Refs and Stalling

[SP]

Get the top officials working the State Tournament would be a better place to start.

[briggs]

SP, sorry to say this but that will never happen under the current system.  There are a lot of great officials out there that have not had a chance to work the state tourney.  They put in the time, have the rankings but don't get picked.

[maggie]

SP,  how do you think officials get better?...working the tournament had to be a big deal to younger officials who are given the opportunity and I would suspect that a lot pressure comes with it..personally, I don't pay much attention as to how an officials officiating, I'm to busy watching the match...I'm not an official, but if there was one piece of advise I could give to a young official, it would be to never bring attention to there selfs..

[skincondition]

SP, sorry to say this but that will never happen under the current system.  There are a lot of great officials out there that have not had a chance to work the state tourney.  They put in the time, have the rankings but don't get picked.

I would agree with this.  I have seen a younger guy that reffed our sectional a couple times and I know quite a few other sectionals over the past 7-10 years.  I think I saw him on TV at the Cheesehead too.  He has had to been reffing for over 15 years now.  Haven't seen him at any of the State tourneys, but he certainly is one of the best in the business.  To be honest I don't even know his name probably because he keeps such a low profile and there isn't any issues when he refs.  Maybe he will be here in Madison next weekend reffing the team tourney.

[Marty Sparty]

You can't call a stalemate in high school wrestling for lack of action. That was actually stressed to officials at the pre-season workshops; too many officials are using stalemates instead of calling stalling. By definition, a stalemate is a situation where neither wrestler can improve his position. By definition, lack of action means one or both wrestlers is stalling. Exceptions are no action on the edge of the mat and the top wrestler going to a stalling hold in the ultimate tie breaker, but in both instances the stalemate should only be called once.

[Brett Favre - R.I.P.]

The ref from Tomah was terrible. He cost the Kaukauna kid the match at 106 I think it was

[SP]

I do not like the fact that there are some top officials watching the state meet and not reffing.

The current system is flawed at best. Coaches deal with kids coming close to making the state meet each year. They tell their wrestlers to make the improvements and work harder and you will give yourself a better chance of qualifying next year. Why do we not expect the same from our officials. The best kids earn a spot at the state meet and the officials have some type of rotation.

The system of ranking officials is flawed. There is a ranking system that coaches fill out and they give them a score of 1 to 6. If a coach ranks an official with a ranking of 5 or higher with a score of 4 or lower, they have to give a reason why. Coaches do not want to write down real reasons because some officials can see the comments and do not trust that they are not shared with others.

All officials make mistakes and all coaches make mistakes. The difference between the officials that are respected is how they respond to the coaches. The officials that respect the craft of officiating are not afraid to speak to a coach about a call. In some cases they will admit fault and they show a genuine interest is wanting to see calls through the coaches eyes. What coaches hate is when an official is to arrogant to admit they might have blown a call. I have seen many officials make wrong a call and if questioned by the coach they make up something to help make their call correct. Long time officials making elementary mistakes is not acceptable.

Example- ref with a master ranking calls stalling by the top man for not returning the wrestler on bottom to the mat after five seconds. The ref stops the match to make the call when they are suppose to let action continue when they are on their feet. You just gave the top man a free mat return and the bottom wrestler has to fight back to his feet.
Example- not rewarding a wrestler a takedown when the defensive wrestler is on his but and has hands around the back of defensive wrestler but the defensive wrestler has hands locked in the crotch. There is actually a picture in the book on these situations and for some reason officials seem to use their own judgement instead of making consistent calls.

How to make the system better? Create videos with wrestling situations and action that is up with the current techniques. Offer this to officials online and they can score the matches as they see them. They can then see how well they do compared to what should have been called. This would take a large amount of time but if it were created you could track how many situations/ matches each official reviews and scores. This would go into their ranking score. Not watching these videos would count against their score. Let's reward the officials that put extra time into the craft and who are willing to change as the sport has changed.

Coaches are constantly tweaking what they teach as technique changes from year to year. I would hope that most officials would take the opportunity to view matches to improve their ability to call matches as close to the book as they can.

The bottom line is we want the best kids wrestling at the state meet and we want them officiated by the best officials in the state. The best officials are invisible to the match. This is about giving the kids the best chance to decide matches on their own and not have matches decided by elementary mistakes for an official. There are some great officials in our state and they should be rewarded by doing the tournaments at the end of the year.

[maggie]

   ....Dang refs! They do it all the time! Almost Ever match! Not one of them are capable of make a decent or right call! ...We should just fire the whole bunch of them and let the parents who know more than they do, do the officiating!..... .........

[SP]

One of the best refs in the state lives in your town Maggie! He should be at the state each year.

[imnofish]

  ....Dang refs! They do it all the time! Almost Ever match! Not one of them are capable of make a decent or right call! ...We should just fire the whole bunch of them and let the parents who know more than they do, do the officiating!..... .........

...unless the parent is a ref.   

[SP]

Also, I never said all the refs are bad. All I am asking is that we offer them more to improve their ability to call matches better. What is wrong with wanting that.

Here is a golden idea, make a video game that challenges you to make difficult calls and scores you on accuracy, speed and correctness.

[Numbers]

The ref from Tomah was terrible. He cost the Kaukauna kid the match at 106 I think it was

D1 106 I thought there were 3 close call that all went against Kaukauna.  Gave up a first period TD then was awarded an immediate escape.  Thought Kaukauna had 2 back points that were missed later.  And that last TD was also a tough call.  Will be interesting to see what the FoxSports camera angle shows but refs don't have that option. 

D2 160 I thought the ref did well with some end of period calls (even making a correction).  Just wonder how much you should be able to block with your head into someone's chest before stalling calls start happening.

In general I was very surprised how significant of differences there were between many refs on how to call the kids out/in of bounds this weekend.  Determining takedowns, escapes, or just off the mat.

[SP]

I also do not like the adaptations that Wisconsin has to some rules. In all other states a takedown is earned when the wrestler secures both legs on the mat. In Wisconsin you have to be above the knees or have pressure on the chins to earn the takedown. Why? This makes it harder for officials to make the correct call and it opens up room for officials to award points differently. I think the rules need to be as simple and easy to help eliminate judgement. Easiest on officials, easier for fans to understand, and puts the winning in the hands of the kids wrestling which is what we all want!
The takedown at the ankles rule I thought was changed last year in Wisconsin. I thought they said they would call if on the edge by the ankles and at the end of periods but I have seen many officials ignore that change. Old habits?

[maggie]

I understand what your saying SP, and I can't help but to agree with almost all of it, but we have to sooner or later give these younger officials a shot, as far as coaches rating them, all coaches may differed on there opinions as to certain calls that are made, some may believe that stalling should be called more, some May believed less, so were really not gaining much there,the way one top notch official may call a match and have great results may not be how another one calls it that also gets great results. You certainly do have some good ideas as to improving officiating, I'm not an expert by any means as to knowing all the rules of the sport, but I do see that those who intrepid the rules from there own personally perspective stick out more that those who don't as far as big match questionable calls go...if I'm you, And you feel that strongly about your opinions as to better officiating, I would mail Dave Anderson and let him hear what ya have to say about it..I'm sure he has open ears and would listen to anything that a person has to say about making wrestling better for all involved...

[Wisconsinpitbull]

Maggie, did you go to a typing/grammar/spelling course during the time I've been offline??   

I agree with what you're saying Maggie, I like SP's idea about the online situation scoring videos and think a call or letter to the top might be a good way to go.