Wisconsin vs Michigan State ( Sunday)

[hammen]

Really dislike any rule that brings subjectivity into play. Not sure what benefit of changing the objective rule of 1 supporting point to this imaginary cylinder.

[Badger_Fan]

My initial point was more directed at the match in general, not the rule - Hein was benefitting from the rule as he had an elevated single.  Had he scored on that takedown, I imagine some would be applauding this rule and expounding on its benefits as increasing the wrestling space and letting them wrestle. 

The counter and takedown by Rizqallah all happened in-bounds after the "controversial call." 

I'm not sure what the controversy is here at all, other than arguing the merits of the rule.  Hein was benefitting from the rule and should have scored that takedown.

My argument is that when Hein elevated the leg, he stepped out of bounds and no part of his body or Rizqallah's body was in bounds or in the cylinder.  It was pretty clear from the TV replay that his feet were both 1 foot out of bounds and the action should have been stopped and they should have been sent back to the center to restart.  More than likely, the period should have ended 0-0 instead of 0-2 in Rizqallah's favor.

They were out of bounds, no doubt.  And I am not a huge fan of the cylinder rule - so we agree there.

However, you left out that Hein could (should) have gotten the takedown taking a 2-0 lead.  I guess I just don't understand why people are speaking as though Hein got taken down because of this call, when in fact he was benefitting (or could/should have benefitted) from the call.

[MantyShip160]

The argument I'm making is not based off the Hein match. I'm making an argument against the cylinder itself in any situation. In my opinion you can not have a definition using supporting points and an invisible cylinder together based simply off the general definition of a "supporting point". Which to me means physically supporting, not in the air. Don't get me wrong. I like having action at the edge and agree they need to wrestle and not flee the mat, but not to the point of body parts floating in air across an invisible line. Either your physically touching and in bounds or you're out. Plain and simple. And it would reduce the chance of getting a call wrong.... I don't envy refs at all, they definitely have it tough no doubt.

[Spartan]

Manty,

It does not make it tough on Officials. We understand the rule and know what we are looking for. It does make it hard on the fans who do not understand the rules, and the casual fan. But if you notice where officials at the college level position themselves for the out of bounds calls it is alot different than where they position themselves at the high school level. At the college level we stradle the line to see the exact call that was made in Hiens match. Since the coaches can video review any call except a pin they have the opportunity to have a call overruled.  So the NCAA has put measures in to make sure the right call is made. The  Big Ten also has two officials on every dual to help with calling the action. They have also given the officials the right to review a call at their own discresion to make sure the call was right,  so the new rules have safe guards put in place to make sure the match is called correctly.

I will admit it has opened up matches and I am enjoying the lack of safe areas for wrestlers to try to avoid action.

[imnofish]

Manty,

It does not make it tough on Officials. We understand the rule and know what we are looking for. It does make it hard on the fans who do not understand the rules, and the casual fan. But if you notice where officials at the college level position themselves for the out of bounds calls it is alot different than where they position themselves at the high school level. At the college level we stradle the line to see the exact call that was made in Hiens match. Since the coaches can video review any call except a pin they have the opportunity to have a call overruled.  So the NCAA has put measures in to make sure the right call is made. The  Big Ten also has two officials on every dual to help with calling the action. They have also given the officials the right to review a call at their own discresion to make sure the call was right,  so the new rules have safe guards put in place to make sure the match is called correctly.

I will admit it has opened up matches and I am enjoying the lack of safe areas for wrestlers to try to avoid action.

So, it is apparently living up to its objective.  Good.  Now, how can the NCAA most effectively help fans understand the new rule?  Is anything being done to accomplish that?

[bkraus]

As far as I understand the rule, the cylinder only comes into play on near falls.  I haven't watched the dual yet but from my understanding, and reading, the scoring situation happened on a takedown?  I don't think the cylinder rule applies there.

BKRAUS  The cylinder rule applies to all wrestling at the edge. Any part of the body that breaks the cylinder wrestling continues. This rule as I said earlier is not new but has been part of the rule changes that allowed one supporting point in at the edge of the mat. In the beginning it took some getting accustom to but now it is just part of the process. as for the 3,6,9, 12 areas of the mat that is why they put in the rule that the safety apron has to be a minimum of 5 feet for all mats and put restrictions on where video taping can take place ect. I have enjoyed how they have opened up the wrestling on the edge when I give my pre match talk I remind them that there is no safe area any longer and everymatch wrestlers will look at you like they did not know.  The rule changes have been made due to the changes in international wrestling over the last year and the NCAA believes that if they open up the wrestling area it will give us more scoring and this will bring in more fans. At least that is what we were told at the rules meetings this past fall.

Thanks for the clarification.

[MantyShip160]

While I don't agree 100% with the cylinder rule (I agree with most of it), it is nice to have refs on the forum willing to put clarification to the rules. Also always nice to have a healthy conversation about them. Thanks for the clarification Spartan!

[MNbadger]

I apologize if this was already stated.
I am not necessarily defending the rule but...

The idea of being able to earn back points and a fall with any point in was to enlarge the mat and more importantly, address "running" or avoidance of scoring.

The "cylinder rule" does the same thing.  If supporting points are outside the line and his pelvis is still over the mat,doesn't it make sense to consider the wrestler to be in bounds?

Looking at it another way, you could really have more of the wrestlers in bounds on their feet compared to someone pinning another with just the edge of one of their shoes in.

[Oldtimer]

So by that logic when AP steps out of bounds as long as his arm is in the field he's golden.  Watched Pitt and Penn State last night and I think the same call opportunity came up and they called the wrestlers out as soon as the foot went out of bounds.  I'm pretty sure there was a large part of the body still in bounds from both wrestlers.

[imnofish]

However the rule is being interpreted and applied, the best thing for wrestlers to do is keep wrestling until the whistle is blown and not worry about the line.  The ref will take care of that.

[whatever]

So by that logic when AP steps out of bounds as long as his arm is in the field he's golden.  Watched Pitt and Penn State last night and I think the same call opportunity came up and they called the wrestlers out as soon as the foot went out of bounds.  I'm pretty sure there was a large part of the body still in bounds from both wrestlers.

I would say that on a touchdown,  requiring the ball to break the plane is the equivalent of "being in the cylinder "....

[imnofish]

So by that logic when AP steps out of bounds as long as his arm is in the field he's golden.  Watched Pitt and Penn State last night and I think the same call opportunity came up and they called the wrestlers out as soon as the foot went out of bounds.  I'm pretty sure there was a large part of the body still in bounds from both wrestlers.

I would say that on a touchdown,  requiring the ball to break the plane is the equivalent of "being in the cylinder "....

Good analogy.  Way to bring a new perspective to the discussion!   

[MNbadger]

Yep, perfect, simple explanation.

[badgerjohn]

So by that logic when AP steps out of bounds as long as his arm is in the field he's golden.  Watched Pitt and Penn State last night and I think the same call opportunity came up and they called the wrestlers out as soon as the foot went out of bounds.  I'm pretty sure there was a large part of the body still in bounds from both wrestlers.

Just watched Pitt at Penn St 174 Matt Brown from the DVR.  Gotta agree Oldtimer, same call opportunity, different call. 

Really dislike any rule that brings subjectivity into play. Not sure what benefit of changing the objective rule of 1 supporting point to this imaginary cylinder.

Inconstancy is not acceptable.  Any time a simple rule change can reduce subjectivity, the entire sport benefits.

 

[imnofish]

So by that logic when AP steps out of bounds as long as his arm is in the field he's golden.  Watched Pitt and Penn State last night and I think the same call opportunity came up and they called the wrestlers out as soon as the foot went out of bounds.  I'm pretty sure there was a large part of the body still in bounds from both wrestlers.

Just watched Pitt at Penn St 174 Matt Brown from the DVR.  Gotta agree Oldtimer, same call opportunity, different call. 

Really dislike any rule that brings subjectivity into play. Not sure what benefit of changing the objective rule of 1 supporting point to this imaginary cylinder.

Unfortunately, humans are not perfect and no rule will eliminate inconsistencies.  Still, you have to keep trying to do better.  I think that's what the rule change is all about.

Inconstancy is not acceptable.  Any time a simple rule change can reduce subjectivity, the entire sport benefits.