What valuable lesson are we teaching the Wrestlers of De Pere High School?

[ramjet]

I agree, thanks for posting.   However, that does not coordinate with the version I was told (I understand I may have been told incorrectly ... or maybe not).

Still don't like it, just like I didn't like it when this happened to Pulaski softball and Westosha volleyball.  Rule needs to be changed.  Punish the program, not the kids.

Second part of this post is right on push for change but understand if you punish the program you are punishing the kids. Either way those adults entrusted with the kids need to take that responsibility seriously.The AD and coach let these westers down.

[maggie]

woody, if ya know, was i correct in somebody making a call that should not have? or did not have the power too? was it a case of someone stepping on another persons toes?....because if nothing else, to have let them wrestle and then let the school deal with the consequences later might have been the better route to take here..or .is it possible that it was all just a big miss understand of Alternative Facts?..

[Boot]

I agree, thanks for posting.   However, that does not coordinate with the version I was told (I understand I may have been told incorrectly ... or maybe not).

Still don't like it, just like I didn't like it when this happened to Pulaski softball and Westosha volleyball.  Rule needs to be changed.  Punish the program, not the kids.

I really don't think the punishment fits the crime, I feel horrible for the kids.

Yet everyone that keeps saying punish the program not the kids make absolutely no sense to me.  The kids are the program.....  If you punish the program in future seasons you are just punishing a different group of kids that are coming into a "program" that violated a rule while these new kids were not part on the program and said violation.

[Ivan Stankowski]

it said, "other teams"?  MEANING COACHES?   called with complaints forcing the WIAA to make a ruling....But, it was self reported on Feb 3rd and they were still allowed to wrestle on the 11th...so  SOMEONE MADE A CALL on the matter! and it should have be a done deal then....is the WIAA saying they didn't have Significant time to make a call on the matter?, But yet did?.. and if that is the case, they should be allowed to continue wrestling as they did last weekend...or was a call made and the right personnel not notified?..if that would be the case, then the WIAA Member? or members who made the call at the time should stand up and Take the responsibility for the actions taken  on the matter at the time....and what I find really mind bowing is the fact that, SOME "Coaches" would actually care enough to take the time to make sure that a few kids get yanked from the sport they love in the more precise time of there short high school careers  if in fact  "Other Teams" means coaches....just cant see one doing that ...a mistake was made, no harm came from it, move on to SEC !........  LOOSE LIPS, SINK SHIPS !      

Please get all the facts before you post!!

[maggie]

ivan, AS YOU MUST HAVE NOTICED, i placed question marks where i didn't have facts, i am in Know way nor did i accuse anybody,was  just asking., Now, if ya know the answers i was looking for, please, post them for me, THANKS

[bulldog]

This stinks for the De Pere wrestlers. I agree, they did what they were told to do and now are paying the price for it. And the WIAA is enforcing a rule regarding a violation that was self reported. The WIAA does hold some responsibility in this...or at least should. I have personally tried to talk to the WIAA regarding interpretations of rules/rule violations. Their standard answer is "members of the WIAA is self policed" and "if you have a concern to bring it to your coach or AD".

So they sit back and let the members determine how to interpret the rules and if something hits the fan the WIAA swoops in and acts like everyone should know the rule. Reading 10 pages on this forum somewhat indicates the rules are vague in many cases. Setting up potential mistaken rule interpretations. I have banged my head against the WIAA wall so many times I think they may have me on a "watch list"...and every time I have walked away with no answers and more frustrated.

I don't know if this is a case of misinterpreting a rule or simply an honest mistake. The problem is the WIAA will simply react to this and do nothing to ensure in the future the chances of happening again are greatly reduced.

I do think in this case the WIAA was in a no win situation. If they let the kids wrestle there would be a ton of screaming people yelling about rule violations and the WIAA not upholding their penalties. If they don't let the kids wrestle they are being unfair to the athlete who was only following their coaches instructions.

Again I do not care to defend the WIAA but there is a chain of command so to speak when going about these things. Nothing has pissed me off more than when my supt. or principal brings an issue to me with out the person coming to me, the coach, first. If you want answers start at the bottom and work up. The coaches and AD's are responsible for the rules. We take tests and that is part of the deal. All the WIAA wants is those people that are affiliated with the WIAA to contact them and then share the info with the people involved. The WIAA is not a public entity so is not responsible to publish any meeting notes. I know people do not like that but there are so many privacy issues that with kids it almost make it impossible.  

AHH...I didn't say to not start with the coach. But sometimes a person wants clear definition from the people that enforce the rules. I have had a coach and an AD that didn't feel they wanted to deal with the issue on multiple occasions. So they did nothing. In one case it was a wrestler competing at a weight class he did not skinfold for...it was JV but it was an infraction. The coach didn't feel a need to pursue it.

The WIAA repeatedly says they report to the ADs. They seem to forget who the ADs report to...ultimately the public IMO. This is somewhat a good example, the public is calling for the head of the AD and the coach. The WIAA isn't going to impose anything on the coach (or the AD) but the school will...because the public outcry. So the school/AD/Coach do answer to the public. And that makes the WIAA responsible to answer to the public  Here is how it goes...talk to the coach. He says he will talk to the AD. The coach doesn't get an answer back. So go talk to the AD. The AD says he will talk to the coach and the WIAA...the AD comes back with a partial answer. So call the WIAA...they say talk to the coach. Circle.

I believe if you can't get a straight answer at the bottom work your way up the ladder. Problem is the top of the ladder is the WIAA and they don't answer to anyone because the schools aren't going to drop membership...if they did their teams would not be able to compete in the state tournament. So they are a fat and happy dictatorship...no need to answer to anyone because they hold all the cards.

Also...what harm is caused by the WIAA answering a persons questions? I do a better job asking the question I want answer instead of playing the telephone game. I ask the coach a question and he ask the AD the question as he thinks it is asked. The AD asks the WIAA the question as he thinks it is...3 layers waters down the question.

[bigoil]

I still don't understand the lack of investigation before ruling before regionals. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out they were over the 14 events. I have a hard time believing they just took de Pere at its word for their voluntary turn in.

If before regionals, it seems clear they would be ineligible per the Westosha Volleyball team. That said, how did they self report incorrectly. I understand "they" is not the kids.

[maggie]

that's exactly why i asked what i did bigoil....

[Badgermax]

WIAA had all the information on February 3rd.    They made their decision and went back on it, plain and simple.  It must be nice to make mistakes and then 7 days later go back and change a decision because it didn't sit well with their buddies.  This whole process today was a sham.  They invite us to WIAA for the appeal process, those voting members are not there, they are all on a conference call hiding behind their phones so they don't have to face the wrestlers or the parents.  Shame on WIAA!!!!  Be man enough to show up and look these kids in the eye and then tell them "no".  

De Pere evidently does not hold as much clout as Kaukauna, and I guess when Kaukauna says jump WIAA says how high.  Good job WIAA you jumped high enough.  Kaukauna you should be ashamed of calling around to other schools to try and get them to contact WIAA to have a team removed. Shame on you!

I never thought, in the wrestling family of Wisconsin, it would come to this.  Very hard to swallow when you can't trust people who live only miles away.

This is a high school sport that is suppose to be fun and prepare them for the rest of their lives.  Sad to say, this  preparation taught them to trust only themselves. " To Trust no one, Believe nothing."

[armandhammer]

If the reports say the coach's self reported it, would it have gone unnoticed if it wasn't supposedly self-reported.   Why would the coaches report if so late in the season.   Seems to me the WIAA was doing their job with the rules that are currently stated.   I may be wrong.   

Can't wait for the next two weeks.   
Everyone loves a parade. 
 

[faceplant]

De Pere wrestling parent here.  First, thanks for all the support and for the discussion, whether you agree or disagree with us.  The facts in the case are quite simple but yet highlight the problem from our perspective.  We self-reported on Friday, February 3.  We provided all of the information requested to the WIAA.  The WIAA looked up match records on trackwrestling but looked at the wrong page (team vs. individual).  Regardless, the information was on the spreadsheet provided to WIAA.  On February 3, WIAA initially ruled our young men were ineligible after self-reporting.  Later that night, after reviewing information, WIAA said they were eligible.  On February 7, the WIAA sent a letter to the school saying our wrestlers were eligible and the school would likely be placed on probation.  So it was IN WRITING that they were eligible.  On February 15, Kaukauna (who is on the WIAA Board of Control) and one other school (who Kaukauna asked to call the WIAA) contacted the WIAA and said they should recount De Pere's matches.  They told the WIAA to look at individuals on trackwrestling not team.  This led the WIAA to change their mind and reverse their written decision, thus declaring 8 of our 10 wrestlers ineligible.

The argument today came down to whether the February 7 ruling was "final" or not.  The WIAA refused to accept blame for not looking at the right page on trackwrestling and for not using the spreadsheet that was provided to them.  They blamed it on the school administration and one board member even had the audacity to blame it on the parents for not checking the number of matches their kids wrestled.  So the WIAA claimed this was new information and thus warranted a reversal of their decision.  Obviously we disagree.  They had the information but they looked in the wrong spot.  In addition, this all initially happened on February 3 and regionals were not until February 11.  They had enough time before regionals to figure this out.

That is where this differs from Pulaski softball's appeal (which our school district supported) and Westosha's appeal.  In both of those cases, they did not have a written letter from the WIAA saying their kids were eligible.  Had the WIAA done this before regionals, like with Pulaski and Westosha, it would be easier to accept.

Go Birds!!!!

[mhsfan2]

Terrible to reverse their 1st decision. Even worse if they did it because of pressure from another school.

[onwisconsin]

Thank you for sharing FacePlant.   I knew my source gave me solid information.  The Gannett newspaper article shows the WIAA cover up.  

The WIAA completely mishandled this.   Yes, there is no way the De Pere kids deserved to go through those same emotions twice!!

[onwisconsin]

Coach Matczak, if you instigated this you ought to be ashamed of yourself (If not I apologize for calling you out, but whoever did should be ashamed of themselves)!! 

There was no competitive advantage gained by De Pere's mistake (yes it was their mistake, but it was not intentional... we all understand that ... and no they made no attempt to misinform the WIAA).   For Christmas sake De Pere had no competitive advantage beating Sheboygan North, Sheboygan South, and Manitowoc where most of these same kids received forfeits.   

[mhsfan2]

If De Pere has any T-shirts with the sectional qualifiers on it, I would like to buy one and I would proudly wear it everyday at the state meet!  

I won't wear everyday but I will wear to the D-1