On Guillotine, varsity numbers...

[Handles II]

Good ideas. Maybe start a thread, or even a poll and see what others think about it.
We all have to remember however, that with any of our ideas, it isn't up to coaches, or even the coaches association to make decisions (they can make recommendations but don't have much power). It's up to the A.D.'s to really bring changes to the WIAA. Unless the A.D.'s agree and push for it, no changes will come. Head coaches need to communicate strongly with their A.D. to then communicate strongly in the A.D. meetings. All of our discussions are more/less for fun. 

[bigG]

Handles and others,
As all of you know that have ever read my posts text is not my strength but i will give it a go.
For those that don't know.
7&7 means each school can attend up to 7 dual's and 7 tournaments a season to be compliant with the WIAA. This does not include the WIAA state series including regional, sectionals and state. So in a 12 week span they could wrestle 9 or 10 Saturdays counting team state. Many of those weeks the wrestlers need to weigh in for there Thursday dual maintain on Friday and weigh in again that Saturday for the tournament.
My suggestion is to change the 7&7 rule to a 3-4-3 rule, 3 dual's, 4 quad's or triangles, 3 tournaments. This would be similar to what I am seeing in swim. This would maintain the match counts give or take a few and give the kids, coaches/wives, parents, ref's back most of there weekend during the wrestling season. The triangle or quad would take place Thursdays or Fridays just as dual's are currently done. Teams can still attend out of state tournaments or tournaments like Cheese Head to get there kids exposure if they need it.
With the rule change allowing two unattached events a year, tournaments can be created for the die hard's that need those extra matches. They can travel with there folks or privet club coach to those events. 
I am also OK with alternative uniforms and your Thursday weigh ins counting for Saturdays as a change well were at it.
Benefits
1. Guaranteed matches instead of Thursday night forfeits.   
2. Packed stands
3. Less travel
4. Cost savings
5. Less time stress on coaches and athletes
6. Line up quads with similar teams (if you have a full roster then line up full teams or if you have a 1/2 roster then line up similar teams)
7. Get your conference matches done in a couple quads if you chose.
8. Shorten the season if you want.
9. Invite media now that there is a better chance of top tear pairings for matches
10. Let kids have the weekends to work, hang, date, or recover.
I truly think this change will keep more kids and coaches out for the sport. Its a hard sport already with out legalistic's making it harder.   

Good post and ideas. Certainly worth pondering and perusing.

[Coach Q]

You can do all that now! Who says 7 & 7 means you have to use 7 Saturdays?
You can do 4 quads now if you want. You can take off between Christmas, you can not participate
On any Saturdays if you want. You can wrestle 14 Duals as your 14 dates. It is entirely up to the coach
as to how we wants to manage his schedule.

[DocWrestling]

I kind of like the idea of changing up schedules but like I saw posted in an article I think you need more duals.  Duals are what schools and communities will support.  They are different than quads.  When you have fewer duals and go to quads it means fewer home events and more travel a lot of times.

Our conference has one night where all 10 teams show up and each team wrestles 2 conference duals. Location rotates.  I still like this idea but the negative is that every team gives up one home dual meet.

More duals and less tournaments saves coaches, parents, and wrestlers.

Like was also said I think the new rule allowing two open tournaments can be a catch basin to allow for more matches for the elite wrestlers.  Not sure what has to change to make the Holiday tournaments legal to be called open tournaments!

[DocWrestling]

Doc,
It would still get you 4 home events per year just like Football. The quads I have been to seem to have a lot more fans attending. I understand there are even college coaches pushing for this change at that level.

With three duals and 4 multis how are teams going to get 4 events at home.  Some might that can convince others to come.

Every dual has a home and away.  Every quad has one home team and 3 away teams.  No way everyone is going to have 4 home events but like I said it is likely better for the sport as a whole especially if the well supported communities host the quads and make them fun.  Don't necessarily have to be quads in a perfect world.  Get 4-5 teams and just wrestle round robins.  Could declare a winner if you wanted on team points.  Would likely go faster that way but lose the true team concept

[ramjet]

As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.

Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.

Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. More wrestling = better wrestling,  all three styles.

You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.

Now get those same ten kids the money, parental commitment, and motivation to commit themselves to one sport through clubs and national tournaments and I'm sold. I get it. But is you think you're idea is the big ticket unifier/solution, you might want to hear others out. What you want is agreement with your paradigm. I agree with the division thing; but aren't you also being divisive at times?

Nope not at all. Multiple sport participation is a must have in small Districts I encourage it. I do not think cutting weight classes will solve anything it's a short term solution for long term problem.

I'm with you. Still it's not debate that creates an atmosphere that hurts the sport. So long as we (prive club and public school) coach like the kids' best interests are what matters, the kids will do well; so will wrestling. Easy to say private is the way to go. But, they promote themselves through their kids' success just like any public school program. Just that schools need to include academics and behavioral expectations as a matter of course. I'm sure most clubs have something in place.

This stuff is nothing new. 10 per team doesn't knock me off kilter. Lots more things to do.

G I absolutely agree with that last sentence; Expectations, kids will live UP TO or DOWN TO expectations. Acedemics is the reason they are in school, period end of story the rest is the cream. A good learning enviroment is organized and orderly.

[ramjet]

Doc,
It would still get you 4 home events per year just like Football. The quads I have been to seem to have a lot more fans attending. I understand there are even college coaches pushing for this change at that level.

With three duals and 4 multis how are teams going to get 4 events at home.  Some might that can convince others to come.

Every dual has a home and away.  Every quad has one home team and 3 away teams.  No way everyone is going to have 4 home events but like I said it is likely better for the sport as a whole especially if the well supported communities host the quads and make them fun.  Don't necessarily have to be quads in a perfect world.  Get 4-5 teams and just wrestle round robins.  Could declare a winner if you wanted on team points.  Would likely go faster that way but lose the true team concept

Doc open your mind up some you think only along the lines of D1 or D2. D3 dual stink low numbers long travel make for terrible competition and few matches and high numbers FF. The idea of choices is better for most D3 programs tournamanet a gets the wrestlers high level competition and matches they need to hone their skills.

[DocWrestling]

Some coaches are adjusting their schedules.  I know our coaches decided to only do 6 events this year to free up a weekend for everyone.  I would love to see them pick up another weeknight tourney, dual, or quad to free up another weekend.  Just think is makes everyone happier and only limits the kids from a couple matches that are not going to make or break them when it comes to regionals.  Lets be healthy and fresh and regionals time!

Even with the canceled tournaments this past weekend, you have to admit that there were many wrestlers, families, and coaches that were excited to have an unexpected weekend off.  Only us diehard wrestling fans that lurk on a wrestling forum crave more and more wrestling

[littleguy301]

All good points.

I believe it is a combo of weight cutting, weekends, not eating, hard practices, time involvement for parents, getting throttled on in practice and no hope of seeing varsity, knowing there is a better kid out there and the energy just isnt there.

I cannt pin point 1 thing but I would venture to say there are alot of things go into why the numbers are down and so on.

Personally I believe in a match count instead of a 7 and 7 or what ever. Go ahead as a team and schedule more than the match count and then your forced to use some of the JV and such and get them experience. They you can rest the starter and maybe look for the "quality" match up or what ever. With the lack (but now growing) JV tournaments it would be a good way as to look at another teams lineups and maybe get some kids in.

I do believe that in doing this, a good scheduling of quads maybe in order. Dual meet settings is a much better way of monitoring the match count over tournaments.

No by any means this would work for all, just some ideas off the littleguys bald head

[DocWrestling]

I think you are right!   I would just put a match limit.  I would say maybe no wrestler can have more than 30 matches prior to regionals.  This would not count hopefully new open tournaments that might sprout up.  For the real serious that want more mat time they would be better served by attending an open tournament put on by one of the private clubs or even just attending open mats, etc at private clubs.   They would likely get a ton of great mat time with great practice partners or matches that benefit them much more than another school tournament or dual.  In two hours they could get a lot more out of it than an 8 hour tourney where they might only get two full length matches.

Just a way to balance the seasonal wrestlers with the die-hard year round wrestlers or just those with loftier goals. 

Do you think the bi-state or OTW tourneys could continue with their success as open tournaments?  Kid and parents pay their own way.  Maybe instead of one huge 50-man bracket it evolves into a 16 man gold division bracket/scramble, a silver division, and bronze division.  Each wrestler gets 5 matches against similar abilities.  Could be a true grinder like Cheesehead that would draw in the best wrestlers?

Rest of wrestlers get holidays off with some fun team practices?

[bigoil]

Doc,
The rule is that the tournament can not be attached to a school, on the water is ran by the U of O correct? If so it should work.
Who has the Bi State?

I think Osh Lourdes runs OTW and Holmen runs Bistate

[DocWrestling]

Doc,
The rule is that the tournament can not be attached to a school, on the water is ran by the U of O correct? If so it should work.
Who has the Bi State?

Holmen runs Bi-state.  I wonder if there is a way around that to raise them money but be an open tourney?

OTW is sponsored by Oshkosh Lourdes I think and not university so something would likely have to change there?

I think these open tourney ideas need to be explored by someone.  probably private clubs first?

[littleguy301]

Sorry people, I just cannt let this topic go about the numbers in wrestling.

Northern Badger,,,,,which is an outstanding run tournament to say the least. Big thanks to the River Falls backers and Mr Dave Black for this tournament and all that put in their time for me to enjoy an awesome sport!

OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing  over 25% of their potential line up.

On a lighter note, I certainly enjoyed watching every match I could take in, respected every kid whether win or lose. Hey it is high school sports and enjoy while you can because some day you may not be able to enjoy it.

[Ghetto]

7737 kids have body fat tested so far this season. 300 less than last year. Only one per team less. Since 2011-12, we've fat tested 1200 less. About 4 per team.

[MNbadger]

Maybe we have too many rules (including body fat testing ) that discourage getting kids out..........