No more waiting!!!

[foose4]

As stated in my first line, I only looked at schools that took 10-12 to regionals as that who this is supposed to help the most.   That number was 35.

Only 6 of those 35 did not cover both 106 & 113 and only 4 did not cover both 220 & 285.

Looking at the breakdown of schools with 10-12 wrestlers, which weight brackets do we eliminate to help them get to full teams?   Not any certain on will help everyone so now we have to decide which weights are gone.  That is all I am saying.   Everyone wants to eliminate weight classes.....which ones and why?  Which ones move and why?

And don't use college weights.  There are more high school teams than college teams so why would we use the smaller groups weights?

[goldmedal]

I think we can all agree we would like to see more competitive duals and reducing weight classes to say 11 or whatever may accomplish that somewhat but by doing that you will be reducing participants plain and simple. Our numbers across the state of total wrestlers will go down dramatically. I hear it all the time part of the reason kids don't come out is wrestling is hard work and not an easy sport so the fence sitters don't come out, so if you lessen the opportunity to make a varsity position you totally lost them with no chance at all of them coming out. You can say there is JV but I'm telling you reality is those marginal kids are not going to practice for four months and 2-3 years with the hope of making a varsity position.  Your die hard wrestlers will always be there no matter what  but its the fence sitters that we need to fill those 14 weights.  Your talking two entirely different things that your trying to accomplish. Some say we need to increase participation numbers, if that's the case cutting weights is the worst thing you can do because where are you cutting that weight, maybe one I could see and even then where? If that happens your numbers go down.  I know some don't want to hear this but I think our season is to long, I think if we started after Thanksgiving a lot of teams would pick up a few more kids in there programs. Programs that still want to have open gyms or your schools Askren ect would have things out there for those that don't want the break between seasons. Kids in the D2 and D3  schools just don't get much of a break and if they did I think they would be more inclined to give wrestling a try. I think this holds true for D 1 as well.

[bigG]

Maybe I just have a difference in syntax. I think we lost the JV crowd. It's varsity or nothing for most. Kids, and many parents, will not roll on the bench or JV. Just my dos centavos.

[DocWrestling]

With that data, if you combined 106/113 into one weight class and 220/285 into one weight class you would be down to 12 weight classes and eliminated a lot of forfeits.  This would have eliminated 40 for sure forfeits which is over half of the total.   I think this is exactly what a bell curve would have us doing.

Now if you eliminate one more in the mid to upper weights by spreading out the weights, you would eliminate many more and are at 11 weight classes.

Then imagine how few there would be if you went to 10 weight classes.  Might even be depth at weight classes.  We should have system that supports even having a back-up at each weight, not just one wrestler.

Nobody has their head in the sand.  Reducing the weight classes will not eliminate all forfeits but everyone has to admit that it would at least help.

[foose4]

There are more than 35 teams in D3 aren't there? Assuming your cross-section is an accurate portrayal of all D3 schools, then the data is accurate but your statements I don't believe are. Cutting a weight class on the bottom will help 23 schools (29-6) out of 35 or 65% of the schools (54% on the top of weight brackets).

Yes my math was wrong on that...but it also depends on where you put the weights on the bottom

If we were to eliminate 106 it would help 8 schools as 6 still would not have a wrestler 113 (missing both 106 & 113) so they would still have one open spot there anyway.  So really by eliminating 106 you would help 23% (8 of 35) of the schools fill their roster with no 106 but have a 113, but hurt 37% (13 of 35) of the schools that had a wrestler at 106 and 113 and now can't use them both.

[Ghetto]

I think we can all agree we would like to see more competitive duals and reducing weight classes to say 11 or whatever may accomplish that somewhat but by doing that you will be reducing participants plain and simple. Our numbers across the state of total wrestlers will go down dramatically. I hear it all the time part of the reason kids don't come out is wrestling is hard work and not an easy sport so the fence sitters don't come out, so if you lessen the opportunity to make a varsity position you totally lost them with no chance at all of them coming out. You can say there is JV but I'm telling you reality is those marginal kids are not going to practice for four months and 2-3 years with the hope of making a varsity position.  Your die hard wrestlers will always be there no matter what  but its the fence sitters that we need to fill those 14 weights.  Your talking two entirely different things that your trying to accomplish. Some say we need to increase participation numbers, if that's the case cutting weights is the worst thing you can do because where are you cutting that weight, maybe one I could see and even then where? If that happens your numbers go down.  I know some don't want to hear this but I think our season is to long, I think if we started after Thanksgiving a lot of teams would pick up a few more kids in there programs. Programs that still want to have open gyms or your schools Askren ect would have things out there for those that don't want the break between seasons. Kids in the D2 and D3  schools just don't get much of a break and if they did I think they would be more inclined to give wrestling a try. I think this holds true for D 1 as well.

There's a lot of thoughts, but these are all opinions.

We don't KNOW that kids will quit if they don't make varsity. Some fence sitters are perfectly happy not to be in the limelight on varsity. Some kids quit because they get forced onto the varsity without having the skills to be there.

I do agree with your opinion regarding starting after Thanksgiving and the season being too long.

[DocWrestling]

Is wrestling changing the kids or are the kids changing wrestling?

Wrestling gives everyone a medal and a trophy from a young age for everything.  Then we give them a varsity spot.  I guess my old school thinking is that your pride came from working towards something and earning it.  Many talk about the character that is built on the journey of becoming a wrestler.  Is that not true anymore?   Weigh-in, wrestle varsity, get your letter, move on!

Other sports are tougher to "earn" now than wrestling is.

At all the best wrestling schools, many kids have to wrestle JV for a few years simply because they are stuck behind a good wrestler.  They do not quit too often.  They have an expectation and that leads to their hard work and ultimately the continued success of that team.  Why at other schools with less tradition do we worry that we have to give them a varsity spot or they will quit.

At our D1 school, no freshman competes on varsity in any sport other than maybe other than track or cross country.  It is rare for a freshman or sophomore to compete on varsity.  They don't quit!  They work hard and wait their turn when they are then the best and have earned it.

Part of that is because there are JV squads.  Maybe we need to look at improving JV as the #1 priority.  How do we do that without just saying coaches have to do more and more recruiting?  JV needs to be similar to the varsity experience.  Tell me how many JV dual tournaments you have seen?  Tell me how many JV tournaments use the same weight classes as the varsity?  We treat the few guys on JV's like 3rd graders.  That is why they might quit.  They are misfits with no team!  That is why they quit, not because they are not on varsity

[DocWrestling]

Shortening the season and fewer Saturdays will help improve participation. 

All our hockey and basketball families can't wait until their kids get in high school because they get their weekends back and a shorter season.

Wrestling is the opposite as it takes up more Saturdays for the majority of our wrestlers who are new or wrestled in middle school but did not do all the Saturday tournaments.  The season is also much longer for those kids.

[foose4]

It really comes down to getting kids involved.  It's no different for wrestling or football or other sports.

This is not a wrestling problem, this is a high school sports problem.  We have to find a way to get kids involved, but let them be high schoolers also.  I know some people will bang on youth sports but I really feel what is pushing people (kids and parents) away is TOO MANY SUMMER REQUIREMENTS.  Baseball wants summer ball a couple nights a week and tournaments on weekends, Basketball wants summer leagues and a couple tournaments on weekends.  Footballs wants 7 on 7 and lifting every day with a summer camp or two mixed in.  Wrestling wants open mats and summer camps/duals.  Maybe some kids want a little summer job, go camping with friends and family, take a couple weeks to stay with grandparents, or just take a month off.   The culture is now that everyone (coaches, parents, etc.) really push you have to do it all summer long and that is pushing kids to quit sports as life isn't all about sports and stuff, it's about much more than that.

Just for a disclaimer, my son is a 3 sport athlete.  We have started the last few years to take a more laid back approach to sports in the summer and off season.  Focus on the sport he is in (football, wrestling, track) and worry about the next when the current season is done.  Summers for us are pretty open now, use to do 1 to 2 nights of wrestling a week, not lucky to that all summer.  Try to fit in school team and 1 other wrestling camp, plus the school team football camp.  He is a much happier kid when he can go hang at the camper and not worry about getting back for a wrestling workout on a Sunday night in July.  It has worked very well for us but I know it doesn't fit everyone's mold.

[ElectricGuy]

1) Could we agree that reducing the number of weight classes might improve the competitiveness and experience for the 60-70% of teams that have struggled to fill 14 weight classes.  The top 25% will likely be the traditional powers and not much will change with that.  They will still dominate.

2) Could we agree that reducing the number of weight classes might actually save some programs as it will look much better to administrators?  This might take going all the way to 11 weight classes or something..  Cross country and tennis programs are not being cut even though many teams only have less than 10 on the team but with that 10 they can field a full team.

3) Could we agree that reducing the weight classes would likely improve the JV experience with duals, etc also and more paid coaches?

I agree that reducing to 13 would likely have minimal effect on any of this which is why I have gone off the deep end and think a drastic change to 10 or 11 weights would be ideal.  In the end I think reducing the number of weight classes would greatly improve the team aspect of the sport.

My hope is that improving the team aspect would lead to increased participation. We are not short of great wrestlers.  We are short the wrestlers that are average and wrestle for the fun and to help the team.  90% of teams that get on the bus for a dual already know the result of the dual so all that matters is the individual part.  Reducing the weight classes changes that outside of those top teams which will always be very tough to beat.  Fans do not come to watch individuals, they come to watch exciting team events

1)Answer - No,   What number helps 60-70%  - cutting 1 weight, 2, 3,4, more?  I can't agree without a specific number, because I don't believe cutting 1-2 will help 60-70%   

2)Answer - No,  Again that is a very subjective statement.  Are we seeing dozens of Admins clamoring to cut wrestling? Maybe most understand when they have a team of 15-20 kids that some are doubled up at weights, some aren't ready for varsity and that is why there is 6,7,8,9 forfeits?  I think with a little education by the coach, most Admin types would understand from year to year ability to fill the lineup changes because of the makeup of that room between duplicate weights and experience.   As long as the overall number in the room remains reasonable.

Side note:  I personally think Admin's would be fine with my idea in a previous post (why are we trying to make all wrestling rooms "dual teams") when some year to year are much better served maybe participating in mostly/all individual tournaments.

3)Answer - No - how is reducing weight classes going to add more paid coaches?   Yes - maybe to the JV experience if those wrestlers stay out.

"My hope is that improving the team aspect would lead to increased participation"  -  Doc, you actually can say with a straight face? Cutting 3-4 weights would increase participation?  Can you?      

Ghetto, we don't know kids will quit?  Regardless of the sport many are dropping out of sports come their Jr / Sr year if there is no chance for varsity time ..   

In addition, I'm sure the added gap's between weights wont lead to more weight cutting or exasperate the number of undersized wrestlers. <--Sarcasm

I must be missing something, the last 20yrs national the sport has grown in the number of teams and the number of wrestlers and the talk is about reducing up to just shy of a 30% of the weights. 

Yep, lets reduce the varsity field and opportunities and keep this as much of a cult / niche sport as we can. 

Hello, tonight's Olympic broadcast in lieu of wrestling will be equestrian dressage  ugh.....

[MNbadger]

Is wrestling changing the kids or are the kids changing wrestling?

Wrestling gives everyone a medal and a trophy from a young age for everything.  Then we give them a varsity spot.  I guess my old school thinking is that your pride came from working towards something and earning it.  Many talk about the character that is built on the journey of becoming a wrestler.  Is that not true anymore?   Weigh-in, wrestle varsity, get your letter, move on!

Other sports are tougher to "earn" now than wrestling is.

At all the best wrestling schools, many kids have to wrestle JV for a few years simply because they are stuck behind a good wrestler.  They do not quit too often.  They have an expectation and that leads to their hard work and ultimately the continued success of that team.  Why at other schools with less tradition do we worry that we have to give them a varsity spot or they will quit.

At our D1 school, no freshman competes on varsity in any sport other than maybe other than track or cross country.  It is rare for a freshman or sophomore to compete on varsity.  They don't quit!  They work hard and wait their turn when they are then the best and have earned it.

Part of that is because there are JV squads.  Maybe we need to look at improving JV as the #1 priority.  How do we do that without just saying coaches have to do more and more recruiting?  JV needs to be similar to the varsity experience.  Tell me how many JV dual tournaments you have seen?  Tell me how many JV tournaments use the same weight classes as the varsity?  We treat the few guys on JV's like 3rd graders.  That is why they might quit.  They are misfits with no team!  That is why they quit, not because they are not on varsity

My experience at a large DI high school is that kids do quit when they don't make the varsity.  

[Dale Einerson]

I know of two kids that were place winners that did not go out at Rapids because they either didn't believe they would wrestle varsity the following season, or, they were not willing to make the cut to make the varsity.  It pained me...and, not just because I was envisioning Scott Benitz with all those options come duals if those guys would have stayed out.

I agree with ElectricGuy's responses to Doc.  With this add, is it important to legislate to be more competitive?  Can we not agree all teams start on a level playing field?  And I have only posted this biased opinion a few times in the past, if you think a dual will be closer because there are 1-3 less weight classes against a state power, when that state power can take 1-3 of their weakest wrestlers out of a line-up, that is wrong-headed.

I also say, the data that is missing from the D3 info provided, nice work by the way, is how many 135-165 pounders were on the bench and available to wrestle, if the weight classes actually matched the available wrestlers.

Bell curve anyone?  The only reason I keep pounding my head against this wall is it feels so good when I stop...

[padre]

Our team had 14 weights filled the last 6 years at regionals and then this year due to a kid quitting and an injury we didn't.  In a perfect world we would have filled the line-up, but there is so much more to wrestling than other sports.  Injuries, skin conditions, kids quitting due to how hard it is, your wrestlers all needed to be a different weight(God forbid anyone cuts a pound) amongst other things will always make it tough....doesnt matter how many weight classes there are.

I wrestled in the mid-80s...few teams in our conference had a full line-up with 12 weights.  A bit tired of hearing about the good old days when tons of teams had multiple forfeits back then also.

I find a lot of coaches are actually not that worried about it.  Sure, they'd love to have a full line-up but are not willing to put in the time to get one....it takes a looooong time.  You have to start from the bottom up and get kids that can compete early in their high school career.  I am by no means from a wrestling background town  that has a 310 population in their high school so I know it can work....but the time sacrificed is not something most are willing to do.  They need to go out and find dedicated youth dads that they trust to help build...get everyone on board that they are doing something big.  How many high school coaches attend a youth practice? Very few.  It sucks it takes more time out of your schedule but many of these youth are wrestling a season that is 6 weeks longer than high school and they need to see these high school coaches care.  These youth coaches don't want to hear how busy you are....they are putting in the extra time.  Get some of your good high school kids down there too...nothing goes further for these kids than seeing these guys there....explain that they were in those kids shoes at one time too and teach them what it takes to be a good wrestler for a long time.  There are so many things you can do if you think outside the box....not just hoping for a change.

Instead of whining about it Im going to try even harder to get more back ups in case this happens again.  At maximum they'd go down 1 weight class so most teams will be sitting in basically the same boat.  Its not easy but spend time recruiting instead of hoping for a change.

As far as JV seasons....it is too short I believe,  You start competing at the beginning of December...then week and a half off for break.  They come back and if not on varsity they are done at end of January(if their coach gets them a tournament that weekend).  I'm not sure how much better a kid can get in this amount of time.  Do all the boys basketball teams complain its too long and they go two more weeks?

I am also a bit tired of hearing about the participation trophies.  Kids don't like to lose whether they get a trophy for fourth or not....all they know is they lost 2-3 times.  I've never had a kid happy about 4th place just because they got a trophy.  The premise behind everyone getting an award is trying to keep wrestlers out for the sport...to me it works better than anything else someone can come up with.   While maybe these kids aren't good enough to get 1st or 2nd they are being recognized for putting it all out there and competing in a combat sport that most would never think of doing....to me getting an award for that is OK.....remember its not all about winning, especially at the younger ages....we need to do everything possible to give these kids an incentive to keep coming back.  They know they are taking pictures at the bottom of the podium.  

[aarons23]

So for the last several years wrestling numbers have grown nationally but not in Wisconsin. .....could it be we are so obsessed with cutting weight classes that we refuse to look at recruiting?

Cant believe I am going to say this....but I agree 100% with Padre.....focus on a solution to get more participants on your team.....not less on tbe others.

[Barou]

So for the last several years wrestling numbers have grown nationally but not in Wisconsin. .....could it be we are so obsessed with cutting weight classes that we refuse to look at recruiting?

Cant believe I am going to say this....but I agree 100% with Padre.....focus on a solution to get more participants on your team.....not less on tbe others.

I think you do both.  I certainly can't mathematically argue about the best solution.  I will say this though.  Our dual meet product right now is poor.  I'm a "wrestling guy" and I didn't even go to a single dual this year so I can't imagine the novice fan wanting to go.  It seems that the amount of weight classes is diluting the overall competitiveness and it allows for more jockeying between weight classes.  Fire away on my lack of "proof", just my opinion but a lot of my wrestling people are like me and attending less and less HS events.  This year we went to Bi-State and some college events.