No more waiting!!!

[padre]

So for the last several years wrestling numbers have grown nationally but not in Wisconsin. .....could it be we are so obsessed with cutting weight classes that we refuse to look at recruiting?

Cant believe I am going to say this....but I agree 100% with Padre.....focus on a solution to get more participants on your team.....not less on tbe others.

I think you do both.  I certainly can't mathematically argue about the best solution.  I will say this though.  Our dual meet product right now is poor.  I'm a "wrestling guy" and I didn't even go to a single dual this year so I can't imagine the novice fan wanting to go.  It seems that the amount of weight classes is diluting the overall competitiveness and it allows for more jockeying between weight classes.  Fire away on my lack of "proof", just my opinion but a lot of my wrestling people are like me and attending less and less HS events.  This year we went to Bi-State and some college events.  

How many really good duals were there ever?  A low percentage.

You can still find some great duals and get more wrestling when you do.  Sure you have to pick and choose but I think we have always had to.  If you go to Milton vs. Stoughton it was a good dual 15 years ago and still is...but those type of duals have ALWAYS been few and far between.  Much can be said the same in other sports...a great majority of football and basketball one knows going in it is going to be lopsided....seldom does a poor team in these sports compete well with a team that has tradition.  Just because they put the same amount of kids on the floor or field doesn't automatically make for a better game.  Sure I wish all teams were full....I am embarrassed that fans come when a team has 3-5 wrestlers but know they aren't putting all of their energies into getting better.  Is the dual better if that team puts all beginners out there that get pinned in one minute...probably not really but at least they'd have something to improve on.  However, i have witnessed teams with poor tradition grow into a good team through years of hard work in the lower levels.  It is not easy to be competitive in ANY sport without a good youth program.  PERIOD.

[MNbadger]

I know of two kids that were place winners that did not go out at Rapids because they either didn't believe they would wrestle varsity the following season, or, they were not willing to make the cut to make the varsity.  It pained me...and, not just because I was envisioning Scott Benitz with all those options come duals if those guys would have stayed out.

I agree with ElectricGuy's responses to Doc.  With this add, is it important to legislate to be more competitive?  Can we not agree all teams start on a level playing field?  And I have only posted this biased opinion a few times in the past, if you think a dual will be closer because there are 1-3 less weight classes against a state power, when that state power can take 1-3 of their weakest wrestlers out of a line-up, that is wrong-headed.

I also say, the data that is missing from the D3 info provided, nice work by the way, is how many 135-165 pounders were on the bench and available to wrestle, if the weight classes actually matched the available wrestlers.

Bell curve anyone?  The only reason I keep pounding my head against this wall is it feels so good when I stop...

I agree with you on this Dale, going to fewer weights makes good teams stronger and even more dominant.

[MNbadger]

Here is another thought for those who lament the days of 12 weights.  Do you also want to go back to the 185 - heavyweight gap?
(also remember then heavyweight was unlimited as well).

[Jeff Farrell]

Sorry if this offends some coaches out there.....but this is the reality:

A good coach that can recruit/convince kids to give it a try......
and can find a way to engage everyone (parents, other coaches, youth coach) in the process.....
and develops BOTH a short term and long term strategy.....
that includes a lot of elbow grease....
and includes some development and nurturing at the youth level.....

WILL fill 14 weight classes year in, year out, and will probably be pretty darn competitive year in, year out.

Guys, we see this over and over and over.  Everything revolves around a good coach.  It has nothing to do with 10 weights, 12 weights, 20 weights.  If it's not happening at your school, then rethinking your strategy and looking in the mirror might be a good idea.  Maybe if you can't get kids to come out for your program or can't keep them in the room, there is something wrong with your approach that has absolutely nothing to do with how many weight classes or how big a population you have.

Ugh 

[DocWrestling]

Where are all these coaches that could be filling all these "holes" at 70% of schools in Wisconsin.  At 335 high school teams in WI that means there are 235+ coaches that are not doing what they need to?

The coaches are not in Iowa because they have same problems.

Nope, they are not in Minnesota either because they have same problems.

What are you telling the D3 schools that only have 100 total boys in the entire high school?

It is so easy to just say find the coach but they are not out there anywhere.  We are losing more coaches than losing coaches because they see how difficult it is not only dealing with the athletes but the parents.  The ones we have are the ones that have stepped up and are trying.  All these other coaches must be doing nothing for teams and are not coaching anywhere? 

It is also easy to say we just need to get kids off the couch and to participate in any sport.  Go ahead and try to change the world why you are at it also.

In conclusion, we are lucky to have the coaches we have at WI high schools because when there is an opening there certainly is not a long list of applicants.

[Ghetto]

It does offend me. A lot.

So did you just call me a bad coach? Cuz you did.

I have a short time vision, and a long term vision. I have busted my tail for 10 years to make my program what it is. And I'm not filling the weights.

But really it isn't about me.

So we have a ton of bad coaches in this state. Got it.

[Ghetto]

Oh gosh. I can't tell you how much this offends me.

Here's an example of how much work I've put into this sport.

For the past 10 years I've missed countless things that my own kids have done, to coach wrestling. I've given up every Saturday during the winter for the past 10 years to try and build a program. Our school has 20 state qualifiers. EVER. I have half of them.

My son started wrestling this year. I missed every dual he wrestled in. EVERY ONE. Please don't tell me that I haven't put in the time.

[aarons23]

Oh gosh. I can't tell you how much this offends me.

Here's an example of how much work I've put into this sport.

For the past 10 years I've missed countless things that my own kids have done, to coach wrestling. I've given up every Saturday during the winter for the past 10 years to try and build a program. Our school has 20 state qualifiers. EVER. I have half of them.

My son started wrestling this year. I missed every dual he wrestled in. EVERY ONE. Please don't tell me that I haven't put in the time.

Problem is it can not be a one man show.....coaches need a supporting cast which includes assistants and coaches in the school at the middle school and high school to communicate with wrestlers and potential wrestlers a good middle school program aswell as a good youth program that is also has imput from high school.  Plus a group of parents that are passionate about wrestling and growing wrestling.  Its not a one man job.  I know personally that Ghetto is passionate and dedicated.....but does he have the surrounding cast that he needs?

[MNbadger]

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf

If you went from 5th percentile to 95 percentile, 14-17 years old you would go from 88 pounds to 195 pounds.
Again, this is walking around weight.


http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41l071.pdf

If you take 3rd percentile to 97th percentile, 14-17 years old you would go from 82 pounds to 208 pounds.

[Jeff Farrell]

I know, its sometimes tough to face the brutal realities.  Im not sayimg anyone is a bad coach, im saying thay sometimes we must ask the tough questions of ourselves.  Am i doing this right?  Brute force (lots of hours, sacrafice) dont always translate into success.  Thats when you have to ask the tough questions.

Ghetto, i know you work hard, i dont doubt that for a minute.  Sometimes pushing the 1,000 poind rock up the mountain by yourself just wont work.

[DocWrestling]

Thanks Ghetto....
We need more guys like you, I don't agree with you but I do support you.

This is a critical point I want to make, like it or not cutting weight classes will not improve the duels!!! Wrestling has turned into a sport of haves or have not's just like baseball and basketball. Stratford and Fennimore are total proof, The duel's are being dominated by the kids putting in the extra time at the privet clubs.
That train has left the station and isn't coming back.
Look it up 92% (d1 and d2)of all the high school place winners placed by 6th grade. Over 85% of the place winners have registered at tournaments under the flag of a privet club. Kids are smart they are not coming out for wrestling for the first time in jr high school because they understand it will be almost impossible to be competitive.
So how does cutting weight classes fix this? 

I don't disagree but not sure I undertand your point.  Should we just forget about all the wrestlers that just dream of being a sectional qualifier or a conference placewinner?  Or we are just supposed to make it easier for them so we need a weight class for them all to be varsity right away?
wrestlers that come up then expect to be on varsity right away

[padre]

Oh gosh. I can't tell you how much this offends me.

Here's an example of how much work I've put into this sport.

For the past 10 years I've missed countless things that my own kids have done, to coach wrestling. I've given up every Saturday during the winter for the past 10 years to try and build a program. Our school has 20 state qualifiers. EVER. I have half of them.

My son started wrestling this year. I missed every dual he wrestled in. EVERY ONE. Please don't tell me that I haven't put in the time.

You have to make sure you make your kids meets.  I'm sure you have an assistant that can run practices on those nights.  Makes for an easier life and the kids and parents will definitely understand.

[Dale Einerson]

Lifted from a CDC website, idea generated by MNBadger...

Typical Height and Weight Charts
Height and Weights for Teen Boys
Age Range   Height   Weight   Percentile
12-13 years   58 - 62 inches   85 - 100 lbs   50%
14-15 years   63 - 66 inches   105 - 125 lbs   50%
16-17 years   67 - 70 inches   130 - 150 lbs   50%
18-20 years   68 - 70 inches   150 - 160 lbs   50%

Not a bell curve at all, however it is equivalent to 4 high points on 4 separate bell curves.  And what did our breathtakingly math-challenged national wrestling leadership do?  Why, they took a weight out of the middle, right where the 14-15, 16-17 and 18 year olds are grouped; placed it in the tail of the distribution.  People, take a weight away, from say 215, and move the weights between 113 and 195 towards the middle and much of your problem will be solved.

How bad would it really be if we had a 145, 150, 155 and 160?  And, please note, since 130-150 are the mid/high points for 16-17 year olds and can safely presume this is pre-7% cut-down weight, that grouping should lower and centered around the midpoint.

Doc, I have a strawman for you, if a tennis team can only get 10 kids out; that is how many positions there are on varsity, should they cut it to 7 or 8 just so somebody has to work at it to make varsity?

With all due respect; I have huge respect for your contributions to wrestling and for what I think I know about you as a person, I have to question what problem you are attempting to address by cutting weight classes?  So far I am hearing you want to legislate competitiveness and make it harder to become a varsity competitor.  Others tell me forfeits are killing their brain and damaging their esophagus.

I say, I keep saying, why don't you let the guys riding the pines wrestle varsity in the most heavily populated weight range; add those talented 7th and 8th graders to fill in the lighter weights?

And Ghetto; all wrestling Coaches, school or club, thank you.  Sincerely, thank you.  You don't do it for the money, your "why" is a passion for kids, for giving back, for seeing progress, for positively impacting the life of others, all centered around a sport that you enjoy and strongly desire to see thrive.  Thank you.

[Dale Einerson]

Oh gosh. I can't tell you how much this offends me.

Here's an example of how much work I've put into this sport.

For the past 10 years I've missed countless things that my own kids have done, to coach wrestling. I've given up every Saturday during the winter for the past 10 years to try and build a program. Our school has 20 state qualifiers. EVER. I have half of them.

My son started wrestling this year. I missed every dual he wrestled in. EVERY ONE. Please don't tell me that I haven't put in the time.

You have to make sure you make your kids meets.  I'm sure you have an assistant that can run practices on those nights.  Makes for an easier life and the kids and parents will definitely understand.

Oh my, betting they are Saturdays...and that is another challenge with high school wrestling schedules...it is a tournament-based sport that requires a lot of time to complete competitions, which means weekends, which means not Sunday, which means Saturday...

[Dale Einerson]

Lifted from a CDC website, idea generated by MNBadger...

Typical Height and Weight Charts
Height and Weights for Teen Boys
Age Range   Height   Weight   Percentile
12-13 years   58 - 62 inches   85 - 100 lbs   50%
14-15 years   63 - 66 inches   105 - 125 lbs   50%
16-17 years   67 - 70 inches   130 - 150 lbs   50%
18-20 years   68 - 70 inches   150 - 160 lbs   50%

Not a bell curve at all, however it is equivalent to 4 high points on 4 separate bell curves.  And what did our breathtakingly math-challenged national wrestling leadership do?  Why, they took a weight out of the middle, right where the 14-15, 16-17 and 18 year olds are grouped; placed it in the tail of the distribution.  People, take a weight away, from say 215, and move the weights between 113 and 195 towards the middle and much of your problem will be solved.

How bad would it really be if we had a 145, 150, 155 and 160?  And, please note, since 130-150 are the mid/high points for 16-17 year olds and can safely presume this is pre-7% cut-down weight, that grouping should lower and centered around the midpoint.

Doc, I have a strawman for you, if a tennis team can only get 10 kids out; that is how many positions there are on varsity, should they cut it to 7 or 8 just so somebody has to work at it to make varsity?

With all due respect; I have huge respect for your contributions to wrestling and for what I think I know about you as a person, I have to question what problem you are attempting to address by cutting weight classes?  So far I am hearing you want to legislate competitiveness and make it harder to become a varsity competitor.  Others tell me forfeits are killing their brain and damaging their esophagus.

I say, I keep saying, why don't you let the guys riding the pines wrestle varsity in the most heavily populated weight range; add those talented 7th and 8th graders to fill in the lighter weights?

And Ghetto; all wrestling Coaches, school or club, thank you.  Sincerely, thank you.  You don't do it for the money, your "why" is a passion for kids, for giving back, for seeing progress, for positively impacting the life of others, all centered around a sport that you enjoy and strongly desire to see thrive.  Thank you.

Pathetically responding to my own post...if we have the numbers provided by the CDC above I know a standard bell curve could be calculated from that...where is our math teacher that provides prognoses when we need him?  I could figure it out, but then I have this immense gift for avoiding work delegating.