Push out

[panther93]

I added this to another tread earlier, but I want to get a feel for how others feel about this topic, THE PUSH OUT RULE.  Having coached for 21 years, I have often wondered if this rule could create an added benefit to our great sport.

The way I see it, refs are way to inconsistent in their stalling calls (meaning from ref to ref) and there are too many wrestlers that ride the line and become good a backing out when they feel they are in trouble.  This would do away with all of that, at least in the neutral position.  I think it would lead to more action on the mat, less stoppages in the neutral position, more scoring, and an overall more exciting product for the fans.

Thoughts?

[DocWrestling]

Easy to understand for fans so always a good and exciting thing

[1Iota]

I would love this.  It is one of my favorite things about Freestyle as opposed to folkstyle.   It is a much simpler call than stalling and it makes fleeing action impossible without consequences.  

[GradeTough]

Would be a great change. Kids would really develop proper skill for circling in and other ways to benefit from the rule that translates in all styles.

[Coach V]

Get the National Federation to do it and we will.

[Numbers]

I think it would have to be more like the current college rule.  If someone pushes or walks an opponent out of bounds without letting the other person back on the mat, the stalling or point would go against the pusher.

High school wrestling should not be get an underhook and walk the guy off the mat for points.

[imnofish]

I think it would have to be more like the current college rule.  If someone pushes or walks an opponent out of bounds without letting the other person back on the mat, the stalling or point would go against the pusher.

High school wrestling should not be get an underhook and walk the guy off the mat for points.

I agree.  Way too much of that behavior being rewarded...

[ramjet]

I think it would have to be more like the current college rule.  If someone pushes or walks an opponent out of bounds without letting the other person back on the mat, the stalling or point would go against the pusher.

High school wrestling should not be get an underhook and walk the guy off the mat for points.

I agree.  Way too much of that behavior being rewarded...

Disagree it's not that simple and if it is then that wrestler needs to be coached up on how to circle away from that undertook and turn it into offense. Plenty of technique to prevent that from happening. The key is ACTION.

[dforsythe]

I'd be more worried about the way guys are using the russian tie to push people around the mat and get stalling calls.

[imnofish]

I'd be more worried about the way guys are using the russian tie to push people around the mat and get stalling calls.

Yes.  Also, an underhook or overhook and a wrist.  I've seen heavyweights do the same with double inside collar tie.  If a kid is simply pushing his opponent around, but never making a serious commitment to an offensive move, he's stalling.

[Stripes]

I added this to another tread earlier, but I want to get a feel for how others feel about this topic, THE PUSH OUT RULE.  Having coached for 21 years, I have often wondered if this rule could create an added benefit to our great sport.

The way I see it, refs are way to inconsistent in their stalling calls (meaning from ref to ref) and there are too many wrestlers that ride the line and become good a backing out when they feel they are in trouble.  This would do away with all of that, at least in the neutral position.  I think it would lead to more action on the mat, less stoppages in the neutral position, more scoring, and an overall more exciting product for the fans.

Thoughts?

Stop calling it a push out and start calling it a step out. Watch freestyle and Greco. It is not a sumo match. Very difficult to simply push a guy out, but also, if I can control your arm and push, and your only defense is to go backwards, maybe I should score.

[grasshopper]

I may get long winded here so I’ll make my main point at the beginning: I’d argue that for 75% of the season there are rarely issues with the current stalling rule.  That being said, once regionals begin it appears that the officials become increasingly antsy to call stalling, and make calls that are inconsistent/ not warranted.  I don’t think the problem lies with the rule, rather how it is enforced at the state tournament.
I watched a wrestler secure two stalling calls in a semi finals match this weekend when he was down by 2 points by merely frantically hand fighting and charging his opponent.  The leading wrestler essentially had to chose between taking an off balance shot to avoid a stall call, or to risk getting another stall call when he counters the opponents hand fighting and charging to regain a good position.  At no time did the charging wrestler attempt a shot or a tie up that would lead to a takedown, he just exploited the stalling rule to close the point gap (not that I blame that wrestler, I blame the interpretation of the stalling rule)

There are a couple of problems that I have with the proposed push out rule (I’m hesitant to say “step out” rule because I think that fleeing the mat is an adequate existing rule  for stepping out). 
1. Just because a wrestler is walking forward does not mean that they are not stalling.  A skilled wrestler would be able to repeatedly work into a favorable position and slowly work his opponent off the mat for cheap points in my opinion (without ever truely attempting a takedown or any real offense).
2. The goal of folk style wrestling is to pin your opponent, and the scoring rules reflect that goal.  Every step that progresses a wrestler to that goal in rewarded with points (take your opponent down, reversals, escaping control, and of course back points).  Rewarding a wrestler for forcing their opponent out of bounds does not move the wrestler any closer to this goal in my opinion, as they both will return to the same position they were before the push out.  (I am not arguing that a wrestler who rarely wins by fall is wrestling the wrong way, rather just that scoring in general should reflect the goal of pinning your opponent.)
3. Finally, I think that the higher caliber wrestlers could potentially maneuver this rule to create more interesting matches, but the primary issue would be with the average and sub .500 wrestlers (most wrestlers at the high school level fall closer to this skill level than the individuals that wrestle at the state tournament). Physically strong sub .500 wrestlers would use this rule as a crutch to acquire cheap points against other inexperienced wrestlers (without actuallly ever attempting to “actually wrestle”).  You see this happen with some inexperienced wrestlers and headthrows, but at least with headthrows are actual attempts to pin and takedown an opponent.

I apologize for the lengthy post, and for those of you that actually made it through my rambling I’d be interested to hear your take on my post.

[Fan1]

A few points from my perspective on this:

If one wrestler is coming forward to engage either for a throw, trip or to get control of his opponent before taking a shot he is significantly more exposed while the wrestler backing up is avoiding contact and not staying in the center circle.  I don't think its about choosing between taking an off balance shot to avoid a stall call, if you are countering your opponents hand fighting and standing your ground and/or in the future there is a much smaller chance anyone is going to call stalling.  If both wrestlers are working to engage and stay in the middle of the mat this wouldn't happen.   

Two wrestlers that are the same weight should be able to stay relatively in the center circle if they both are engaging and looking to score.  If someone is "just pushing" like many people like to spout, they are putting themselves out of position to be thrown or have their legs attacked as they are either walking straight in or leaning to hard trying to push you off the mat.  95% of offensive moves come from attacking an opponent that is either stepping towards you willingly or perhaps you made step with hand fighting and ties or at a minimum they are staying in the circle.  How many offensive moves do you have when someone is backing up?   

Just because you don't like the underhook a guy has or a Russian doesn't mean you get to back away and claim the guy isn't doing anything with it.  If he's truly not going to do anything with it your wrestler should be able to stand his ground and work out of the tie or counter it.  Again, backing up in this situation is stalling.

I do think this is one of the toughest calls for refs to be consistent on because wrestlers, coaches and fans aren't on the same page on when it should be called.  It would be interesting if someone could pull the statistics from the state tournament to see how many stalling calls were awarded in the 1st and 2nd periods versus the 3rd.  Even though if you ask a ref outside of a match if they should be taking the score or situation of the match into consideration when calling stalling they will say no, I would imagine 3rd period stalling calls are much higher.  OT stalling calls would likely drop way off as refs don't want to decide the match even if the kid is doing the same thing he got dinged for in the 3rd.

[Kyle]

I like it. I hate watching kids that play the edge of the mat.

[TomM]

'hate' is a very strong emotion.