of it. However the kids are part of program the program was punished so they were punished. Right or wrong that is how real life is. Stinks but the WIAA might have had to conclude thier investigation and that ran past Regionals?
Well stated.
Quote from: Dale Einerson on February 16, 2017, 04:56:38 PM
Seems:
The decision was made by the WIAA when the rule was set, way back when.
Seems the WIAA said you can compete in the post season tournament, through Regionals, not the post season tournament in its entirety. And, it appears that is what has happened.
To be Technical, the Seniors on the team are not being "punished" more than any others, they are being affected the same. It is their Senior year, which is likely more emotional and disappointing, but the same affect.
An alternative view, the wrestlers got to participate in additional wrestling events than all others in the state through Regionals; while I see it is easy to say they are being punished, they do not get to wrestle at state, should they have qualified; there is no guarantee any individual could have made it through.
Rules are rules. Real life says people suffer due to the decisions and actions of others on a frequent and regular basis. There are consequences for decisions and actions, I should think this would be a terminable offense, for somebody. Hard to believe an AD could receive lifetime pay and benefits for allowing this to happen on his/her watch...
Totally disappointing, but would be made worse of the rules were cast aside to negatively impact competitors who followed the same set of rules and somehow all but 1 program in the state got it right...
Well stated.
I don't think it can be more simple than 36 matches before sections. What some MN coaches want (the stronger programs with bigger numbers) is to be able to sit wrestlers and use more of their back ups and still control their winning.
Quote from: Joenlucy on February 16, 2017, 05:08:44 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 16, 2017, 04:57:17 PM
This has to be on the coach. Coaches have to know their schedule. Then they also have to keep track of their athletes as many might bounce between JV and varsity events so not all athletes have the same. Just like many coaches have to adjust an athletes personal calendar if they qualify for JV state and that becomes and added event for those specific athletes.
Sure would be easier for coaches if we just went with a maximum matches limit before regionals.
Be careful what you wish for... The Minnesota coaches have often expressed their wish to simplify their match count structure and feel Wisconsin has a better system.
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
Quote from: aarons23 on February 16, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
I call inappropriate term6!!!!! I cannot believe anyone of you is condoning that the wrestlers should lose their chance to go on to sectionals. I've lost tons of respect for those of you that say rules are rules.
If your boss was running a Ponzi scheme in your workplace and he had to go to jail would you if you didn't know about it? Absolutely not. How dare any of you think the kids should take the fall for this.
I don't know any of the kids personally but I do know there are some kids that work there tails off on that team.
If you are a true wrestling fan you will call that number or send an email tonight(I will do both) and plead for these kids to wrestle.
I could care less if it was a good team that would influence how my son did Saturday....I would do the same and I hope others will also.
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Doc,
Where did you find that rule regarding not wrestling past regionals? I found this on the WIAA website (see below rule 3a). Obviously, the De Pere AD and coaches are at fault, but I can't get past the WIAA allowing them to wrestle at regionals in the first place. Texted a coach from the same conference as De Pere today and he told me De Pere had the WIAA's ruling allowing them to wrestle by February 6th. (I was also told De Pere had some form of administrative punishment ... not sure what it was).
I just don't see how the WIAA can make a decision allowing them to compete and then 10 days later retract that. If true, that is terribly mishandled by the WIAA.
3. RULES GOVERNING COMPETITION
All specifications of Numbers 8 and 15 under SEASON REGULATIONS (pages 43-47) will apply with these exceptions and
additions:
Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups, and
may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to participate in
the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game.
a. A school may not compete in the tournament program if it has participated in more than 14 meets, or in more than 7
multiple school meets.
b. A school must participate in a minimum of four varsity meets in the regular season to be eligible for tournament
competition.
c. The WIAA office will furnish all participating schools necessary details to enter their athletes into the regional
tournament using the Track Wrestling program.
Note: Line ups must be entered by midnight Thursday prior to the regional tournament. Head to head competition
should be entered between midnight Thursday and midnight Friday.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 16, 2017, 05:50:00 PM
Doc,
Where did you find that rule regarding not wrestling past regionals? I found this on the WIAA website (see below rule 3a). Obviously, the De Pere AD and coaches are at fault, but I can't get past the WIAA allowing them to wrestle at regionals in the first place. Texted a coach from the same conference as De Pere today and he told me De Pere had the WIAA's ruling allowing them to wrestle by February 6th. (I was also told De Pere had some form of administrative punishment ... not sure what it was).
I just don't see how the WIAA can make a decision allowing them to compete and then 10 days later retract that. If true, that is terribly mishandled by the WIAA.
3. RULES GOVERNING COMPETITION
All specifications of Numbers 8 and 15 under SEASON REGULATIONS (pages 43-47) will apply with these exceptions and
additions:
Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups, and
may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to participate in
the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game.
a. A school may not compete in the tournament program if it has participated in more than 14 meets, or in more than 7
multiple school meets.
b. A school must participate in a minimum of four varsity meets in the regular season to be eligible for tournament
competition.
c. The WIAA office will furnish all participating schools necessary details to enter their athletes into the regional
tournament using the Track Wrestling program.
Note: Line ups must be entered by midnight Thursday prior to the regional tournament. Head to head competition
should be entered between midnight Thursday and midnight Friday.
Right? How can you let someone wrestle regionals if there is any possibility of pulling them from sectionals. Just plain stupid but Ive come to expect that type of thought process from the powers that be.
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:47:57 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on February 16, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
I call Baloney!!!!! I cannot believe anyone of you is condoning that the wrestlers should lose their chance to go on to sectionals. I've lost tons of respect for those of you that say rules are rules.
If your boss was running a Ponzi scheme in your workplace and he had to go to jail would you if you didn't know about it? Absolutely not. How dare any of you think the kids should take the fall for this.
I don't know any of the kids personally but I do know there are some kids that work there tails off on that team.
If you are a true wrestling fan you will call that number or send an email tonight(I will do both) and plead for these kids to wrestle.
I could care less if it was a good team that would influence how my son did Saturday....I would do the same and I hope others will also.
I am a true wrestling fan, whether you respect me or not. I am not condoning breaking rules and no consequences, that is what I am not condoning.
Your example regarding a Ponzi scheme is perfect, only, watch American Greed for a couple of episodes and you will see dozens to hundreds of employees that were negatively impacted due to the decisions of one or two at the top. Not to mention the rule followers that got stung...fair example with a bad interpretation...
I think you should be prepared to call or email all rule followers who miss their chance to advance to State because rule breakers are given a special advantage...
I know you all think the WIAA are Evil Overlords. They have the task of enforcing the the rules, regulations, and by laws, approved by the member schools. There is a process for situations like this. If a decision can not be made right away. More investigation is needed. the athletes are allowed to compete. That could, and I say could be the reason they were allowed to wrestle at Regionals.
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:54:00 PM
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 16, 2017, 05:50:00 PM
Doc,
Where did you find that rule regarding not wrestling past regionals? I found this on the WIAA website (see below rule 3a). Obviously, the De Pere AD and coaches are at fault, but I can't get past the WIAA allowing them to wrestle at regionals in the first place. Texted a coach from the same conference as De Pere today and he told me De Pere had the WIAA's ruling allowing them to wrestle by February 6th. (I was also told De Pere had some form of administrative punishment ... not sure what it was).
I just don't see how the WIAA can make a decision allowing them to compete and then 10 days later retract that. If true, that is terribly mishandled by the WIAA.
3. RULES GOVERNING COMPETITION
All specifications of Numbers 8 and 15 under SEASON REGULATIONS (pages 43-47) will apply with these exceptions and
additions:
Athletes who are ineligible during the WIAA Tournament (for any reason) may not appear in uniform, participate in warm-ups, and
may not participate in the awards ceremony at the WIAA Tournament. Exception: An injured athlete will be allowed to participate in
the awards ceremony provided he/she is included in the roster allotment for that game.
a. A school may not compete in the tournament program if it has participated in more than 14 meets, or in more than 7
multiple school meets.
b. A school must participate in a minimum of four varsity meets in the regular season to be eligible for tournament
competition.
c. The WIAA office will furnish all participating schools necessary details to enter their athletes into the regional
tournament using the Track Wrestling program.
Note: Line ups must be entered by midnight Thursday prior to the regional tournament. Head to head competition
should be entered between midnight Thursday and midnight Friday.
Right? How can you let someone wrestle regionals if there is any possibility of pulling them from sectionals. Just plain stupid but Ive come to expect that type of thought process from the powers that be.
I would interpret that to mean they shouldn't have been allowed to wrestle Regionals. I am surmising the discovery about the events violation did not take place until after Regionals. Is there reason to believe somebody from a competitive program was left out of Sectionals due to this?
If competing Coaches were the ones drawing attention to this then I must not be the only person asking about the affects to rule followers...Padre, if your team or individuals from your team missed a Madison trip because another team in your Sectional violated the rules and the WIAA stepped in to benefit the rule breakers instead of the rule followers, would you disrespect yourself in the morning?
Quote from: woody53 on February 16, 2017, 06:00:35 PM
I know you all think the WIAA are Evil Overlords. They have the task of enforcing the the rules, regulations, and by laws, approved by the member schools. There is a process for situations like this. If a decision can not be made right away. More investigation is needed. the athletes are allowed to compete.
So what did they find in their ongoing investigation that they didn't already know? Seems pretty cut and dry or was there an evil conspiracy by the De Pere wrestlers/coaches/AD that we don't know about it.
Just wish WIAA would have taken that much interest in Rapids back in the day. They were interested enough to move them away from West/Merrill when no one else can get moved. There were many circumstances that many of us know about that they broke rules much worse than this....so don't really want to hear it Dale. And I don't even know these kids!!!!
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle. I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.
Quote from: Dale Einerson on February 16, 2017, 05:05:33 PM
Quote from: DenBosch on February 16, 2017, 04:43:58 PM
The WIAA and DePere High School owe the D1 wrestling community an explanation, and an apology for:
1.) their inability to understand and comply by the rules of the game, and
2.) their inability to properly gather, report, and interpret the facts related to this violation, and
2.) their inability to establish an equitable and durable resolution prior to Regionals, and
3.) their negligence in impacting the outcome of this Regional/Sectional, and the opportunities of the athletes they are entrusted to lead.
According to the GBPG: " The team's schedule was adjusted to clarify which events were varsity and junior varsity to put the team within the 14-meet limit for the regular season and allow it to compete at regionals. However, eight of De Pere's sectional qualifiers are being ruled ineligible due to exceeding the 14-meet limit upon a review of the individuals' schedules towards the regular season. The individual review of wrestlers this week by the WIAA happened after it received inquiries from other member schools regarding eligibility.
Does anyone else smell something funny with that statement?
So......... the School "self-informed" the WIAA on February 3 that their kids had competed in too many events. They then adjusted the schedule to clarify which events were Varsity, and which were JV (Makes sense so far, right?) Do the WIAA and DePere High School honestly expect us to believe that in the following 7 days, there wasn't a single responsible person at the WIAA or DePere High School capable of determining WHICH KIDS had wrestled too many matches and were ineligible to compete in the Regional on Saturday...? Are you kidding me? What are we missing here? I can pull that information in 5 minutes on Track! The WIAA and DPHS then stood back and let these kids wrestle Regionals, take the podium, watch some competitors end their season/career, all without anyone asking WHICH WRESLTERS WERE IN VIOLATION? Hey, let's wait and see if anyone notices, yep, that makes sense, let's wait until after they wrestle Rgionals, then it will be easier to deal with.
At an average salary of $183,330 one would hope the top 6 executives at the WIAA, would be capable of INTERPRETING AND MAKING A JUDGEMENT ON A VIOLATION AND CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN RULES!
It shouldn't be necessary for the other member schools to follow up on decisions made by the highest governing body of Wisconsin High School Athletics, but what are you going to do when together the offending school and the WIAA cannot get it right?
My heart goes out to the DePere Wrestlers as they have been royally screwed by their AD, their coaches, and the WIAA.
WIAA, it's your move, get it right!
"If gold rusts, what then shall iron do?"
In my view the WIAA and the oft repeated average salaries of the WIAA leadership are of no consequence. The rule has been followed thousands of times successfully across the entire state, including by the program in preceding years that is now in violation at this time. The WIAA is entirely clean of any diatribe or blame, unless they change the rule to accommodate the rule breaker and negatively impact member rule followers.
Dale, with all due respect, the WIAA failed every kid, in every bracket, in which a DePere kid (in violation) wrestled last Saturday. The WIAA had a full week to investigate this. Once DePere self reported, it became the WIAA's sole responsibility to rule on the situation. The facts that existed on 02/03 haven't changed, the only thing that has changed is the member schools were forced to bring forward what the WIAA chose to ignore. They are paid handsomely to govern the management of the rules they created, and they failed. The extent to which they are compensated is (should be) commensurate with their responsibility and inherent obligation to get it right when these issues are brought to them. They failed to act appropriately, and fully, and on a timely basis when they knew this was an issue. End of story!
Name is Wade Labecki and email is wlabecki@wiaawi.org
We think the WIAA is evil overlords because they act like it too often.. what happened to common sense?? Punishing these kids serves no real purpose.. Well, it served one purpose.. it taught me as a parent that I must get up to speed on the WIAA rules for all the sports my kid participates in because it appears it's the kids who are held accountable for mistakes by coaches and AD..
A decision was made by WIAA the week before regionals to allow depere to particapate, with agreement depere would be put on probation. All information of scheduling and matches had been given to WIAA at this time. There is no new information that they have received, they are just going back on their decision.
We're not questioning the rule infraction, we were already put on probation for that. The question is how can WIAA give the ok to wrestle and now say, oops we made a mistake.
For those who say "rules are rules" how would you feel if this was your son. Is that what I should tell my two boys.
The punishment doesn't fit the infraction.
The adults made the infractions...not the kids.
If this forum is worth a hoot I thought I'd come on here and find people outraged and making calls and sending emails as we all meet on here and COULD make a difference I believed...instead I find more defending the WIAA than these kids. Crazy!!!! To be honest completely shocked Woody that you would think it was OK for them to go back on their decision when not one kid was the culprit.
Do the right thing and try to get these kids able to wrestle. You cant wait.....voices have to be spoken now.
so who were the coaches that made a big stink to have it over ruled agian
Quote from: woody53 on February 16, 2017, 05:22:46 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on February 16, 2017, 02:24:08 PM
call Wade Lubeke at the WIAA and let him know how you feel. 715-344-8580 We should not be punishing students for an adults mistake!!!
Well I understand your compassion you have allot of it. However the kids are part of program the program was punished so they were punished. Right or wrong that is how real life is. Stinks but the WIAA might have had to conclude thier investigation and that ran past Regionals?
Well stated.
How did I know you would come down on this side of the argument?
Quote from: bigoil on February 16, 2017, 04:55:37 PM
Their AD has been around since at least 2000, so it isn't like this sport is new to him.
The A.D.'s Passion is BASKETBALL not wrestling. Up until a year ago he didn't didn't know where they practiced. Once he found out, he took there wrestling room away and made it a weight lifting room.
Quote from: woody53 on February 16, 2017, 06:00:35 PM
I know you all think the WIAA are Evil Overlords. They have the task of enforcing the the rules, regulations, and by laws, approved by the member schools. There is a process for situations like this. If a decision can not be made right away. More investigation is needed. the athletes are allowed to compete. That could, and I say could be the reason they were allowed to wrestle at Regionals.
Does the WIAA have access to phones? Email? Whatever the "process" is, it's apparently way too long. This "rules are rules" argument is convenient, but incredibly dumb IMO. The kids did what they were told, the coaches made the mistake, keep the coaches out of the tournament. There, WIAA...problem solved.
Im with ya Padre....doing my small part. Besides,what are they going to do @Kaukana sectional? Have byes? That one thing in itself makes our sport look really bad!! Many schools struggle to mat 14 wrestlers during the regular season...as that thread has garnered alot of interest on this forum...but an bracket at sectionals that isnt FULL would be terrible!! Somehow get these kids on the mat! Im a rookie here and read more than type, but this cant happen to our sport.
I read the 5th place finisher will move up as of now pending the meeting.
It makes no sense that there is a retraction of the decision that allowed them to wrestle in regionals. If they would have said before regionals they couldn't wrestle, I could possibly support that despite it not being the kids fault. When this came up a week ago, I went on track and very simply counted the matches. Unless the wiaa was given false information, what changed. Again, all the information is and has been online.
It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.
However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?
If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.
Quote from: Point1223 on February 16, 2017, 08:44:05 PM
It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.
However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?
If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.
They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not. I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not. I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling. I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 08:48:48 PM
Quote from: Point1223 on February 16, 2017, 08:44:05 PM
It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.
However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?
If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.
They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not. I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not. I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling. I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.
padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 08:48:48 PM
Quote from: Point1223 on February 16, 2017, 08:44:05 PM
It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.
However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?
If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.
They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not. I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not. I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling. I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.
padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?
One of the coaches is first year varsity I believe...has coached in the program in different areas..so may have just trusted what the AD had for a schedule. I do not know...not close enough to the situation. However, I do know him a bit and know its all about the kids for him....not even about winning and losing. I'm sure he's sick to death.
I would bet there are plenty of coaches out there that just trust the schedule....many coaches Ive met through the years are not on the top of their game...maybe just lucky...maybe same thing happens elsewhere. Didn't they self report to WIAA?
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 06:10:05 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle. I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.
I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 08:48:48 PM
Quote from: Point1223 on February 16, 2017, 08:44:05 PM
It's unfortunate that the kids are paying the price for the coaches mistake.
However, If coaches schedule events to fine tune their athletes and get them better. Isn't De Pere having one extra event in their schedule unfair to the other teams, who weren't able to have one more opportunity to improve because they followed the rules?
If you have a rule, and don't enforce it or have consequences, then you don't have a rule.
They had their chance to enforce at regionals...they did not. I wouldn't have agreed with that decision either but they did not. I do know the coaches a bit and they would never endanger these kids from wrestling regionals...however I believe one of the co-head coaches at least does not work in the school...not an excuse but he may have trusted the scheduling. I'm sure they are feeling 10 times sicker than everyone else but also know they are stand up guys that would take the fall.
padre, what do you mean by "trusted the scheduling." Could you explain?
One of the coaches is first year varsity I believe...has coached in the program in different areas..so may have just trusted what the AD had for a schedule. I do not know...not close enough to the situation. However, I do know him a bit and know its all about the kids for him....not even about winning and losing. I'm sure he's sick to death.
I would bet there are plenty of coaches out there that just trust the schedule....many coaches Ive met through the years are not on the top of their game...maybe just lucky...maybe same thing happens elsewhere. Didn't they self report to WIAA?
With the exception of their conference meets, I figured most coaches dictate and create the schedule that they want to have which would mean picking the tournaments they'd like to attend so they have control over who they are wrestling, when they have off, and knowing the number of meets they have. Maybe I'm in the minority of thinking that? Do most programs have their AD's create their schedule? And a coach not on top of their game....well, that's when you start having these types of issues.
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 06:10:05 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle. I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.
I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.
NO!!!!!!!!!!! If the wrestlers did something wrong FINE!!! A kid can do drugs or steal or so many other things and be available for regionals. They didn't do anything. They showed up and made weight when told to....nothing else. To even be partial to the decision is crazy in my mind. Olympics? By this time its an individual thing and there are so many things wrong there we don't even need to talk about it. College? Who knows? But if the AD for Iowa made a mistake I would still want their wrestlers to wrestle. This has always been a sport we talk about integrity, sportsmanship and compassion....well...show these kids some compassion. They did nothing wrong!!!!
I've been around it all and have always wanted my own team/children to win if possible but would NEVER EVER take this road as a coach or a father so that their sectional was easier which is the way it sounds to me....I'm ashamed for these coaches.
Well we have to agree to disagree as in most cases the athletes suffer for the indescretions of the program coaches or recruits in some cases and even the Adminstration. You cannot have rules if those rules are bent and not upheld again they have an appeal process, hopefully if that process has not been concluded they make a good case, if not it is what it is. Seems and is harsh but that's what life deals you sometimes a big pile of dung. But rules are there and as Dale eluded too all the other programs followed the rules.
In most cases the AD just duplicates what they did the year before to make scheduling straight forward and easy. Small tweaks or changes brought about by dropping the adding a different tournament. I even our little program is very aware of this rule and follows it closely.
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 06:10:05 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle. I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.
I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.
It's not college or Olympic wrestling. It's 14-18 year old high school students. What lesson does this teach them? They are getting screwed for doing what the adults told them to do?
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 09:42:11 PM
Well we have to agree to disagree as in most cases the athletes suffer for the indescretions of the program coaches or recruits in some cases and even the Adminstration. You cannot have rules if those rules are bent and not upheld again they have an appeal process, hopefully if that process has not been concluded they make a good case, if not it is what it is. Seems and is harsh but that's what life deals you sometimes a big pile of dung. But rules are there and as Dale eluded too all the other programs followed the rules.
In most cases the AD just duplicates what they did the year before to make scheduling straight forward and easy. Small tweaks or changes brought about by dropping the adding a different tournament. I even our little program is very aware of this rule and follows it closely.
I'm not going to get into the logistics of who does and who does not "really" follow the rules as I'm not about dirty laundry. However, you are waaaaaay wrong on this. I'm a bit mystified
you think this is OK for those kids. You are from a school that I'm sure just replicates their schedule year to year as they don't worry about competition.....generally the easier the better....watch how it works out at sectionals like every other year. Those that are actually building a program may change things year to year....I know we have over the last 7-8 years and De Pere as an up and coming program may have been doing the same and a mistake was made. I'm a little surprised you would take this stance on these kids that did nothing wrong.
Quote from: wraslfan on February 16, 2017, 09:47:31 PM
Quote from: ramjet on February 16, 2017, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 06:10:05 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: padre on February 16, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
On the flip side response to the thread topic: Yes, what valuable lesson are we teaching the wrestlers if they are allowed to compete even though rules were broken? This wasn't a rule that was not widely known, it's a pretty well known rule. How long has the coach been at DePere? On the surface, the more and more I think about this, them more I think the blame rests solely on the coaching staff. I think it's unrealistic to expect the AD to know the match count of all the sports especially with how much AD's have on their plate. I feel bad for the DePere wrestlers and the other wrestlers from other schools that were not able to move on to Sectionals.
As an assistant coach I don't even pay attention to how many meets we have. It is on the coach....but c'mon...these are the employees and not the chief...they just went to the meets.
Each program is set up differently. All of the coaches on our staff know these rules, but that's just our program. With that said, I agree the Head Coach is the one that MUST know the rules inside and out. I don't disagree that the it's terrible the kids aren't allowed to wrestle. The problem is that if they go ahead and allow these kids to wrestle, they are setting a precedent for future instances in all sports. The WIAA should never have allowed them to wrestle Regionals if they were going to disqualify them for Sectionals. What information changed from the original ruling till now? Maybe the WIAA should have been a bit more aggressive in finding out the information they needed before making an initial decision knowing the timing was literally just before Regionals?
If there is another penalty that could be enforced, what could it be? I don't know if you could propose something for the next season as I'm sure somewhere along the line there would be a team or 2 that would sacrifice next season for success in their current season. I don't know if an AD losing his job would be appropriate. I would say he/she will receive their share of grief from administrators, parents, wrestlers, and their BOE. The coach resigning or being let go might be the most acceptable form of punishment.
I don't believe teams are going to try and cheat because of this if they are allowed to wrestle. I agree maybe a ban of losing 3-4 tournaments or something for next year is a good compromise.
I understand the emotion in your responses because it has the tone of compassion for the young men effected by this. What if this was college wrestling or Olympic wrestling would you have the same passion? Just wondering. I may not even agree with the rule. Yes the wrestlers suffer. Yes the program suffers. If the rules were violated and the consequence is also defined it's the responsibility of the ruling authority to enforce it. Stinks yes but we all have suffered because of the actions of others it is a lesson in life. There is a process and hopefully the School is using all the tools they can to resolve this to satisfaction of thier case. Hopefully through that process the wrestlers can compete but if the ruling and options do not go in thier favor then that's that.
It's not college or Olympic wrestling. It's 14-18 year old high school students. What lesson does this teach them? They are getting screwed for doing what the adults told them to do?
Probably not a great lesson to teach. No? And these coaches did not intentionally do so.....that I know.
I don't know the whole situation on this but it sounds like when they noticed it they came forward. That was a stand up thing to do. Wiaa made a ruling with the info given and they should stand behind it. They look foolish for changing their mind. The kids have nothing to do with scheduling. None of these kids did anything but show up and wrestle like they where told to. Until now I bet these kids didnt even know there is a standard for this. Let em wrestle.
One dual to many? It was a mistake when they realized it they turned themselves in. Probably wished they wouldn't of now. It wasn't malicious, it didn't give them any advantage over anybody. There are plenty of kids that are going to have more matches than these boys at De Pere. Did the whole team participate at all these events? Its not like they're covering up anything. Slap their hands let the boys wrestle.
wlabecki@wiaawi.org or (715) 344-8580
This forum could actually make a difference I feel
I really feel badly for all involved... I just don't see there being bad guys here. I'm pretty sure if you work for WIAA, you don't wake up one morning and say, "who can I hose today?" They are making a decision that is going to be controversial no matter how it comes down... my goodness, just look at the difference of opinions among well-meaning fans of the sport on this thread. And I get the half measure of "let them wrestle while the appeal is running." You can always stop them from going on, but if you prevent them from competing at regionals and then later decide they could have...it's too late to fix.
The kids are pretty clearly not the bad guys. Coach says we wrestle Saturday, then we wrestle Saturday.
As for the coaches, I have a lot of compassion for them as well. Without seeing the schedule layed out from their point of view, it's tough to know what events they thought were JV and what events were varsity. I will say our own schedule was completely jacked up this year. We had a dual postponed and a tournament cancelled due to weather. We lost 3 or more days of practice due to weather - I'm sure other teams had duals cancelled or postponed on those nights. Then we had a conference team drop their varsity program which left everyone one dual short. I also had my AD make a simple error about a date conflict that lead to us planning to send our jv to a varsity tournament... when the snowstorm cancelled Marty Loy, we went back to sending our varsity.
My point is... the coaches by all accounts made a mistake, but I certainly understand how it could happen.
It's a pretty awful thing... I personally want to see the kids wrestle. If they knock a kid out who might have made it through otherwise, that may not be 100% fair, but at least a wrestling match determined the outcome.
It is my understanding, that a mistake was made in De Pere by adults that very much care for the kids they represent/coach and for "sport" in general... One too many tournaments wrestled - PS: did you know a multi-dual (two varsity matches) on a Tuesday/Thursday night is a tournament by rule? I did, but guessing that some might not - or didn't understand how this happened.
It would be a tragedy for the WIAA to punitively punish the kids for this...
Please also keep in mind, that it would not help "sport" for De Pere to lose these caring adults that pour their souls into what they do for the kids... These are good people that made a mistake... It would not be good for "sport" to run them off so fast, cause guess what - folks aren't lining up to take over this responsibility... Losing either would be a setback to "wrestling"... You can rant and rave on this forum that this situation is their fault - but do you really think they don't know or are trying to avoid accountability somehow? C'mon - they're non-perfect adults... I can't cast a stone...
I pray the WIAA can come to a resolution that is not punitive to the kids...
What would be so wrong with taking away dual meets/tournaments next year or the next few years. This way the kids can still wrestle this tournament out, yet their program can suffer the consequences in the future. Just a possible punishment below
2018 3 less tournaments
2019 2 less tournaments
2020 1 less tournament
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 16, 2017, 10:09:06 PM
Best quote on this so far.
"All the kids did was show up and make weight"
THE WIAA HAS LOST ITS WAY!!
Listen WIAA -- it's about the kids.
I hope these family's have good attorneys because this is a "reliance lawsuit" case if I ever saw one.
I hope someone has reached out to the national media to put the WIAA back in the spot light like they were a year ago.
They've definitely opened themselves to litigation.
I'm just saying...send an email all....lots of post season traffic on here....may help.
Just hit send on this email:
Mr Labecki,
You certainly don't need my opinion about the De Pere wrestling situation, but I wanted to share it with you anyway.
I would stand behind the WIAA allowing the full team to compete at sectionals.
The intent of the rule is a level playing field. I believe the De Pere wrestlers being in the sectional tournament comes the closest to providing that. If some of the De Pere athletes advance at the expense of athletes whose program was not in violation, that is not 100% fair, but at least the advancement was decided by a wrestling match, not in a board room.
De Pere self reported (according to news sources). That is the right thing to do and shows that an honest mistake was made. The competitive advantage these athletes gained by representing their school in one too many events is negligible compared to the advantage every other athlete will receive if the De Pere wrestlers are replaced by 5th placed finishers - or not replaced at all.
I don't envy you your decision. Perhaps involve the coaches advisory committee or at least ask for their recommendation? If they are overwhelmingly in favor of one action or the other, that might show how the member schools as a group would want this handled.
Thank you for the job you do. It certainly can't be fun on days like today.
Respectfully,
John Hatfield
Random Lake High School
Head Wrestling Coach
Sent from my iPhone
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 16, 2017, 10:09:06 PM
Best quote on this so far.
"All the kids did was show up and make weight"
THE WIAA HAS LOST ITS WAY!!
Listen WIAA -- it's about the kids.
I hope these family's have good attorneys because this is a "reliance lawsuit" case if I ever saw one.
I hope someone has reached out to the national media to put the WIAA back in the spot light like they were a year ago.
I first want to say sorry to good people like Woody that busts his hind end doing the right thing and along with several other people involved in high school sports.
now on to what I believe, the WIAA does not have the kids best interest in mind. In the past several years it is all about making money and I have heard that from WIAA people.
Getyours, I am not ripping on you by quoting your post, I more or less wanted to state what I believe about the WIAA.
also, Mr Labecki taught and coached in my district for about 25 years. I had him as a teacher/coach and then partner in adult beverage games. He is going to make the black and white choice 99% of the time and in this case the rules were broken and punishment will be had.
It is a terrible thing for the kids because like someone said all they did is show up and make weight. Look what they get.
I cannt heave all the blame on the coaches either. Sure some places the coaches make the schedule but their is checks and balances in place to make sure a coach has made the right choice. That ulitmate choice falls on the shoulders of the AD. The AD is in charge of ALL programs and he should have double checked what the schedule was and followed up on this.
Yep, we can talk about not cutting weights, giving more chances to kids, expanding the matches at state but in one over look all those problems go out the window with a simple over sights and bam the kids dont even get a chance to do squat!!!!!!!!
This decsion should have been done before regionals, how about the kids that lost first round to those that cannt go? not only are their 10 West De Pere wrestlers out of the mix, there is another 10 kids that wrestling career hangs in the balance. When you include the school of all thses kids and the parents and families, the WIAA failed to make a proper choice for all high school aged kids and thats the bottom line because the littleguy said so!!!!!!!!!!
Been a weird "snow-day" kinda year. I could see me making this mistake.
Why should the wrestlers be punished, including incoming high schoolers who weren't even there during the infraction. This is not like the NCAA with big revenue and such.
Quote from: WINfan on February 16, 2017, 10:13:00 PM
What would be so wrong with taking away dual meets/tournaments next year or the next few years. This way the kids can still wrestle this tournament out, yet their program can suffer the consequences in the future. Just a possible punishment below
2018 3 less tournaments
2019 2 less tournaments
2020 1 less tournament
Thank you to all who have been supporting DePere wrestling. The support, from not only the community, but from the competing coaches and parents has been overwhelming.
Life is about learning.... lesson learned.....let them wrestle.
To the coaches/parents that have made the complaint, what lesson have you taught your wrestler? You still have time to call WIAA.
The WIAA is in a tough spot here. It seems they have a tough choice and I am sure they are getting counsel from lawyers which always seem to make things worse with threats. A lawsuit could come from either side of their decision.
1) Declare the wrestlers ineligible and follow the rule to the letter of the law. This would be the easiest to defend in court if sued.
2) Allow the wrestlers to compete as it is most definitely in the best interest of those kids but then have to deal with the ramifications. If this is chosen, they will have to basically get rid of the 7-7 rule immediately because it will never be enforceable again. If they did keep the rule, they would just be sued next time something happened and they tried to enforce it.
OPTION 3! There has to be another option like many have said whether it is ramifications to the coach and AD which I am sure would gladly take the punishment over the kids or reduce the events for next year. No these individuals should not lose their jobs. This is not a blatant mistake.
The problem I see is the precedent that was set prior with Westosha volleyball team. My problem with all this is that the legal system and the threat of lawsuits ends up driving these decisions rather than some honest common sense on a case by case basis.
So why do we have the 7/7 rule? What if we let coaches and AD's schedule as many events as they want in all sports?
Is it a safety issue for the student athletes? Is it a fairness issue? I know in other sports many teams don't even come close to the maximum number of contests?
Why don't we let a school decide how best they want to prepare their team for the postseason or how busy of a schedule they want to run that excites the kids but does not cross the line of burning them out?
WIAA would be better served to get out of so many rules and regulations because they just get more complicated each year. Time for the WIAA to simplify
It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.
I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.
If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.
It's a mess. That's for sure.
Quote from: crossface21 on February 16, 2017, 02:14:51 PM
It's a terrible thing that happened. But don't just blame the AD, I'll be kind and say only some of that is on the coach. The way our program is run, this mistake would be totally on the coach. I don't know of one coach that doesn't know the limits on the what the kids can wrestle. In addition, I think most coaches schedule what tournaments they want to be in so they should know how many they have. It's a tremendous breakdown by the AD and the coach and the kids are being punished for it. It's too bad there isn't some other type of sanction that can be placed on the program like a loss of 2 tournaments or something for next season rather than punish the kids that have worked hard to get to this point of the year.
This is the most reasonable solution in my opinion. To not let the kids wrestle in the most important tournaments of the season is a travesty. This is not the NCAA where an athletic program can make a great deal of money for a University or College, therefore that athletic program should be punished for violations in the athletic code (recruitment violations etc...). This is high school for goodness sake!
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.
I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.
If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.
It's a mess. That's for sure.
The kid who in theory loses to a DePere kid has a legitimate beef? Give me a break. Why? Because the Depere kid might have wrestled a few more matches this season? There are plenty of schools that wrestle more matches than other schools in the state. There are also schools fortunate enough to wrestle against great competition during the season, arguably making them better prepared for this part of the season (Stoughton, Kaukauna...). Should a wrestler that loses in sectionals to a wrestler from one of these programs (there will be many that do) have an equal amount of 'beef'?
This whole situation really sucks and I'm afraid it's not going to turn out well for the kids. The WIAA has already set a precedence with this very same ruling against the Westosha volleyball team, just 4 months ago. If they let De Pere wrestle, which I'm all for, they are setting themselves up for a potential lawsuit from the Westosha program.
This is a compete and utter mess, and In my opinion, at the end of the day the AD needs to take the final blame. The AD signs off on the schedule, He/She clearly didn't even give it a second look.
http://www.tmj4.com/sports/high-school/westosha-central-volleyball-team-appealing-postseason-ban
The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South. That would put him under the 14 competitions. I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 08:24:54 AM
The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South. That would put him under the 14 competitions. I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.
This seems to be true and hopefully is a technicality to allow the great majority of kids to wrestle but again what another silly complicated WIAA rule. A forfeit in a dual counts as a weigh-in, counts as a win, but does not count as a competition?
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 08:24:54 AM
The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South. That would put him under the 14 competitions. I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.
That rule states you only DO NOT count if you don't compete OR receive forfeit.
f. If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs
in
but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition
maximums
8 kids had 15 events, 2 who missed some duals had 14 & 12. WIAA really has to follow the rules of the book on this one. I know it sucks, but it's not "Season Recommendations" it's "Season Regulations"
I have heard that Wade is pretty black and white, which you probably need to be. I know it sucks for the kids, but it's a rule that has to be followed. Coach should've known better. I would think that most coaches track this.
Quote from: MARSHDOC on February 17, 2017, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.
I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.
If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.
It's a mess. That's for sure.
The kid who in theory loses to a DePere kid has a legitimate beef? Give me a break. Why? Because the Depere kid might have wrestled a few more matches this season? There are plenty of schools that wrestle more matches than other schools in the state. There are also schools fortunate enough to wrestle against great competition during the season, arguably making them better prepared for this part of the season (Stoughton, Kaukauna...). Should a wrestler that loses in sectionals to a wrestler from one of these programs (there will be many that do) have an equal amount of 'beef'?
What I mean is that if a rule is determined to have been broken, and an athlete is competing "illegally" according to the current rules, the loser of that match has a legitimate beef. Yes. Legally.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 08:37:25 AM
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 08:24:54 AM
The forfeit rule posted by Cedarboy should change things. I only looked at Trevor Turriff, but he received a forfeit against Manitowoc and Sheboygan South. That would put him under the 14 competitions. I would guess the same would be true for other kids, but since I am working I don't have time to check all the De Pere kids.
This seems to be true and hopefully is a technicality to allow the great majority of kids to wrestle but again what another silly complicated WIAA rule. A forfeit in a dual counts as a weigh-in, counts as a win, but does not count as a competition?
My head is spinning with all these rules. I thank you and the wrestlers should thank people like you for actually knowing all the details. You may help out a few of the kids despite a negative ruling.
I made my call to Wade Lubeke in support of the DePere kids. I feel sorry for the man as he is truly stuck between a rock and a hard place. The decision is out of his hands and will be decided by the board.
Quote from: cedarboy1 on February 17, 2017, 07:14:34 AM
According to section f. of the individual participation limits, forfeits do not count. Based on trackwrestling results, this would only disqualify 2 DePere wrestlers. Hope I am reading that correctly.
a. A wrestler is not eligible to compete or participate in any pre-meet activity until they have had a minimum weight determined and the school has received a printout from the WIAA office so indicating.
b . A student is limited to representing his school one time in a dual meet, including varsity, nonvarsity, exhibitions and forfeits.
c . No wrestler shall represent his school in more than one weight class in any meet or compete in more than five matches (championship or consolation) in any one day.
d . A student participating at the nonvarsity level in a dual meet may wrestle a maximum of 15 minutes (not including overtimes) provided: (1) No match is scheduled for longer than five minutes. (2) Results of none of these matches are counted toward varsity records.
e . A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and no more than seven of the 14 may be varsity level multipleschool meets (involving total of more than two teams) except, as described in 6. a.
f . If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition maximums
Incorrect interpretation cedarboy. You cannot compete or receive a forfeit if you don't want it to count as an event. If you receive a forfeit, you get a win and team points. That absolutely counts as an event.
QuotePadre- I'm not going to get into the logistics of who does and who does not "really" follow the rules as I'm not about dirty laundry. However, you are waaaaaay wrong on this. I'm a bit mystified
you think this is OK for those kids. You are from a school that I'm sure just replicates their schedule year to year as they don't worry about competition.....generally the easier the better....watch how it works out at sectionals like every other year. Those that are actually building a program may change things year to year....I know we have over the last 7-8 years and De Pere as an up and coming program may have been doing the same and a mistake was made. I'm a little surprised you would take this stance on these kids that did nothing wrong.
So you are out of control emotionally about this and clearly ARE NOT "about the kids". In fact based on your comments putting down the kids up here I guess you are every much the jerk as many die scribe you as so I will no longer defend you and you're misplaced passion.
The reason that is evident is your disparaging remarks about a group of wrestler and program above. I guess you feel if you demean anyone who disagrees with you and take it up kids it will fix the DePere situation? It is obvious to me you have never been or never could be part of Board that has to make de is ions based on the evidence in front of you and you have to deal with the facts as they are presented not on conjecture and emotion. I had far more respect for you but frankly now I see the arrogance and unreasonable emotional behavior you are capapable of.
I think it's hilarious that so many come to the table to defend the AD and Coaches that messed this up for those kids. I think it's a sign of a weakening society and attitude to continually water down rules so they fall on favor of the rule breakers.
Interesting a certain central Wisconsin program got into a little hot water and many on this site celebrated the chastising and action of the WIAA. What's different about DePere is it that they are not a power house program so let them break the rules?
I can absolutely see why they allowed them to wrestle the Regionals; If they had not concluded the process or investigation and had not allowed them it would be impossible to change that outcome. In other words they cannot go back in time that might have unduly punished them. But by allowing them to wrestle and then finish the ruling or process and then take action on the finding of that process was proper way to conduct it. Because let's say they ruled in favor of DePere but did not allow them to wrestle Regionals? As it stand s based on the ruling they will not advance. Would everyone be happier if they just sanctioned them next year for the entire year?
It is AD and coaches responsibility to see that the rules are followed they are adults accepting that responsibility when they sign the contract and the School agrees to be part of the WIAA. Yup stinks for the kids but life does that sometimes.
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 17, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Everything is based on the individual. A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve. Am I correct?
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 08:57:12 AM
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 17, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Everything is based on the individual. A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve. Am I correct?
Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption. Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2017, 08:43:50 AM
Quote from: MARSHDOC on February 17, 2017, 08:14:06 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on February 17, 2017, 07:22:39 AM
It's not going to change IMO. Precedent has been set, and it was this year.
I'm with Doc on this one. If they change it, the rule just goes away. The WIAA sets itself up for future mess if they change the ruling.
If the DePere kids wrestle and qualify for state, no one thinks that the kid who could have been to state has beef? That kid did follow the rules.
It's a mess. That's for sure.
The kid who in theory loses to a DePere kid has a legitimate beef? Give me a break. Why? Because the Depere kid might have wrestled a few more matches this season? There are plenty of schools that wrestle more matches than other schools in the state. There are also schools fortunate enough to wrestle against great competition during the season, arguably making them better prepared for this part of the season (Stoughton, Kaukauna...). Should a wrestler that loses in sectionals to a wrestler from one of these programs (there will be many that do) have an equal amount of 'beef'?
What I mean is that if a rule is determined to have been broken, and an athlete is competing "illegally" according to the current rules, the loser of that match has a legitimate beef. Yes. Legally.
Your point is well taken and I apologize for coming across a bit aggressive in my defense of the Depere kids. Yes it is not legal, yes they have a beef, but in my opinion it is a very weak beef as to why a wrestler didn't deserve to make it to State. If my son loses to a Depere wrestler and tells me he deserves a higher spot on the podium because the DePere kid shouldn't have been there I'll probably backhand him.
Now if athletes from a certain program were found to be using PEDs, working out with college programs during the season, found to be forging their birth certificates and wrestling at the age of 20 etc I would most definitely have a beef.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 08:57:12 AM
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 17, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Everything is based on the individual. A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve. Am I correct?
Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption. Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.
I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy
Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.
Quote from: Stripes on February 17, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: cedarboy1 on February 17, 2017, 07:14:34 AM
According to section f. of the individual participation limits, forfeits do not count. Based on trackwrestling results, this would only disqualify 2 DePere wrestlers. Hope I am reading that correctly.
a. A wrestler is not eligible to compete or participate in any pre-meet activity until they have had a minimum weight determined and the school has received a printout from the WIAA office so indicating.
b . A student is limited to representing his school one time in a dual meet, including varsity, nonvarsity, exhibitions and forfeits.
c . No wrestler shall represent his school in more than one weight class in any meet or compete in more than five matches (championship or consolation) in any one day.
d . A student participating at the nonvarsity level in a dual meet may wrestle a maximum of 15 minutes (not including overtimes) provided: (1) No match is scheduled for longer than five minutes. (2) Results of none of these matches are counted toward varsity records.
e . A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and no more than seven of the 14 may be varsity level multipleschool meets (involving total of more than two teams) except, as described in 6. a.
f . If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition maximums
Incorrect interpretation cedarboy. You cannot compete or receive a forfeit if you don't want it to count as an event. If you receive a forfeit, you get a win and team points. That absolutely counts as an event.
Yep, I did. Read it 20 times before I posted it and came up with the same. Now I see it differently. Have removed the post.
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 09:16:01 AM
I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy
Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.
I believe to do that you had to file proper "Exceptional Athlete" paperwork. Plus it has certain restrictions. See below
The exceptional athlete provision recognizes only invitations to international competitions sanctioned by each sport's identified National Governing Body (NGB) and Olympic Development Programs (ODP) in representing the USA as eligible for an exceptional athlete waiver. This waiver will allow non-school competition for a qualifying exceptional athlete during the regular season and during the WIAA Tournament Series.
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 08:57:12 AM
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 17, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Everything is based on the individual. A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve. Am I correct?
Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption. Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.
I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy
Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.
Bulldog....this is incorrect. If one kid weighs in it counts against his max...not the teams
At what point do we choose which rules to enforce and which ones are not important to enforce,(eye of the beholder). WE have all been on both sides of the issue; Bad call your way or good call my way. The can of worms effect; But you let them do it why can't I? Rules can be changed, there is a process. The process of enforcement can handled better or more consistent but you can't change the rules in the middle of the game and expect any good to come out of it.
Thanks for the correction/clarification Point and foose.
Quote from: getyourpoints on February 17, 2017, 09:25:58 AM
I dint realize that the WIAA resently just screwed over a top ranked girls volleyball team for the same infractions. So as much as I disagree with how the WIAA handled this situation they have a track record of punching kids for AD mistakes.
in the future I recommend we as parents all sit down with are AD's and Coaches and hold them accountable for scheduling and a rules meeting. Now that I understand a coaching or an admistative mistake can cost my child to be Eliminated from completing his goals I will be keeping a very close eye on our AD and coaches and expect a lot more communication.
The WIAA is dictating that parents now need to have a much bigger role.
There is process to apply to get rules changed and appeal decisions by the WIAA? But you are correct parents need to make it known that rules need to be followed.
I will tell you this not as an excuse for anyone but as point of information; in small programs and Districts the postion of AD comes in many forms and the time vs pay is pretty pathetic. So too much pressure on the AD in small Diatricts will leave you without an AD. In some schools the Princple may take it on as an additional responsibility. However in those cases thier responsibility as part of the Admin team comes first. I am not speaking to larger programs but just trying to make you aware the approach needs to be one of cooperation and help not with a 4x4 and a rope. Actually in many cases the position of coach falls under the same situation most if not all coaches in smaller programs are doing this for the love of the sport and the wrestlers NOT the money. Again this IS NOT AN EXCUSE just making sure people have the right perspective. I also absolutely encourage you as parent to get involved and ask question about the rules. Parental involvement and community involvement is paramount to a successful program.
Quote from: Point1223 on February 17, 2017, 09:25:33 AM
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 08:57:12 AM
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on February 17, 2017, 08:42:51 AM
Time to re-write the 7-7 rule to be more specific...
-Topics that need to be covered better...what is considered a dual vs tourney (tri vs quad)
-How can a school deem a varsity tournament varsity reserve for there schedule?
*I also put forth the idea that all teams should be allowed 8 tournaments and that the 7 tournaments allowed per individual. This will allow...
1- Teams to be able to send their "studs" to tournaments like the cheesehead, bi-state, OTW ect well not having to have their sub 500's go to such a tournament just to go 0-2...this would allow high level wrestlers to get their high quality competitioin without sacrificing 3 matches for the rest of the team.
2- It would also allow for flexibility for kids to miss a tournament to Take the ACT
3- Allow for one more chance for a wrestler who was injured to get his tournaments.
Make us coaches fill out a spreadsheet with our kids and what tournaments they competed in (most of us already do this to make sure they have not wrestled to many because of JV) Then make us submit that to the WIAA...
Also, Pay me a salary and I'll check every wrestling schedule in the state to ensure this doesn't happen again! ;D
Everything is based on the individual. A team could enter a varsity tourney every weekend but the wrestlers can only compete in 7-7 so it does not really matter if they are JV, varsity, or varsity reserve. Am I correct?
Yes, I believe you are correct with that assumption. Just have to make sure each wrestler is only in 7 multi events and 14 overall.
I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy
Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.
Bulldog....this is incorrect. If one kid weighs in it counts against his max...not the teams
Incorrect. A team may only schedule 7 varsity multiples and 8 non-varsity multiples, and each individual can only participate in a seven total multiples (whether varsity or non-varsity). The schedules must be published clearly stating which are varsity and which are non-varsity competitions. If one wrestler competes as a varsity wrestler in a tournament, it counts as one of the 7 varsity multiples for the team.
QuoteQuote from: bulldog on Today at 11:16:01 AM
I could be wrong on this but I thought if ONE wrestler from the team competes in a tournament that tournament counts towards the entire team. I thought I asked Wade about this once but it was some years ago so my memory may be foggy
Okay...how about this...the WIAA institued something this year where "any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two nonschool contests during the regular season in the same sport. The nonschool opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport."...so is this a "loophole"? Could the extra matches be counted as nonschool contest? I don't know enough of this rule to know if it works or not.
I believe to do that you had to file proper "Exceptional Athlete" paperwork. Plus it has certain restrictions. See below
The exceptional athlete provision recognizes only invitations to international competitions sanctioned by each sport's identified National Governing Body (NGB) and Olympic Development Programs (ODP) in representing the USA as eligible for an exceptional athlete waiver. This waiver will allow non-school competition for a qualifying exceptional athlete during the regular season and during the WIAA Tournament Series.
This is the old rule. The new rule (in addition to the exceptional athlete waiver) allows any athlete to compete in non-school competitions with prior school approval (no WIAA permission/ no invitation/ no elite athlete status necessary). The two non-school event provision can in no way be applied to this situation anyhow, as the events were all clearly school-sponsored.
This not the WIAA. It is a governing body in charge of enforcing that bodies rules. If you join an association of any kind and someone breaks the rules it is the responsibility of that association to enforce them. Now how that enforcement comes down is also up to the members of the association. The WIAA is a body made up of members. Those members vote on the rules of competition. I do not disagree this is a bad deal for those involved but if the rules are made to fit each individual situation then nobody knows what the rules are. I have many disagreements with how the WIAA does things, but I do know that those people try to do the best they can to make things fair for all. Sometimes we don't agree on what is fair.
Ty...now I am confused. I know you have a ton of background on these rules so I appreciate your input. Are you saying that I was correct? That is one athlete competes in a tournament it counts for a tournament for the entire team?
And are you saying that if the school would have indicated the extra tournament was NOT a school sponsored event it would have been okay based on the new "nonschool contest" rule?
Sorry Ty, but that is wrong.
Teams schedule multiple varsity tournaments on the same day and send a Varsity Reserve to one and their Varsity to another. If they are both varisty tournaments, they dont count as two competitions for each kid. It will count as ONE in whatever one they wrestle in.
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
Ty...now I am confused. I know you have a ton of background on these rules so I appreciate your input. Are you saying that I was correct? That is one athlete competes in a tournament it counts for a tournament for the entire team?
And are you saying that if the school would have indicated the extra tournament was NOT a school sponsored event it would have been okay based on the new "nonschool contest" rule?
Bulldog,
I missed first paragraph
The rule allows any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two non-school contests during the regular season in the same sport. The non-school opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport.
But it sounds like you need prior approval and has to be a NON SCHOOL event which I don't think this would work for.
Quote from: Point1223 on February 17, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
Sorry Ty, but that is wrong.
Teams schedule multiple varsity tournaments on the same day and send a Varsity Reserve to one and their Varsity to another. If they are both varisty tournaments, they dont count as two competitions for each kid. It will count as ONE in whatever one they wrestle in.
Quote6. MAXIMUM ALLOWED MEETS
a. The maximum number of meets is 14. No more than seven of the 14 may be multiple-school meets (involving more than two
teams). Except that a school may schedule double duals or triple duals beyond the maximum of seven multiple-school meets,
BUT a double dual must replace two of the 14 allowed exposures and a triple dual must replace three of the 14 allowed
exposures. Schedules of all teams should be clearly published and separated by level for each team sponsored by a school.
Note 1: JV teams may schedule a maximum of 8 multiple school events and may allow inclusion of additional schools
in (JV) dual meets in effort to provide competition opportunity for all JV wrestlers.
Note 2: Conferences which experience low participation numbers at 2 or more conference member schools may apply to
the WIAA to be allowed to modify maximums to include 8 multiple school events and 6 duals. The additional
multiple school event must be held within the conference and involve only the same conference member schools.
b. Conference tournaments must be included in count of regular season maximums.
c. A female wrestler may participate in "female - only" meets, counting as one of her individual 14 exposures but not
counting toward the team total.
d. No meet may continue more than two days.
e. No meet may be scheduled (but a meet may be rescheduled if postponed) after any of the schools involved in the
rescheduled event has begun WIAA tournament series competition.
f. The WIAA tournament series is not part of the maximum allowed meets.
g. Competition involving students not eligible for the school's official interscholastic teams (e.g. Grade 7-8 students) must
be conducted at a time other than during the period (start to finish) of a meet.
h. Except for events held in bordering states (MN, IL, MI and IA), no approval shall be provided for more than one out-of-state
competition, event and/or scrimmage per team each school season.
7. INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPATION LIMITATIONS
a. A wrestler is not eligible to compete or participate in any pre-meet activity until they have had a minimum weight
determined and the school has received a printout from the WIAA office so indicating.
b. A student is limited to representing his school one time in a dual meet, including varsity, nonvarsity, exhibitions and
forfeits.
c. No wrestler shall represent his school in more than one weight class in any meet or compete in more than five matches
(championship or consolation) in any one day.
d. A student participating at the nonvarsity level in a dual meet may wrestle a maximum of 15 minutes (not including
overtimes) provided:
(1) No match is scheduled for longer than five minutes.
(2) Results of none of these matches are counted toward varsity records.
e. A student may not participate in more than 14 meets, and no more than seven of the 14 may be varsity level multipleschool
meets (involving total of more than two teams) except, as described in 6. a.
f. If a wrestler is weighed in it is an official weigh-in for minimum weight gain/loss purposes. However, if a wrestler weighs
in but does not compete (or receive a forfeit) the weigh-in alone is not counted against the wrestlers individual competition
maximums.
g. Only students eligible for the school's official interscholastic teams may participate on an exhibition or similar basis
The problem is people are abusing the use of "varsity reserve" scheduling. If a school sponsors a varsity reserve team, their schedule must be published separately and identified as such. Programs sending their 4-5 good kids to, say, Bi-States and their other 10 varsity wrestlers to a different varsity tournament as "varsity reserve" are playing with fire and will eventually get burned.
Why has no one mentioned past precedent? This is not the first time this has happened. I remember 1985 it happened, and I remember the details very well. The WIAA at that time decided to take away the individual's points at the last regular season tournament (conference) instead of further penalizing the individual or the school.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 10:15:51 AM
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
Ty...now I am confused. I know you have a ton of background on these rules so I appreciate your input. Are you saying that I was correct? That is one athlete competes in a tournament it counts for a tournament for the entire team?
And are you saying that if the school would have indicated the extra tournament was NOT a school sponsored event it would have been okay based on the new "nonschool contest" rule?
Bulldog,
I missed first paragraph
The rule allows any individual student-athlete, with school approval, to participate in up to two non-school contests during the regular season in the same sport. The non-school opportunities will not count against the individual maximum in that sport.
But it sounds like you need prior approval and has to be a NON SCHOOL event which I don't think this would work for.
"Non-school" means no schools are involved.
i.e. This rule doesn't allow for Wisconsin wrestlers to wrestle "unattached" at the Ironman or Beast of the East, since those tournaments involve school-sponsored teams.
The point I am referencing is 6E.
A STUDENT may not participate in more....
hence the individual wrestler has his # of weigh ins counted against him, not the teams number of tournaments.
I get all the "rules are rules" folks, and their logical position on this situation.
People would be furious with me, if I were in charge. No question. I would totally let the kids wrestle. Big fan of grace, knowing I often need it.
I'm so, so sorry for all the people negatively affected by this. I know in the grand scheme of things, this isn't tragic. But, most of us parents know if this were our wrestler, it would definitely feel like a tragedy. Hoping for some last minute miracle for these kids, and their families.
Quote from: Mack on February 17, 2017, 10:33:52 AM
I get all the "rules are rules" folks, and their logical position on this situation.
People would be furious with me, if I were in charge. No question. I would totally let the kids wrestle. Big fan of grace, knowing I often need it.
I'm so, so sorry for all the people negatively affected by this. I know in the grand scheme of things, this isn't tragic. But, most of us parents know if this were our wrestler, it would definitely feel like a tragedy. Hoping for some last minute miracle for these kids, and their families.
But what about the 8 kids and their coaches that followed the rules.......isn't it just as tragic that a person who didn't follow the rules gets in. Don't those kids deserve it just as much?
Quote from: Point1223 on February 17, 2017, 10:33:33 AM
The point I am referencing is 6E.
A STUDENT may not participate in more....
hence the individual wrestler has his # of weigh ins counted against him, not the teams number of tournaments.
You cannot discount 6A (a team may not schedule more than...) in the application of 6E, otherwise there would be no point in distinguishing rule 6C (regarding female tournaments not counting toward teams' totals).
This is clearly becoming an issue, since the WIAA put the emphasis in the rule book on 12/15/16 regarding the necessity to separate and publish schedules for each team (varsity, varsity reserve, jv).
Hopefully this unfortunate situation will bring on the implementation of the individual match limit.
I know this does not fix the issue at hand but how about making it less complicated going forward? This all sounds ridiculously complicated. While I know Ramjet thinks I am stupid, I'm not and I find the WIAA rules about this really convoluted.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: Mack on February 17, 2017, 10:33:52 AM
I get all the "rules are rules" folks, and their logical position on this situation.
People would be furious with me, if I were in charge. No question. I would totally let the kids wrestle. Big fan of grace, knowing I often need it.
I'm so, so sorry for all the people negatively affected by this. I know in the grand scheme of things, this isn't tragic. But, most of us parents know if this were our wrestler, it would definitely feel like a tragedy. Hoping for some last minute miracle for these kids, and their families.
But what about the 8 kids and their coaches that followed the rules.......isn't it just as tragic that a person who didn't follow the rules gets in. Don't those kids deserve it just as much?
TRAGIC!! ??? COME ON MAN!!
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 17, 2017, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: Mack on February 17, 2017, 10:33:52 AM
I get all the "rules are rules" folks, and their logical position on this situation.
People would be furious with me, if I were in charge. No question. I would totally let the kids wrestle. Big fan of grace, knowing I often need it.
I'm so, so sorry for all the people negatively affected by this. I know in the grand scheme of things, this isn't tragic. But, most of us parents know if this were our wrestler, it would definitely feel like a tragedy. Hoping for some last minute miracle for these kids, and their families.
But what about the 8 kids and their coaches that followed the rules.......isn't it just as tragic that a person who didn't follow the rules gets in. Don't those kids deserve it just as much?
TRAGIC!! ??? COME ON MAN!!
Sorry, I was using the wording from above.....I should have stated it just as big of a "Tragedy" to those kids that don't get in by following the rules.
Just an FYI....Word is the appeal was denied
If they deny it then they are treating De Pere differently than they did with a state wrestling power the last time this issue came up that I can recall. I know it is a tough issue, but every school should be treated the same regardless of who it is.
Quote from: Point1223 on February 17, 2017, 11:30:07 AM
Just an FYI....Word is the appeal was denied
http://fox11online.com/sports/high-school-gametime/de-pere-wrestling-appeal-denied (http://fox11online.com/sports/high-school-gametime/de-pere-wrestling-appeal-denied)
Quote from: imwi on February 17, 2017, 11:51:42 AM
Quote from: Point1223 on February 17, 2017, 11:30:07 AM
Just an FYI....Word is the appeal was denied
http://fox11online.com/sports/high-school-gametime/de-pere-wrestling-appeal-denied (http://fox11online.com/sports/high-school-gametime/de-pere-wrestling-appeal-denied)
Who are the 2 wrestlers that get to compete?
I feel especially for those two seniors and especially Turriff. Who are the two that get to wrestle? Turriff is the one that is most adversely affected as this is his senior year and he was going to qualify and good chances to get on the podium.
I feel terrible for all of the De Pere wrestlers and their growing wrestling community. Right or wrong decision, you will not be able to convince me the WIAA handled this correctly when:
1. They did have all the information required prior to regionals.
2. De Pere had a written agreement allowing them to participate and placing them on "probation", whatever that even means.
Shame on the WIAA for how they handled this.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
But what about the 8 kids and their coaches that followed the rules.......isn't it just as tragic that a person who didn't follow the rules gets in. Don't those kids deserve it just as much?
[/quote] What about those kids? Don't you want a kid to get to sectionals because they were one of the best wrestlers of the day versus a technicality.
I've head that the WIAA Board upheld their decision today and also heard the two wrestlers that are able to wrestle will not in solidarity for the team.
While I don't know these kids I feel crushed by this judgement....especially Turriff. Could have been handled differently.
You know what was learned? When you find a mistake made in your program don't do the honest thing and turn yourself in.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 12:07:27 PM
2. De Pere had a written agreement allowing them to participate and placing them on "probation", whatever that even means.
Shame on the WIAA for how they handled this.
This is where my concern lies now. The truth is the high school AD's are overwhelmed and are just one school. Organizing all the schools to demand to find out what happened or initiate change takes a lot of energy and time that one AD does not necessarily want to take on.
I am not sure who the "appeals board" is but I do think these decisions should be made by a very large board of AD's and sport specific coaches and not made from one or maybe two administrators. The other issue is that will any of these meetings become public record with transparency. Will the WIAA even issue a statement? To much is secretive for my liking.
MHSfan2,
WIAA handled it poorly. De Pere had a teary eyed session before regionals when they thought they weren't able to compete. It should have been final then. They shouldn't have had to go through that same situation twice in 2 weeks. I am not disputing the other 8 kids, that would be wrong as well for them
However, the pure fact that the De Pere kids had to go through this twice is the biggest tragedy. WIAA had their chance to make the correct decision initially and they totally blew it.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
Quote from: Ivan Stankowski on February 17, 2017, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: Mack on February 17, 2017, 10:33:52 AM
I get all the "rules are rules" folks, and their logical position on this situation.
People would be furious with me, if I were in charge. No question. I would totally let the kids wrestle. Big fan of grace, knowing I often need it.
I'm so, so sorry for all the people negatively affected by this. I know in the grand scheme of things, this isn't tragic. But, most of us parents know if this were our wrestler, it would definitely feel like a tragedy. Hoping for some last minute miracle for these kids, and their families.
But what about the 8 kids and their coaches that followed the rules.......isn't it just as tragic that a person who didn't follow the rules gets in. Don't those kids deserve it just as much?
TRAGIC!! ??? COME ON MAN!!
Sorry, I was using the wording from above.....I should have stated it just as big of a "Tragedy" to those kids that don't get in by following the rules.
I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure. I'm dialing all the complexities down, and thinking about kids. If you wrestled at regionals, and are not in the top four who qualify for sectionals, is it a "tragedy" if you don't wrestle at sectionals? For some reason, that doesn't feel the same as kids who are just doing what they're told to do, and for reasons beyond their control, they lose an opportunity they did everything within their power to earn. Know what I mean?
It's just sad, and I'm sorry for everyone.
And, for the kids who are now going, good luck to them. These circumstances are beyond their control also, and I hope they can make the most of it.
This stinks for the De Pere wrestlers. I agree, they did what they were told to do and now are paying the price for it. And the WIAA is enforcing a rule regarding a violation that was self reported. The WIAA does hold some responsibility in this...or at least should. I have personally tried to talk to the WIAA regarding interpretations of rules/rule violations. Their standard answer is "members of the WIAA is self policed" and "if you have a concern to bring it to your coach or AD".
So they sit back and let the members determine how to interpret the rules and if something hits the fan the WIAA swoops in and acts like everyone should know the rule. Reading 10 pages on this forum somewhat indicates the rules are vague in many cases. Setting up potential mistaken rule interpretations. I have banged my head against the WIAA wall so many times I think they may have me on a "watch list"...and every time I have walked away with no answers and more frustrated.
I don't know if this is a case of misinterpreting a rule or simply an honest mistake. The problem is the WIAA will simply react to this and do nothing to ensure in the future the chances of happening again are greatly reduced.
I do think in this case the WIAA was in a no win situation. If they let the kids wrestle there would be a ton of screaming people yelling about rule violations and the WIAA not upholding their penalties. If they don't let the kids wrestle they are being unfair to the athlete who was only following their coaches instructions.
WIAA's fault is they let them wrestle ... then changed their mind after regionals with no new objective information. That is what cannot be forgotten.
I wish they would have had the option to forfeit two events and take some sort of administrative punishment instead of this outcome.
Consequences for breaking rules and laws are meant for those responsibility for breaking the rule/law. The KIDS are not responsible for making the schedule and in turn should NOT have the consequences. This is a horrible situation of adults making high school sports seem more like a business. Sad.
No surprise to me at all that the WIAA blew it. They do literally EVERY time. They give a rats behind about what is best for the student athletes...and proved it yet again with this decision. Their ONLY concern is that they collect their money and get to continue collecting their inflated salaries. This decision does not hurt anyone within that "regime." This was an easy decision for them, they don't even have to think. They have no competition and answer to no one but themselves. No matter how many things they get wrong, it does not matter! Is someone going to fire them? It's the perfect gig (for them). I sincerely doubt they even care about the athletes in this situation. This was actually convenient for them, they got to wield their power, and make themselves feel relevant. A freaking monkey could have made this decision. An organization that was truly looking out for student athletes would never have.
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 01:07:25 PM
This stinks for the De Pere wrestlers. I agree, they did what they were told to do and now are paying the price for it. And the WIAA is enforcing a rule regarding a violation that was self reported. The WIAA does hold some responsibility in this...or at least should. I have personally tried to talk to the WIAA regarding interpretations of rules/rule violations. Their standard answer is "members of the WIAA is self policed" and "if you have a concern to bring it to your coach or AD".
So they sit back and let the members determine how to interpret the rules and if something hits the fan the WIAA swoops in and acts like everyone should know the rule. Reading 10 pages on this forum somewhat indicates the rules are vague in many cases. Setting up potential mistaken rule interpretations. I have banged my head against the WIAA wall so many times I think they may have me on a "watch list"...and every time I have walked away with no answers and more frustrated.
I don't know if this is a case of misinterpreting a rule or simply an honest mistake. The problem is the WIAA will simply react to this and do nothing to ensure in the future the chances of happening again are greatly reduced.
I do think in this case the WIAA was in a no win situation. If they let the kids wrestle there would be a ton of screaming people yelling about rule violations and the WIAA not upholding their penalties. If they don't let the kids wrestle they are being unfair to the athlete who was only following their coaches instructions.
Again I do not care to defend the WIAA but there is a chain of command so to speak when going about these things. Nothing has pissed me off more than when my supt. or principal brings an issue to me with out the person coming to me, the coach, first. If you want answers start at the bottom and work up. The coaches and AD's are responsible for the rules. We take tests and that is part of the deal. All the WIAA wants is those people that are affiliated with the WIAA to contact them and then share the info with the people involved. The WIAA is not a public entity so is not responsible to publish any meeting notes. I know people do not like that but there are so many privacy issues that with kids it almost make it impossible.
Trackwrestling has been updated. Some weight classes have added a new wrestler and others have a bye. I am assuming that in some cases the 5th place finisher from the regional declined to wrestle so it is a bye.
Two Depere wrestlers are listed as wrestling as of now- It was mentioned in a prior thread that they will not wrestle so must be going to forfeit?
170 Tommy Kratz- sophomore
195 Travis Lueck- Senior
I guess I don't under stand why at 160 they would make the bye the #1 seed that replace Turriff. Why not bump everyone up and make the bye be the 4th place finisher. That better keeps the integrity of the bracket and balanced better?
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 12:07:27 PM
I feel terrible for all of the De Pere wrestlers and their growing wrestling community. Right or wrong decision, you will not be able to convince me the WIAA handled this correctly when:
1. They did have all the information required prior to regionals.
2. De Pere had a written agreement allowing them to participate and placing them on "probation", whatever that even means.
Shame on the WIAA for how they handled this.
According to article in Appleton Post Crescent, they did not get all the information the first time.
The initial review the WIAA had conducted on Feb. 3 using De Pere’s team and individual schedule concluded that the team and its wrestlers were within the 14-meet limit for the regular season when it identified varsity and junior varsity events.
The review process involved using the website TrackWrestling.com, which most teams use to keep statistics. The WIAA has also used TrackWrestling.com for its postseason tournaments for several years.
The WIAA reviewed with De Pere administrators that the team had competed in six multi-team events at the varsity level, which was one under the limit for multi-team meets. The team had wrestled in eight duals.
However, the individual match schedules for the wrestlers did not account for some of the multi-team meets they had participated in. That’s what was found this week when the WIAA was inquired to review the eligibility of the team’s wrestlers again.
One of De Pere’s multi-team meets which was omitted on the individual schedules for many wrestlers was the Sauk Prairie Invite on Jan. 7.
Many of De Pere’s sectional qualifiers also had competed in what was listed as a junior varsity event for the team at the Dirk Sorenson Door County Classic on Jan. 28. from Appleton Post Cresent article
That is a bit interesting in that maybe there was not complete full disclosure by the school and full self-reporting? Sounds like the WIAA was doing the investigation.
Quote from: foose4 on February 17, 2017, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 12:07:27 PM
I feel terrible for all of the De Pere wrestlers and their growing wrestling community. Right or wrong decision, you will not be able to convince me the WIAA handled this correctly when:
1. They did have all the information required prior to regionals.
2. De Pere had a written agreement allowing them to participate and placing them on "probation", whatever that even means.
Shame on the WIAA for how they handled this.
According to article in Appleton Press Gazette, they did not get all the information the first time.
The initial review the WIAA had conducted on Feb. 3 using De Pere's team and individual schedule concluded that the team and its wrestlers were within the 14-meet limit for the regular season when it identified varsity and junior varsity events.
The review process involved using the website TrackWrestling.com, which most teams use to keep statistics. The WIAA has also used TrackWrestling.com for its postseason tournaments for several years.
The WIAA reviewed with De Pere administrators that the team had competed in six multi-team events at the varsity level, which was one under the limit for multi-team meets. The team had wrestled in eight duals.
However, the individual match schedules for the wrestlers did not account for some of the multi-team meets they had participated in. That's what was found this week when the WIAA was inquired to review the eligibility of the team's wrestlers again.
One of De Pere's multi-team meets which was omitted on the individual schedules for many wrestlers was the Sauk Prairie Invite on Jan. 7.
Many of De Pere's sectional qualifiers also had competed in what was listed as a junior varsity event for the team at the Dirk Sorenson Door County Classic on Jan. 28. from Appleton Post Cresent article
Thank you for posting this.
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
That is a bit interesting in that maybe there was not complete full disclosure by the school and full self-reporting? Sounds like the WIAA was doing the investigation.
Yes !
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
That is a bit interesting in that maybe there was not complete full disclosure by the school and full self-reporting? Sounds like the WIAA was doing the investigation.
Yes !
So you think its ok to punish kids for something they had nothing to do with it. If I get a speeding ticket they should fine you.....
Interesting to me that DePere School broke the rules but the WIAA are the bad guys for enforcing the rules? Some of folks are amazing. So use the process and work to change the rule but to change it midstream is a slippery slope that none of you would handle the postion on the Board of the WIAA very well. I bet the WIAA and Wade feel just as bad and bet they tried every way to resolve this without circumventing the written rules but if the News Paper Article is true then allot of you look a little foolish with your emotional filled unfounded arguments. My goodness the rule is ok until they enforce it? Do you know how foolish that argument is? Unbelievable...... ::)
It stinks for those that wrestling team and those affected by the inexcusable actions of those adults.....
Quote from: aarons23 on February 17, 2017, 03:17:37 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
That is a bit interesting in that maybe there was not complete full disclosure by the school and full self-reporting? Sounds like the WIAA was doing the investigation.
Yes !
So you think its ok to punish kids for something they had nothing to do with it. If I get a speeding ticket they should fine you.....
That is the way it works for good or bad. One kid gets bad grades or somehow competes in in a few football games while he is ineligible. The WIAA rules that those wins need to be forfeited. Team now has losing record and misses the playoffs. Again penalizes the entire team.
The WIAA ruled in favor of 334 teams and against 1. Someone has to be the bad guy when a rule is obviously and blatantly broken. In every instance something happens that is extremely hurtful to a few for the greater good of all. Because of this all coaches and AD's are going to do a better job with their schedules. Because of this some rule changes may even come about?
And this comes from me who is not very fond of the WIAA at all and the way it operates. I honestly think each sport would be better managed by a coaches council made up of specific coaches in that sport and then maybe a few AD's and parents.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 03:20:31 PM
Interesting to me that DePere School broke the rules but the WIAA are the bad guys for enforcing the rules? Some of folks are amazing.
Thank you Ram.
it said, "other teams"? MEANING COACHES? called with complaints forcing the WIAA to make a ruling....But, it was self reported on Feb 3rd and they were still allowed to wrestle on the 11th...so SOMEONE MADE A CALL on the matter! and it should have be a done deal then....is the WIAA saying they didn't have Significant time to make a call on the matter?, But yet did?.. and if that is the case, they should be allowed to continue wrestling as they did last weekend...or was a call made and the right personnel not notified?..if that would be the case, then the WIAA Member? or members who made the call at the time should stand up and Take the responsibility for the actions taken on the matter at the time....and what I find really mind bowing is the fact that, SOME "Coaches" would actually care enough to take the time to make sure that a few kids get yanked from the sport they love in the more precise time of there short high school careers if in fact "Other Teams" means coaches....just cant see one doing that :-\...a mistake was made, no harm came from it, move on to SEC !........ :) LOOSE LIPS, SINK SHIPS ! >:(
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:23:07 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on February 17, 2017, 03:17:37 PM
Quote from: woody53 on February 17, 2017, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 17, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
That is a bit interesting in that maybe there was not complete full disclosure by the school and full self-reporting? Sounds like the WIAA was doing the investigation.
Yes !
So you think its ok to punish kids for something they had nothing to do with it. If I get a speeding ticket they should fine you.....
That is the way it works for good or bad. One kid gets bad grades or somehow competes in in a few football games while he is ineligible. The WIAA rules that those wins need to be forfeited. Team now has losing record and misses the playoffs. Again penalizes the entire team.
The WIAA ruled in favor of 334 teams and against 1. Someone has to be the bad guy when a rule is obviously and blatantly broken. In every instance something happens that is extremely hurtful to a few for the greater good of all. Because of this all coaches and AD's are going to do a better job with their schedules. Because of this some rule changes may even come about?
And this comes from me who is not very fond of the WIAA at all and the way it operates. I honestly think each sport would be better managed by a coaches council made up of specific coaches in that sport and then maybe a few AD's and parents.
not even close in comparison.
I agree, thanks for posting. However, that does not coordinate with the version I was told (I understand I may have been told incorrectly ... or maybe not).
Still don't like it, just like I didn't like it when this happened to Pulaski softball and Westosha volleyball. Rule needs to be changed. Punish the program, not the kids.
Quote from: ramjet on February 17, 2017, 03:20:31 PM
Interesting to me that DePere School broke the rules but the WIAA are the bad guys for enforcing the rules? Some of folks are amazing. So use the process and work to change the rule but to change it midstream is a slippery slope that none of you would handle the postion on the Board of the WIAA very well. I bet the WIAA and Wade feel just as bad and bet they tried every way to resolve this without circumventing the written rules but if the News Paper Article is true then allot of you look a little foolish with your emotional filled unfounded arguments. My goodness the rule is ok until they enforce it? Do you know how foolish that argument is? Unbelievable...... ::)
It stinks for those that wrestling team and those affected by the inexcusable actions of those adults.....
Don't think I have heard too many on here saying that there shouldn't be a punishment for the crime. However - the punishment should fit the crime - and penalizing the kids for something they are not responsible for is irresponsible. I will admit I do not know how the rule is written in terms of the punishment for a violation - but what lesson are you teaching a senior who has wrestled for the past 10-12 years with the dream of wrestling at the Kohl Center and because of no fault of his own that dream is crushed?
Let' also remember this - high school athletes make $0 - 99.9% of them are doing it for fun - and to teach them life lessons. What did we just teach them - someone else breaks a rule and I have to pay the consequences? As a manager if one of my employees breaks a rule I have to deal with the consequences - in NO SITUATION do they have to deal with the consequences if I break a rule.
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 03:43:00 PM
I agree, thanks for posting. However, that does not coordinate with the version I was told (I understand I may have been told incorrectly ... or maybe not).
Still don't like it, just like I didn't like it when this happened to Pulaski softball and Westosha volleyball. Rule needs to be changed. Punish the program, not the kids.
Second part of this post is right on push for change but understand if you punish the program you are punishing the kids. Either way those adults entrusted with the kids need to take that responsibility seriously.The AD and coach let these westers down.
woody, if ya know, was i correct in somebody making a call that should not have? or did not have the power too? was it a case of someone stepping on another persons toes?....because if nothing else, to have let them wrestle and then let the school deal with the consequences later might have been the better route to take here..or .is it possible that it was all just a big miss understand of Alternative Facts?.. :o
Quote from: onwisconsin on February 17, 2017, 03:43:00 PM
I agree, thanks for posting. However, that does not coordinate with the version I was told (I understand I may have been told incorrectly ... or maybe not).
Still don't like it, just like I didn't like it when this happened to Pulaski softball and Westosha volleyball. Rule needs to be changed. Punish the program, not the kids.
I really don't think the punishment fits the crime, I feel horrible for the kids.
Yet everyone that keeps saying punish the program not the kids make absolutely no sense to me. The kids are the program..... If you punish the program in future seasons you are just punishing a different group of kids that are coming into a "program" that violated a rule while these new kids were not part on the program and said violation.
Quote from: maggie on February 17, 2017, 03:31:14 PM
it said, "other teams"? MEANING COACHES? called with complaints forcing the WIAA to make a ruling....But, it was self reported on Feb 3rd and they were still allowed to wrestle on the 11th...so SOMEONE MADE A CALL on the matter! and it should have be a done deal then....is the WIAA saying they didn't have Significant time to make a call on the matter?, But yet did?.. and if that is the case, they should be allowed to continue wrestling as they did last weekend...or was a call made and the right personnel not notified?..if that would be the case, then the WIAA Member? or members who made the call at the time should stand up and Take the responsibility for the actions taken on the matter at the time....and what I find really mind bowing is the fact that, SOME "Coaches" would actually care enough to take the time to make sure that a few kids get yanked from the sport they love in the more precise time of there short high school careers if in fact "Other Teams" means coaches....just cant see one doing that :-\...a mistake was made, no harm came from it, move on to SEC !........ :) LOOSE LIPS, SINK SHIPS ! >:(
Please get all the facts before you post!!
ivan, AS YOU MUST HAVE NOTICED, i placed question marks where i didn't have facts, i am in Know way nor did i accuse anybody,was just asking., Now, if ya know the answers i was looking for, please, post them for me, THANKS
Quote from: rl77 on February 17, 2017, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: bulldog on February 17, 2017, 01:07:25 PM
This stinks for the De Pere wrestlers. I agree, they did what they were told to do and now are paying the price for it. And the WIAA is enforcing a rule regarding a violation that was self reported. The WIAA does hold some responsibility in this...or at least should. I have personally tried to talk to the WIAA regarding interpretations of rules/rule violations. Their standard answer is "members of the WIAA is self policed" and "if you have a concern to bring it to your coach or AD".
So they sit back and let the members determine how to interpret the rules and if something hits the fan the WIAA swoops in and acts like everyone should know the rule. Reading 10 pages on this forum somewhat indicates the rules are vague in many cases. Setting up potential mistaken rule interpretations. I have banged my head against the WIAA wall so many times I think they may have me on a "watch list"...and every time I have walked away with no answers and more frustrated.
I don't know if this is a case of misinterpreting a rule or simply an honest mistake. The problem is the WIAA will simply react to this and do nothing to ensure in the future the chances of happening again are greatly reduced.
I do think in this case the WIAA was in a no win situation. If they let the kids wrestle there would be a ton of screaming people yelling about rule violations and the WIAA not upholding their penalties. If they don't let the kids wrestle they are being unfair to the athlete who was only following their coaches instructions.
Again I do not care to defend the WIAA but there is a chain of command so to speak when going about these things. Nothing has pissed me off more than when my supt. or principal brings an issue to me with out the person coming to me, the coach, first. If you want answers start at the bottom and work up. The coaches and AD's are responsible for the rules. We take tests and that is part of the deal. All the WIAA wants is those people that are affiliated with the WIAA to contact them and then share the info with the people involved. The WIAA is not a public entity so is not responsible to publish any meeting notes. I know people do not like that but there are so many privacy issues that with kids it almost make it impossible.
AHH...I didn't say to not start with the coach. But sometimes a person wants clear definition from the people that enforce the rules. I have had a coach and an AD that didn't feel they wanted to deal with the issue on multiple occasions. So they did nothing. In one case it was a wrestler competing at a weight class he did not skinfold for...it was JV but it was an infraction. The coach didn't feel a need to pursue it.
The WIAA repeatedly says they report to the ADs. They seem to forget who the ADs report to...ultimately the public IMO. This is somewhat a good example, the public is calling for the head of the AD and the coach. The WIAA isn't going to impose anything on the coach (or the AD) but the school will...because the public outcry. So the school/AD/Coach do answer to the public. And that makes the WIAA responsible to answer to the public Here is how it goes...talk to the coach. He says he will talk to the AD. The coach doesn't get an answer back. So go talk to the AD. The AD says he will talk to the coach and the WIAA...the AD comes back with a partial answer. So call the WIAA...they say talk to the coach. Circle.
I believe if you can't get a straight answer at the bottom work your way up the ladder. Problem is the top of the ladder is the WIAA and they don't answer to anyone because the schools aren't going to drop membership...if they did their teams would not be able to compete in the state tournament. So they are a fat and happy dictatorship...no need to answer to anyone because they hold all the cards.
Also...what harm is caused by the WIAA answering a persons questions? I do a better job asking the question I want answer instead of playing the telephone game. I ask the coach a question and he ask the AD the question as he thinks it is asked. The AD asks the WIAA the question as he thinks it is...3 layers waters down the question.
I still don't understand the lack of investigation before ruling before regionals. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out they were over the 14 events. I have a hard time believing they just took de Pere at its word for their voluntary turn in.
If before regionals, it seems clear they would be ineligible per the Westosha Volleyball team. That said, how did they self report incorrectly. I understand "they" is not the kids.
that's exactly why i asked what i did bigoil.... ;)
WIAA had all the information on February 3rd. They made their decision and went back on it, plain and simple. It must be nice to make mistakes and then 7 days later go back and change a decision because it didn't sit well with their buddies. This whole process today was a sham. They invite us to WIAA for the appeal process, those voting members are not there, they are all on a conference call hiding behind their phones so they don't have to face the wrestlers or the parents. Shame on WIAA!!!! Be man enough to show up and look these kids in the eye and then tell them "no".
De Pere evidently does not hold as much clout as Kaukauna, and I guess when Kaukauna says jump WIAA says how high. Good job WIAA you jumped high enough. Kaukauna you should be ashamed of calling around to other schools to try and get them to contact WIAA to have a team removed. Shame on you!
I never thought, in the wrestling family of Wisconsin, it would come to this. Very hard to swallow when you can't trust people who live only miles away.
This is a high school sport that is suppose to be fun and prepare them for the rest of their lives. Sad to say, this preparation taught them to trust only themselves. " To Trust no one, Believe nothing."
If the reports say the coach's self reported it, would it have gone unnoticed if it wasn't supposedly self-reported. Why would the coaches report if so late in the season. Seems to me the WIAA was doing their job with the rules that are currently stated. I may be wrong.
Can't wait for the next two weeks.
Everyone loves a parade.
De Pere wrestling parent here. First, thanks for all the support and for the discussion, whether you agree or disagree with us. The facts in the case are quite simple but yet highlight the problem from our perspective. We self-reported on Friday, February 3. We provided all of the information requested to the WIAA. The WIAA looked up match records on trackwrestling but looked at the wrong page (team vs. individual). Regardless, the information was on the spreadsheet provided to WIAA. On February 3, WIAA initially ruled our young men were ineligible after self-reporting. Later that night, after reviewing information, WIAA said they were eligible. On February 7, the WIAA sent a letter to the school saying our wrestlers were eligible and the school would likely be placed on probation. So it was IN WRITING that they were eligible. On February 15, Kaukauna (who is on the WIAA Board of Control) and one other school (who Kaukauna asked to call the WIAA) contacted the WIAA and said they should recount De Pere's matches. They told the WIAA to look at individuals on trackwrestling not team. This led the WIAA to change their mind and reverse their written decision, thus declaring 8 of our 10 wrestlers ineligible.
The argument today came down to whether the February 7 ruling was "final" or not. The WIAA refused to accept blame for not looking at the right page on trackwrestling and for not using the spreadsheet that was provided to them. They blamed it on the school administration and one board member even had the audacity to blame it on the parents for not checking the number of matches their kids wrestled. So the WIAA claimed this was new information and thus warranted a reversal of their decision. Obviously we disagree. They had the information but they looked in the wrong spot. In addition, this all initially happened on February 3 and regionals were not until February 11. They had enough time before regionals to figure this out.
That is where this differs from Pulaski softball's appeal (which our school district supported) and Westosha's appeal. In both of those cases, they did not have a written letter from the WIAA saying their kids were eligible. Had the WIAA done this before regionals, like with Pulaski and Westosha, it would be easier to accept.
Go Birds!!!!
Terrible to reverse their 1st decision. Even worse if they did it because of pressure from another school.
Thank you for sharing FacePlant. I knew my source gave me solid information. The Gannett newspaper article shows the WIAA cover up.
The WIAA completely mishandled this. Yes, there is no way the De Pere kids deserved to go through those same emotions twice!!
Coach Matczak, if you instigated this you ought to be ashamed of yourself (If not I apologize for calling you out, but whoever did should be ashamed of themselves)!!
There was no competitive advantage gained by De Pere's mistake (yes it was their mistake, but it was not intentional... we all understand that ... and no they made no attempt to misinform the WIAA). For Christmas sake De Pere had no competitive advantage beating Sheboygan North, Sheboygan South, and Manitowoc where most of these same kids received forfeits.
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!
I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1
Who controls WIAA, do they have to answer to anybody? How did the WIAA get formed? How did they get so much power? Why do they control all the high school sorts? Who hires and fires these people? It seems like they have monopolized their positions!
Quote from: mhsfan2 on February 17, 2017, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!
I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1
Plus 1
Quote from: faceplant on February 17, 2017, 05:41:05 PM
De Pere wrestling parent here. First, thanks for all the support and for the discussion, whether you agree or disagree with us. The facts in the case are quite simple but yet highlight the problem from our perspective. We self-reported on Friday, February 3. We provided all of the information requested to the WIAA. The WIAA looked up match records on trackwrestling but looked at the wrong page (team vs. individual). Regardless, the information was on the spreadsheet provided to WIAA. On February 3, WIAA initially ruled our young men were ineligible after self-reporting. Later that night, after reviewing information, WIAA said they were eligible. On February 7, the WIAA sent a letter to the school saying our wrestlers were eligible and the school would likely be placed on probation. So it was IN WRITING that they were eligible. On February 15, Kaukauna (who is on the WIAA Board of Control) and one other school (who Kaukauna asked to call the WIAA) contacted the WIAA and said they should recount De Pere's matches. They told the WIAA to look at individuals on trackwrestling not team. This led the WIAA to change their mind and reverse their written decision, thus declaring 8 of our 10 wrestlers ineligible.
The argument today came down to whether the February 7 ruling was "final" or not. The WIAA refused to accept blame for not looking at the right page on trackwrestling and for not using the spreadsheet that was provided to them. They blamed it on the school administration and one board member even had the audacity to blame it on the parents for not checking the number of matches their kids wrestled. So the WIAA claimed this was new information and thus warranted a reversal of their decision. Obviously we disagree. They had the information but they looked in the wrong spot. In addition, this all initially happened on February 3 and regionals were not until February 11. They had enough time before regionals to figure this out.
That is where this differs from Pulaski softball's appeal (which our school district supported) and Westosha's appeal. In both of those cases, they did not have a written letter from the WIAA saying their kids were eligible. Had the WIAA done this before regionals, like with Pulaski and Westosha, it would be easier to accept.
Go Birds!!!!
Yeah let's blame kaukauna and some other school for depere violating the rules. That makes a lot of sense I didn't see the appeal at Kaukauna today. Let's just blame Kaukauna for this because Depere won't take responsibility, that's what's wrong with society today people feel they don't do anything wrong they have to find someone else to blame. You know while we're at it let's blame Kaukauna and some other school for not seeding the state tournament.
Pretty sure Depere wrestled the exact same schedule last year. Why is it a problem now? How was this not caught earlier? Feel awful for those kids!
Andersonman1234 - no one is blaming Kaukauna. At the hearing today, the WIAA said the board member from Kaukauna was abstaining from the vote because they were one of the schools that brought this to the WIAA's attention. That is a simple fact. Do not assume we are blaming them. Our AD and Coach have taken full responsibility for the mistake. Our issue is with the WIAA's handling of the situation.
Quote from: faceplant on February 17, 2017, 06:39:35 PM
Andersonman1234 - no one is blaming Kaukauna. At the hearing today, the WIAA said the board member from Kaukauna was abstaining from the vote because they were one of the schools that brought this to the WIAA's attention. That is a simple fact. Do not assume we are blaming them. Our AD and Coach have taken full responsibility for the mistake. Our issue is with the WIAA's handling of the situation.
Does the AD still work for DePere? Shouldn't !
Thank you for clearing this mess up Andersonman1234...now we know permission was granted...somebody with Authorization Power had to sign the letter and sent it off... :-X...this quagmire is like a Mystery... :).......bottom line is, someone had to know that they were in violation of the Rules that are in place, it's not like they have changed it in the last yr.....all i can say is, I sure feel sorry for the kids >:(
Quote from: padre on February 17, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: mhsfan2 on February 17, 2017, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!
I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1
Plus 1
Me too. If someone can provide me info please pm me. I can't believe anyone on this forum can actually support the wiaa decision. They had a chance to exercise discretion but they didn't because they're gutless. I didn't think they could embarrass themselves more than the sportsmanship memo that turned us into a national punchline but they are trying. Bottom line is you treat everyone fairly not equally. Every violation is different in one way or another. If the wiaa can't properly exercise good judgment in the best interest of the student athlete and "members" then go to a volunteer organization. A violation was committed. A fact that depere not only acknowledges but reported. The wiaa brought down the mallet on a mosquito. They got it right with probation. Absolutely unfortunate for the depere wrestlers. You have support in western Wisconsin. The penalty is way too excessive for the violation!
Quote from: Barou on February 17, 2017, 08:03:43 PM
Quote from: padre on February 17, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: mhsfan2 on February 17, 2017, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!
I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1
Plus 1
Me too. If someone can provide me info please pm me. I can't believe anyone on this forum can actually support the wiaa decision. They had a chance to exercise discretion but they didn't because they're gutless. I didn't think they could embarrass themselves more than the sportsmanship memo that turned us into a national punchline but they are trying. Bottom line is you treat everyone fairly not equally. Every violation is different in one way or another. If the wiaa can't properly exercise good judgment in the best interest of the student athlete and "members" then go to a volunteer organization. A violation was committed. A fact that depere not only acknowledges but reported. The wiaa brought down the mallet on a mosquito. They got it right with probation. Absolutely unfortunate for the depere wrestlers. You have support in western Wisconsin. The penalty is way too excessive for the violation!
Totally agree, especially the description "gutless decision." Exactly what it is.
Quote from: padre on February 17, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: mhsfan2 on February 17, 2017, 06:20:41 PM
Quote from: knight/purgolder on February 17, 2017, 06:13:57 PM
If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!
I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1
Plus 1
I take 3 XXL, and 3 L, pm me and I will pickup and pay Thursday afternoon