No more waiting!!!

[littleguy301]

I get it what most are saying on this.

Fact I have that I would like to put out there.

Alot of this comes down to school size and such.

Small school with less than 300 hundred in the high school might be hard to find the numbers to fill out all weight classes.

Mid size schools with less than 850, sure you have enough to fill out a line up but your also in competition with basketball, band, hockey, play and other events so your pool gets smaller.

Large sized school with over 850 have the numbers and the kids to fill out the weights.

So with that said, I am still behind the 2 divisions, one with 14 weights and 1 with 12 weights. Also like Doc said with the options for either school to apply for going to one of the divisions.

[littleguy301]

Not sure as to solve any problems.

I know putting "blame" on coaches may not be the answer though.

[littleguy301]

Also, after reading about placing at youth state and what is does in high school. I am still alittle out on that one at this point.

Sure building some good skills as a youth is kid butt important but I would go as far as saying you have to place at youth state to set the tone as to what you do in high school.

I went back 3-7 years and just looked at brackets in youth and pulled out a high school state book. While I see several names at the top in youth that are on the top in high school. But what I also see is kids not in the youth state records that do fairly well in high school also. Also see names in youth and not in high school.

I see believe you can get a kid out in middle school and they can have success in high school. Coaching, what the kids wants to put into it and if that team is supportive. An athlete is an athlete no matter how you slice and dice it.

What people measure success by is another thing. Some kids goal is to make sectionals and maybe that is all they have. Heck I know of kids that were as happy as one could be placing 3rd at their conference meet. I call that success also. Not every kid can be a state champ.

[Handles II]

Thanks Ghetto....
We need more guys like you, I don't agree with you but I do support you.

This is a critical point I want to make, like it or not cutting weight classes will not improve the duels!!! Wrestling has turned into a sport of haves or have not's just like baseball and basketball. Stratford and Fennimore are total proof, The duel's are being dominated by the kids putting in the extra time at the privet clubs.
That train has left the station and isn't coming back.
Look it up 92% (d1 and d2)of all the high school place winners placed by 6th grade. Over 85% of the place winners have registered at tournaments under the flag of a privet club. Kids are smart they are not coming out for wrestling for the first time in jr high school because they understand it will be almost impossible to be competitive.
So how does cutting weight classes fix this?  

Yep, it wasn't more than about a dozen years ago when we didn't have anyone place at state because there weren't the masses of for-profit clubs.Was there even a State tournament?? That's sarcasm if you weren't aware. Oh, and it's spelled private.

I get your point about the halves and have not's. That's certainly true about individuals and there isn't much the WWCA or WIAA can possibly do about who thinks their child is better off in a private club rather than helping support and improve their local club. But when we are talking entire teams, during the HS season, yes they can do things to help level the playing field.  D2 and D3 allow top 3 placers in Sectionals to State, right? So that's an adjustment. We have schools with 9 man football? Our Divisions of participation, as well as our Regional and Sectional assignments fluctuate, in theory to add fairness to those within.  So why in the world, when over 40% of teams can't do it, would reducing a weight or two be so different or damaging to the sport? I guess I don't follow the fear that improving competition would be bad.

Certainly the "what" weights has to be looked at as Dale showed how our latest changes in weights were opposite of where kids actually are, but without a doubt the number of weights is of importance. Having taken my team to a 10-13 team scramble in Wi the last three years, regardless of what the weights were, if it was at 14 almost all of those teams would still be giving up 3-4 forfeits. They just don't have the numbers, or numbers of varsity-ready kids. So they still look bad to the community. They still look bad to admin (who unlike one poster suggested, don't take into consideration the forces behind why a program can't fill it's varsity) and they still know that they will be giving up 18-24 points at every dual. In addition for many teams in the state, attending the increasingly popular dual tournaments is futile other than maybe you get a decent match or two for your good guys, but being that it's a dual and coaching strategies come into play, and wins are important, often the studs get forfeits because of the gaps in line ups anyway.

LG301, Your points about kids placing at State (both youth and HS) who weren't in private clubs is very true, as is your observation that kids in private clubs who place at youth state never make it to state, or never place, or perhaps never even wrestle in high school is also true. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront.

[Ghetto]

Sorry I didn't respond last night. I was at a wrestling club meeting. I also wanted to get my thoughts together.

I apologize for bringing up my own personal stuff. I was not trying to toot my own horn.

Here's the point I was trying to make...

14 weights, in my mind, is unsustainable, and that is what the numbers show. The reason I brought up my own story was not to get ideas on how to get to my son's dual. It's an example that to use the blanket statement that you do or do not have good coaches is just plain not correct. Truth is, you don't know what others are doing, but you assume that because coaches are not filling weights they are not good. To assume that 80% of the coaches in D3 are bad can't be true, can it? Do we really think so?

Getyourpoints makes one point for me. Our sport has become like all the others in that if you don't start really early, you most likely will never get to the top of the mountain. The main problem with that is that you need to have a kids club that starts them early and somehow makes it so they don't burn out before they make it to the high school. Finding that guy, or group of guys, in a non wrestling culture is very difficult to do. So then the head coach does it, and he's away from his family for yet another night (nights). If you look at places that are thriving, they had an amazing kids club guy who stuck around. Padre is exhibit A through Z. Will that program be able to sustain it when he leaves? So if a team starts their kids program with a super guy who sticks around forever, they might have success 10 years from now. What about right now, or 5 years from now?

At many schools, the stars and planets all have to align to fill all the weights.

We had 12 weights back in the day and the sport was not dying.

What people fail to understand is that I do not care in the least bit about beating Wisconsin Rapids in a dual, or Kaukauna, or Mukwonago, or any other team that was at team state. Teams like mine want to walk into a conference dual with a fighting chance to win it. I don't want Nicolet to be able to throw some JV scrub out there because they can warm body a FF to win the dual. I want people who come to the duals and be entertained by a decent product, which might make that 9 year old in the crowd try wrestling, which might bring a friend out, which might build the freshman group I get to 6 instead of 2, and down the road I might be able to have some JV matches at a dual. We all know that winning builds programs. Students see home duals. Creating a vibe MIGHT build the program. I think, for the majority of teams in this state, that being competitive as a team within their conference is more on the radar than beating the powers that be.

What we do know is that the numbers are getting worse, and not better over time. At what point do we think change is critical? If it was a business, and the numbers were going steadily down, when would you step in and try something new? Would you just blame the workers and not look to see if the system itself was flawed?

I have heard back from the WIAA, and they said they would get back to me in regards to getting the data from the body fat testing. I asked only for the weights of all kids who tested. I don't care about the names or the teams. Not sure why they'd say no, but they might. If they do give it to me, I will put it out there as to what the 12 weights/13 weights/14 weights would be on the wrestling bell curve in Wisconsin.

At the end of the day, we all care about this sport. We can do something and try to change it, or we can continue to blame the people trying to make it better for not doing enough. While changing it may not help one bit, blaming the people who are trying to make it better most certainly will not help at all.

[Oldtimer]

A lot of reading but I'm still not sure what we are solving.  Is the problem statement that we are having too many forfeits?  Is the problem statement we don't have enough participation?

If there are too many forfeits and the solution is to eliminate weight classes I would bet all the money in my right front pocket that there will be reduced participation.  I think the edge of the bell curve weight classes (if those are eliminated) will result in kids not participating because there is no weight class for them.  They don't care about JV (that's a reality).  Many of these edge of the bell curves guys are absolute studs who would no longer have a spot on varsity without going up to a higher weight class that they are not strong enough to compete.  I will also admit that many of the spots filled are from weaker kids just to fill a size spot (but you have to acknowledge that happens in the middle of the bell curve weights too).  

I will stomp my feet and hold my breath if we continue to eliminate lower weight classes and continue to move the minimum weight up.  Let these little athletes alone and show their stuff.  Forfeit when there isn't one.

To me the problem statement of too many forfeits isn't an actual problem needing to be addressed.  I think the problem is that the forfeits create too much of an imbalance of score in the dual meets.  Solve that problem and forfeits are less of an issue.

[DocWrestling]

Simply put!

Wrestling is never going to be the sport I think it can be and never on a parallel with other sports if we are going to say that wrestlers will quit if they have to wrestle JV for a year or two.  That might be because they are too small, not skilled enough, or just flat out have some studs in front of them.

By being too small I am not just talking about the 100lb or less freshman.  The same thing happens to 135lb and 170lb freshman.  They are also too small as freshman to compete against upper classmen.  We do not need them all on varsity as freshman much less 7th and 8th graders.  I speak of the 90% of wrestlers.  There are always a few exceptions with some freshman that are ready.

Every one of these kids will grow into a weight class that fits them as sophomores, juniors, and seniors.

[MNbadger]

A lot of reading but I'm still not sure what we are solving.  Is the problem statement that we are having too many forfeits?  Is the problem statement we don't have enough participation?

If there are too many forfeits and the solution is to eliminate weight classes I would bet all the money in my right front pocket that there will be reduced participation.  I think the edge of the bell curve weight classes (if those are eliminated) will result in kids not participating because there is no weight class for them.  They don't care about JV (that's a reality).  Many of these edge of the bell curves guys are absolute studs who would no longer have a spot on varsity without going up to a higher weight class that they are not strong enough to compete.  I will also admit that many of the spots filled are from weaker kids just to fill a size spot (but you have to acknowledge that happens in the middle of the bell curve weights too).  

I will stomp my feet and hold my breath if we continue to eliminate lower weight classes and continue to move the minimum weight up.  Let these little athletes alone and show their stuff.  Forfeit when there isn't one.

To me the problem statement of too many forfeits isn't an actual problem needing to be addressed.  I think the problem is that the forfeits create too much of an imbalance of score in the dual meets.  Solve that problem and forfeits are less of an issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf

If you went from 5th percentile to 95 percentile, 14-17 years old you would go from 88 pounds to 195 pounds.
Again, this is walking around weight.


http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set2clinical/cj41l071.pdf

If you take 3rd percentile to 97th percentile, 14-17 years old you would go from 82 pounds to 208 pounds.

I agree with most of what you say OT.  But looking at the above data shows we have repeatedly moved the weight classes up making more weight classes where there are fewer kids.

[Jeff Farrell]

Ghetto....apologize if my statements came off as calling you and/or others as a bad coach.  

I know by watching you the few times I've seen you in action that you care a lot and are a good coach.  I also realize that sometimes there are other competing forces that hold teams/communities back.  More times than not though, it centers around a coach or group of coaches.  That doesn't mean they are bad, it may just mean they are missing a key ingredient.  It's just my personal opinion that some coaches do it better than others, and THAT alone is the reason why they are able to be competitive year in, year out.  Competitive DOES NOT mean beating Rapids or Stoughton or Kaukauna to everyone.  You are correct, it may just mean being competitive in your conference, which generally just means fielding a full team.

In the end, I do not believe that a change in the number of weight classes has ANYTHING to do with every teams opportunity to BE COMPETITIVE.  I'm very confused at exactly what problem would be fixed by reducing weight classes?  

[DocWrestling]

The "problem" has been stated over and over.  Some just do not see the a problem and that is fine.  Agree to disagree.  Some see the problem but disagree on the corrective action needed.  That is also fine and we can agree to disagree.

The perceived "problem" was laid out on 1st page by ghetto and it is...........

The overwhelming majority of teams in Wisconsin cannot put out a full lineup at the most important date of the year, WIAA regionals.  He posted the numbers below.  These numbers would be even higher if he used 13 which is still an incomplete starting lineup.  Even at 12 those are pretty unbelievable numbers especially in lower divisions. The stats have proven to be similar in Iowa and Minnesota.  It is up to you if you think that those numbers represent a "problem"

This season, teams at regionals with 12 or less wrestlers in their lineups:

Division 1: 56%  (56.7% last year)
Division 2: 67.89% (64.7% last year)
Division 3: 80.05% (83.5% last year)

This season, teams at regionals with 12 or less "varsity" wrestlers in their lineups:

Division 1: 67.97% (69.9% last year)
Division 2: 72.04% (77.5% last year)
Division 3: 87.49% (92.2% last year)

[DocWrestling]

To me it looks like a huge problem and looks actually quite silly when looking at it from a non-wrestling perspective.  Pretend you knew nothing about wrestling and loved another sport.  Would you not think it is odd that so few teams in Wisconsin can even field a full varsity team.  Are there football teams out there only playing with 9 guys on the field at a time?  Any varsity soccer teams out there competing with 9 players on the field?

Take away everything else and look at it from an administrator or non-wrestling fan and the numbers look like a huge problem.

Pretty sure if we were just starting the sport, that from an administrative standpoint you would never set up a system that had those types of numbers

[DocWrestling]

At the very least can we agree that the divisions should likely be divided up equally.

Right now D1 takes the top 128 teams.  With 333 wrestling teams that leaves 205 more teams and they are split equally so 102 teams in each division.

Plus there are more open weight classes in lineups for D2 and D3.

Should we not at least divide up the 333 teams equally and have 111 teams in each division?  And then in each sectional should there not be the same amount of teams?

Then take top 16 in each weight class in every division?

[thequad]

 I finally caught up, so I can make a statement.

First eliminating weight classes will not give wrestlers more experience on JV, if the team doesn't have varsity wrestlers, they won't have JV wrestlers either.

The bell curve is great, but you have to start and finish at the right weights. I think 105 and 285 is good.

I think cutting weights will solve nothing. Cutting 2 weights will not help a lot of teams.

To get numbers up you need community support. Especially former wrestlers. Make practice fun for the little kids.

Times have changed since I  wrestled, wrestling was a heck of a lot easier than working on the farm. Kids just are not accustomed to work that hard. Tell them that placing at a tournament is good, getting second or  third at regionals they are better than half the wrestlers in the state. So many kids quit to play basketball but you never see their names mentioned anywhere.

How many basketball teams leave for a game and know they have almost no chance to win?

On cutting weight I think the way it is set up encourages cutting, whoever set that up had to have their head up their but. Go back to the old way at least. Make the wrestlers wrestle that weight all season.

I know there were other points I wanted to cover but I can't remember now.