Wisconsin Wrestling Online

I preface this thread with a few things: I love high school wrestling. I want it to be better. I don't have all the answers and don't profess to. I am not against any size of kid, and don't want to take away opportunities from anyone to participate in the sport I love.

That said, I have come to the belief that there are too many weights in wrestling. The numbers consistently show this, yet we consistently ignore it. I know there will be arguments that say that regional numbers are not the best way to determine things, but it is the only real data I can get my hands on. I have emailed both Tritz at Trackwrestling and the WIAA for the body fat data, and for some reason, have been denied. Though I would argue that the data they would give would only give argument to what the weights would be, and not how many.

Here goes:(apologies for the formatting)

First, an interesting fact: Of the 48 regionals for all three divisions this season,  5 had more than 50% of the teams with 13 or 14 kids on the roster.

Teams with 12 or less kids on the regional roster over time (goes in order D1, D2, D3)

2014     54.1%         61.5%     74.3%
2013     56.7%         61.9%     76.9%
2012     49.2%         61.2%     67.6%
2011     62.5%         64.4%     ??????   (Somehow lost this number?)
2010     50.7%         54.3%     64.4%
2009     50.8%         57.0%     72.9%
2008     45.7%         61.5%     70.4%
2007     48.4%         57.8%     69.2%
2006     38.6%         55.0%     69.4%
2005     46.4%         56.9%     66.7%

AVG      50.3%         59.2%     70.2%

The biggest argument that I see people trying to make against a reduction in weights is this;

"This will take away opportunity from some kids to go to the State tournament if you reduce weights."

Funny when they realigned weights that happened and few argued unless their kid was effected.

Well You can reduce weights and add one place from each weight class that will more than keep the opportunity there for the kids to make the State Tournament.

For example; Realign the weights to coincide with College and then add to the 4th place in D3 Sectionals 5th place at the D1 level for State Qualification and you actually pick up opportunity.

We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

Yes and open JV up to 8th grade and you will increase opportunities.

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 10:13:19 AM
Yes and open JV up to 8th grade and you will increase opportunities.

Ram, I love that idea.  It's a version of JHI, but yet doesn't throw an 8th grader in against a senior.  This might also increase the number of JV tournaments throughout the state. 

I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

The only lost opportunities are when a team is lost and a co-op is formed and that is going to continue to happen unless changes are made.  Everyone can make cases and examples by using the top 10% and bottom 10% but it is the middle 80% that the rules and system should look to maximize.  I think we will see more co-ops and even conferences dropping wrestling.  AD's don't want to be the bad guy but if they get together and the whole conference does it they just blame everyone else.  Maybe D1 and D3 do not have to have the same system rules and if so allow a D3 team to move up a division.

You need a JV to have a varsity because you need a place to development and you need back-ups.  Just adding junior high kids to the JV is not a great solution but I would like to see 8th graders allowed to wrestle JV.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 23, 2014, 11:35:40 AM
The only lost opportunities are when a team is lost and a co-op is formed and that is going to continue to happen unless changes are made.  Everyone can make cases and examples by using the top 10% and bottom 10% but it is the middle 80% that the rules and system should look to maximize.  I think we will see more co-ops and even conferences dropping wrestling.  AD's don't want to be the bad guy but if they get together and the whole conference does it they just blame everyone else.  Maybe D1 and D3 do not have to have the same system rules and if so allow a D3 team to move up a division.

You need a JV to have a varsity because you need a place to development and you need back-ups.  Just adding junior high kids to the JV is not a great solution but I would like to see 8th graders allowed to wrestle JV.

First off we are on the same page with JV.

But Co-Op the Opportunity is still their in fact it is increased because instead of only 5 kids in room you have 12-13-14 and the training quality and practice parters is increased therefore better development now sure you may have to compete but the opportunity is there.

Quote from: Scooter67 on February 23, 2014, 11:28:44 AM
I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights and have the skill levels to compete at higher weights so they have the Opportunity to advance if they put the work into it. the younger ones at the lower weights how about wrestle JV increase the opportunities there so they can develop instead of throwing them to the wolves if they cannot compete with the wolves?

If you cut Varsity weight classes and "force" the schools to develop JV programs that opens far more opportunities and wrestling for EVERYONE. Now throw in 8th grade inclusion and you have the workings of some really fun wrestling.

Want to have JV State go ahead thats OK even better I guess. But increase JV tournaments and wrestling gets better overall and participation numbers increase statewide.

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 12:56:40 PM

Quote from: Scooter67 on February 23, 2014, 11:28:44 AM
I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights and have the skill levels to compete at higher weights so they have the Opportunity to advance if they put the work into it. the younger ones at the lower weights how about wrestle JV increase the opportunities there so they can develop instead of throwing them to the wolves if they cannot compete with the wolves?

If you cut Varsity weight classes and "force" the schools to develop JV programs that opens far more opportunities and wrestling for EVERYONE. Now throw in 8th grade inclusion and you have the workings of some really fun wrestling.

Want to have JV State go ahead thats OK even better I guess. But increase JV tournaments and wrestling gets better overall and participation numbers increase statewide.

Cutting 106 would be terrible for the sport....let's not forget that the person who started this thread also believes this years 106 class is the deepest weight all the way through.  Your argument about freshman/ sophomore just doesn't hold water with me.  I don't care what grade they are in....the lower weights are the kids who really don't have any other viable options for sports....these are the kids that work there tails off because it's "their" sport.  That's what makes this sport so great.....everyone can compete. 

I go back to the question of which wrestlers do not belong at state this year?  It's easy to say yeah we want less weight classes....but when you have to put a name next to those who you think should lose out...it's not so easy.  And yes...high school is about opportunity and experience....and what better experience than wrestling at the kohls center!

So you think not one of those 106 lbers is cutting weight to get there?

Answer honestly.......

Those who know or have 106 lber are they doing any cutting to get to or maintain 106? Can they eat what they want when they want to and stay at 106?

Want to find out about 106 lbers check the height of those competing at 106 5'-8" at 106 are skinny not little. Several of the 106 lber at Shawano yesterday were pretty tall kids looked really skinny. So I wonder how many of those really little guys are 106?

Quote from: MHSfan on February 23, 2014, 10:02:25 AM
We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

Yes we need better recruiting.....have to be creative sometimes with society today.  I'm willing to bet that you have several 220# kids in the school???heck Random Lake a school of what 300?   Had two 220 and 2 heavy weights.  Even if you don't have kids that size what are you suggesting? Cutting the two biggest weight classes?  While that may help your team temporarily what about the teams who have these weights but miss kids at 170 and 189?  Do we then cut those two classes?  How do you think cutting the heavier weight classes affects relationship with recruiting football players?

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 01:29:17 PM

Quote from: MHSfan on February 23, 2014, 10:02:25 AM
We need less. Recruit who? In our school there is not a kid over 220. We have 32 kids in our room of which 2 weigh 195 and 3 at 182. So to fill a team we have to send kids out with a weight disadvantage to begin with. You really think a kid is going to stay out for 4 years after a year of that.  In a school of less than 500 it is going to be hard to field a 14 man squad and still develop younger kids by sending them to JV and freshman events. Less weight classes doesn't punish the schools who do a great job recruiting and it doesn't limit opportunies for kids. That is where JV and Varsity reserve come in. Kaukauna, Wausau West, Rapids, Ellsworth already run two varsity squads.

Yes we need better recruiting.....have to be creative sometimes with society today.  I'm willing to bet that you have several 220# kids in the school???heck Random Lake a school of what 300?   Had two 220 and 2 heavy weights.  Even if you don't have kids that size what are you suggesting? Cutting the two biggest weight classes?  While that may help your team temporarily what about the teams who have these weights but miss kids at 170 and 189?  Do we then cut those two classes?  How do you think cutting the heavier weight classes affects relationship with recruiting football players?

Recruiting yea nobody does that already  ::) JV increase in opportunity for JV will grow the sport just like youth programs but JV is more important. Not every school has the resources that D1 schools do yet you have forfeits in D1 al the time. Heck some the strongest programs around are D2 and D3 they have development programs like JV and reserve and community involvement and support.

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

I would ask....

how does it improve the sport to cut weights?

who does it help?

pretend we cut 2 weights, how does it help those teams with 8 or less wrestlers?

why do we take data from end of the year? at this point kids are injured, not eligible or have quit for whatever reason... is it a true measure?

how does it help the state tournament?

how does it help the team tournament?

how does it help any tournament during the season?

how does it help dual meets?

I would argue it helps nothing.... except one thing... it makes weights stronger because it stacks more kids in less weights... but it does almost nothing to help teams, for every team it may help it will hurt others and then you will always have half the teams it does nothing for because they only field 3-9 wrestlers every year

what do other sports do? I mean year in and year out the best football teams are about the same and the worst are about the same... should we make it 8 on 8 to help those that can't build a program? That is what it comes down to, the program... some school stink at wrestling but are great at basketball or softball or whatever...

I say if your looking to stack the weights then eliminate a weight or 2, if your looking to make average teams better I think your wasting your time

Ramjet, Div1 106lbs(7)almost 1/2 the field are upperclassmen,so not majority of underclassmen.Yes the 106lbers cut wt just like every other wt class.My son is one of your so called tall skinny 106lbers(5'8) he has been at 106lbs since day 1,is he cutting a little wt(yes),but also eats what he wants during the week.I wrestled 98lbs all 4 yrs of high school,why should kids that are naturally small be punished ???.

Quote from: boowrestle on February 23, 2014, 01:51:38 PM
Ramjet, Div1 106lbs(7)almost 1/2 the field are upperclassmen,so not majority of underclassmen.Yes the 106lbers cut wt just like every other wt class.My son is one of your so called tall skinny 106lbers(5'8) he has been at 106lbs since day 1,is he cutting a little wt(yes),but also eats what he wants during the week.I wrestled 98lbs all 4 yrs of high school,why should kids that are naturally small be punished ???.

I have seen quite a few 106 pounders punish some plates at the buffet!

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 01:38:02 PM
Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

So fill a bunch of erroneous weights and continue with many forfeits the number do not lie but you want to ignore them and continue down a path of deception. Again the goal would not be ignore smaller folks they can gain weight just like anyone else and the admission is there they CUT WEIGHT. Heck why are they cutting if they are good enough to compete at 106 and make the State Tournament are you saying they are not good enough to compete at 113 and make it?

How many 106 lbers move up in weight every year?

The GOAL is to eliminate the FF. Create a development program that has legitimacy and give those younger wrestler true opportunity and make the Tournament Series what it should be a tough top level competition to see who the best wrestlers in the state are at that level. You guys are missing the point you would increase the numbers if you cut the weights back.  How can you continue argue with the numbers?

Heck Jags thinks the numbers are wrong because they are taken at the end of the year yet he makes the argument for me by saying kids quitting really they quit they are not wrestling.

FF and the numbers are there the trend is there, yet you want to continue down that path despite the facts.....

Sure there are few smaller stare young men and gals but if they are cutting who are you trying to convince me or yourselves?

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 01:38:02 PM
Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

I also included things like grades and being injured

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 02:39:46 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 01:38:02 PM
Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

No more cutting than any other weight...infact several at 106 right now are cutting very if anything.  You seem worried about weight cutting....but only at 106?   If you cut weight classes and spread them out you will only create more weight cutting.  And no you don't....if coaches are filling weight classes with kids who are not ready.... When they could develop them on JV...that's a coaching problem.  

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 02:44:56 PM

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 02:39:46 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 01:38:02 PM
Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

No more cutting than any other weight...infact several at 106 right now are cutting very if anything.  You seem worried about weight cutting....but only at 106?   If you cut weight classes and spread them out you will only create more weight cutting.  And no you don't....if coaches are filling weight classes with kids who are not ready.... When they could develop them on JV...that's a coaching problem.  

So a coaching problem brought on by the desire to with fill weights they cannot. That being the case why not cut the number of weights and have those underclassman wrestle JV that should be of course there most belong.

Again the number do not lie we have F problem in this state and participation and your answer is always recruit but even though the statistics show that is not working.

Yes I think weight cutting culture is an issue i always felt that way. But I use that argument to reinforce an already valid point.

What about the numbers?

Do you think al these FF are good for the sport do you think weak and incomplete weight brackets at regionals are good for the sport or the Tournament series?

no one weight has that many more missing than another... not all teams are missing the same weight... so to just cut a weight helps who? the team missing that weight this year? what about next year?

Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 23, 2014, 03:36:18 PM
no one weight has that many more missing than another... not all teams are missing the same weight... so to just cut a weight helps who? the team missing that weight this year? what about next year?

+10000.  There is no right weight to cut....so why cut any?

It helps wrestling all together by reducing the open slots in brackets. Reduces the FF and open spots in brackets.

It helps with the development of younger underclass,an by allowing them to wrestle throughout the year against wrestlers more attune to their skill levels and will not demoralize them because week after week after week they get pounded on by more mature and physically developed older wrestlers. Then allow those 8th graders that are a capable to wrestle JV and you have increased opportunity.

It will actually entice schools and conferences to pursue more JV dual meets and tournaments. Those kids able to compete will not be thown into the fire just to fill some weights.

It will reduce FF.

It will increase the quality and competitive nature of the State Tournament series.

For those worried about the number of kids going to State that is easy.

Lets Take D3

Eliminate 2 weight classes.
But allow 3 Places from each Regional compete at the Sectional that adds 6 more kids from each Regional than today.
Then Allow 4 places each weight from each Sectional qualify for State.

2 Weight classes would eliminate the 6 wrestlers from each Sectional for the State Tournament as it is today But do as suggested above and you actually will qualify 6 plus 6 more so more wrestlers could go to the State Tournament from each Sectional.

It all goes to whether wrestling is a team sport or an individual sport.

I think for duals we should have maybe 10 weight classes.

I think for individual tournaments we should have 14 weight classes.  But if it is truly individual, why do we have divisions?  The size of the school does not matter to an individual.  Just a bit frustrating at this time of the year when you see some kids stay home and you see other less talented kids move on to state.  I think if it is truly an individual sport then have one 32 man bracket down at state and try to get the 32 best individuals down to state.  Have a qualification process and then maybe a wild card process like the NCAA's have for those wrestlers with "geography" problems.

For the individual state tournament series,  if you went to one class, I would not even mind seeing 20 weight classes.

The wrestlers are out there at the top and they deserve the experience.  The problem is our dual system as it is pretty much broken.  Not enough matches at each dual to warrant travel expenses, lack of big match-ups to excite wrestlers and fans,  and the outcome of 95% of duals is known before the kids even weigh in.

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 12:56:40 PM

Quote from: Scooter67 on February 23, 2014, 11:28:44 AM
I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights

I am not familiar with every 106lb wrestler, but Airk Furseth is a junior & is not cutting weight to wrestle at a 106.  He is also one of the most skilled & exciting wrestlers in the State.  Instead of focusing on year in school maybe you should focus on skill level.  With the heavier weights you are much more likely to find some big kid that was pulled out of the hallway to fill a heavy weight class.  With out a doubt the quality of wrestling in the  lower weight classes is superior to the heavier weight classes, so why eliminate a weight class where serious dedicated wrestlers exist.

I believe the size of the school does matter on a individual level , just on pure percentage basis . I don't have any data to back this up but lets just say 1 out of every 10 student's is a really good athlete then in a school of 1000 kids there is a much better chance of having a stud wrestler . Also most good wrestlers are made in the practice room . You see it up and down the state tournament brackets that most stud wrestlers have a team mate above or below a weight class . In a school of 300 or less kids you may have a very talented wrestler but if no one on the team is within a few weights of him how will he get pushed every day . Look at Kaukauna varsity reserve team . They take them to varsity tournament and win with back up wrestlers. We will never know the answer but how good would them kids be if they were on a small D-3 program ?

First off I am not the one who suggested cutting any particular weight but what is interesting is as soon as the topic is brought up everyone goes to 106. I wonder why?

Worriordad what is your point? That is funny a particular D3 school goes to D1 level tournaments all the time and paces and frankly wins many of them.

This is not about D3 there are FF in very large D1 schools and dual meets how come the programs are so strong at the D1 level then why any FF?

Where I'd ANYONE say that 106 is not competitive or any 106 particular wrestle at 106 is not a good wrestler?

Where were all you when they realigned the weights and cut the middle weight class those kids in that weight class where studs.

Look a the the numbers stay focused and address the numbers posted look at the regionals at ALL levels tell me why there are so many open brackets and so many open weights?

So just keep going that way?

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
First off I am not the one who suggested cutting any particular weight but what is interesting is as soon as the topic is brought up everyone goes to 106. I wonder why?

Worriordad what is your point? That is funny a particular D3 school goes to D1 level tournaments all the time and paces and frankly wins many of them.

This is not about D3 there are FF in very large D1 schools and dual meets how come the programs are so strong at the D1 level then why any FF?

Where I'd ANYONE say that 106 is not competitive or any 106 particular wrestle at 106 is not a good wrestler?

Where were all you when they realigned the weights and cut the middle weight class those kids in that weight class where studs.

Look a the the numbers stay focused and address the numbers posted look at the regionals at ALL levels tell me why there are so many open brackets and so many open weights?

So just keep going that way?

I can tell you where I was, I was at the coaches clinic, at national events, & on this forum offering the opinion that the changes made no sense.  I believed then & believe now that it made no sense to add a weight where there were so few kids & take one away where there were so many.  The reasoning, to attract more football players made even less sense. 

I was responding to your direct quote, "ok you can keep the 113 class that fine but you look who is at 106 & 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or juniors & if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights".   Sure sounded to me like you were advocating eliminating the 106lb class.

There are very few 106 lbers that couldn't compete at 113. What a bout the 300 lb kid they are rare but why not a class for them. I'm not even saying get rid of 106 just reduce the number.  How about 105 115 125 135 145 155 165 175 185 195 Hwt.  There's 11 and I left one for the small guys. 11 makes an automatic tie breaker.

My best idea is similar

115 125 135 145 155 165 175 185 195 Hwt.

These 10 weights, no allowances of any kind and must make the weight or lower 75% of your matches during the season to be eligible at that weight for the WIAA season.  Easier to fill weight classes where kids can wrestle at their natural weight or a weight class up rather than forcing more kids to cut to fill weight classes that are lower than the average high school weight.

Those would be the varsity weights.  I would take away 7 or 8 lbs from each weight class to create the JV weight classes.

Quote from: MHSfan on February 23, 2014, 06:07:53 PM
There are very few 106 lbers that couldn't compete at 113. What a bout the 300 lb kid they are rare but why not a class for them. I'm not even saying get rid of 106 just reduce the number.  How about 105 125 135 145 155 165 175 185 195 Hwt.  There's 10 and I left one for the small guys.

This looks more reasonable to me, but I'd be more likely to add in a weight at the lower end than the higher end.

Quite honestly, no high schooler should be pushing 285 anyway. That's not a healthy weight to begin with. There's plenty of naturally small-sized kids (and some career 106/113 pounders) to go around. Anyone over 285 that wants to wrestle should be cutting down to get to a reasonable weight. Any little guy under 106 is already taking a hit on the chin having to be giving up weight each match against bigger kids that are cutting down.

Why should the kids that are naturally smaller be forced to wrestle kids 20 pounds heavier, versus kids that are obese at 300 be forced to lose some weight to get down to a healthier one?  ???

12 weights is reasonable I like Docs weight idea except I would add 110 and 215-220.

Here me out 14 based on stats is too many but you want to consider the small guys then at the high end you have place for those that are little small to wrestle a 250+ guy.

Of course this is all just fun to talk about it will not happen so Aaron take it easy it's just banter.  ;)

Sorry Say Say I missed 115 I edited my post.  

Lets get creative and really do something that will help the sport of wrestling.  ie Shorten the season...start in Mid December....if we don't shorten the season..lets stop wrestling every weekend from the start of Dec through Feb.  Kids, coaches, and parents are sick of it.
# 1 reason kids don't join wrestling is because they value their weekends.  #2  the season is too long  #3  Their just pansies.  You will never hear a kid when asked why they don't join say "I'm not going to wrestle because there is 14 weight classes to choose from".  They don't come out because unlike any other sport we wrestle every weekend from Dec through Feb practice 4 days a week and 2 days of competition with one day off.   We do not need 45+ matches to figure out who the best in the state is. 

Another complaint I hear from coaches, parents and wrestlers is the tournaments are too long....all day!
we can shorten tournaments by shortening the match time....do we really need to wrestle 6 minutes to figure out who the better wrestler is?  lets do 1-2-2 on Saturdays or lets get crazy and do 1-1-2.

Just changing our sport either by shortening the season or by cutting back on weekends will get a lot more kids to join our sport.  Let's stop talking in circles about dropping weight classes...it will never better our sport. 

I think we should cut the HW class because all of those kids are overweight....I'm obviously being sarcastic, but by cutting 106, your just punishing smaller kids.

Ghetto....do the sport a favor and actually ask kids why they don't join wrestling.  That would be an eye opening study for everyone....guarantee you they will not say anything about 14 or 12 weight classes.

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 06:45:36 PM
12 weights is reasonable I like Docs weight idea except I would add 110 and 215-220.

Here me out 14 based on stats is too many but you want to consider the small guys then at the high end you have place for those that are little small to wrestle a 250+ guy.

Of course this is all just fun to talk about it will not happen so Aaron take it easy it's just banter.  ;)

Your the only with your panties in a bundle.  I'm not worried because the WIAA isn't making any changes anytime soon.

What is most fascinating is that we look at low numbers from regionals and think to ourselves we can fix that by reducing the number of weight classes!  Instead of actually dealing with the real problem with our sport.   

Biebs,the real problem with our sport has nothing to do with the season being too long ???

Boowrestle....yes it is.  The Wiaa season should be shortened.  The open tournaments can continue and kids can still choose whether to attend open tournaments and events.  But go ahead...keep arguing about 12 or 14.  Nobody ever said wrestling fans were the brightest bunch.

It's just so sad for me to read all the posts wanting g to get rid of 106. What are guys like me suppose to do if we like wrestling? I was 85# as a freshman, 90# as a sophomore. Defending 2 time freestyle champ and a good wrestler. It could not make varsity because I was too small. Wrestled at 112 as a senior but actually weighed I. At 109 for my 5th place match. 7# under what I could have weighed. Raise the lowest weight another 3# from there and I may have never made it there.

Now how many would never see a varsity match, not because they ae not good enough but be ause they are just too small for 115. Doc, easy for you to say. What did you wrestle at? Your like 200# plus now. Easy for all you it guys to say the lowest weight should be moved up, you had all kinds of splats to compete in.

I would have loved to play football but was too small. Also too small for baseball. Just got over powered.

There are a lot of forfeits at 285# why doing you guys suggest getting rid of 285 and or 220?

Issue is and has always been participation. We have it here in Manitowoc in all sports now. We DO have kids who could wrestle at 106 in our school but they don't wrestle for various reasons. We need to get those guys involved. A lot of it goes back to the youth programs. The better youth programs somehow always seem to fill all weight classes on the high school team.

I suggest that successful programs share what works with the other schools around them. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Mat side weighing to make excessive cutting less attractive.

Uniform update. Wrestlers get it but a lot if kids are not fond of the singlet. Combat shorts and compression tops would be more attractive to many youth.

Kids tournaments need to GET PARENTS IN THE STANDS! 1 coach per corner MAX. Fans a can film or cheer from the stands. You would never see a mom or dad half way in the lane screaming SHOOT during a basketball game.

Shorter season. Start after thanksgiving. 5 tournament max with   Additional match per day(6). 10 duals with maybe 2 per week at times. Would also help with excessive cutting because it would be too hard to yo-yo.

Mirror college weights with 106 112 and 119. Makes 13 weights and a tie breaker. Hilt in. 197 is good enough for college it should be good enough for high school.

Just some thoughts.

Thank-you MantyWrestler....finally some logic and real answer to the problems of low numbers. 

I love the long season. It makes the winters more tolerable.

Quote from: aarons23 on February 23, 2014, 07:26:34 PM

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 06:45:36 PM
12 weights is reasonable I like Docs weight idea except I would add 110 and 215-220.

Here me out 14 based on stats is too many but you want to consider the small guys then at the high end you have place for those that are little small to wrestle a 250+ guy.

Of course this is all just fun to talk about it will not happen so Aaron take it easy it's just banter.  ;)

Your the only with your panties in a bundle.  I'm not worried because the WIAA isn't making any changes anytime soon.

Boxers actually and not pink like yours.

I agree with everything mantywrestler says.  I am not against the little guy.  I am just against the ends of the bell curve.  There is no need for 220.  Yes it will hurt a few kids at each end of the spectrum.  I do see the argument that the real small guys really only can compete in wrestling as they are too small in other sports.  There is no great answer but I do believe that if you did what mantywrestler states it would be a huge boost.

I do think there are too many matches now and some coaches seemed to have the proper system to get their teams to peak at the right time.  We also have a lack of coaches and many of these same ideas would draw more coaches in or keep more coaches.

Quote from: MantyWrestler on February 23, 2014, 07:44:25 PM
It's just so sad for me to read all the posts wanting g to get rid of 106. What are guys like me suppose to do if we like wrestling? I was 85# as a freshman, 90# as a sophomore. Defending 2 time freestyle champ and a good wrestler. It could not make varsity because I was too small. Wrestled at 112 as a senior but actually weighed I. At 109 for my 5th place match. 7# under what I could have weighed. Raise the lowest weight another 3# from there and I may have never made it there.

Now how many would never see a varsity match, not because they ae not good enough but be ause they are just too small for 115. Doc, easy for you to say. What did you wrestle at? Your like 200# plus now. Easy for all you it guys to say the lowest weight should be moved up, you had all kinds of splats to compete in.

I would have loved to play football but was too small. Also too small for baseball. Just got over powered.

There are a lot of forfeits at 285# why doing you guys suggest getting rid of 285 and or 220?

Issue is and has always been participation. We have it here in Manitowoc in all sports now. We DO have kids who could wrestle at 106 in our school but they don't wrestle for various reasons. We need to get those guys involved. A lot of it goes back to the youth programs. The better youth programs somehow always seem to fill all weight classes on the high school team.

I suggest that successful programs share what works with the other schools around them. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Mat side weighing to make excessive cutting less attractive.

Uniform update. Wrestlers get it but a lot if kids are not fond of the singlet. Combat shorts and compression tops would be more attractive to many youth.

Kids tournaments need to GET PARENTS IN THE STANDS! 1 coach per corner MAX. Fans a can film or cheer from the stands. You would never see a mom or dad half way in the lane screaming SHOOT during a basketball game.

Shorter season. Start after thanksgiving. 5 tournament max with   Additional match per day(6). 10 duals with maybe 2 per week at times. Would also help with excessive cutting because it would be too hard to yo-yo.

Mirror college weights with 106 112 and 119. Makes 13 weights and a tie breaker. Hilt in. 197 is good enough for college it should be good enough for high school.

Just some thoughts.

Jack,

So the numbers in your area are down is this directly related to issues you outlined here?

Or is more related to the changing culture?

I have no issue with what you are suggesting and agree with all of it.

In fact mat side weighing are one thing I think would make the most dramatic change to this sport.

I even am changing my mind on the uniform thing as I saw enough C&B white Singlets this weekend to last me lifetime.

But how do feel about the lack of JV emphasis in this State and does the need to push kids ahead faster than they may be equipped to handle for the sake of filling varsity weights add to the failure of retaining many underclass man?

The WWF birth year model in my mind is one of the best models I really cannot find fault at with it and considering the use in youth and FS and Greco is very successful.  I mention this because of my feelings about the lack of JV at all divisions in High School Wrestling.

Quote from: BIEBS on February 23, 2014, 07:42:39 PM
Boowrestle....yes it is.  The Wiaa season should be shortened.  The open tournaments can continue and kids can still choose whether to attend open tournaments and events.  But go ahead...keep arguing about 12 or 14.  Nobody ever said wrestling fans were the brightest bunch.

I don't think the season is too long, but I do think we have way too many tournaments...we are talking about 8 or 9 weekends over 3 months including a weekend over Christmas break, depending on you and your team... any reason they need to wrestle 55 matches a year? What is wrong to going back to 35-40?

Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 24, 2014, 08:12:23 AM

Quote from: BIEBS on February 23, 2014, 07:42:39 PM
Boowrestle....yes it is.  The Wiaa season should be shortened.  The open tournaments can continue and kids can still choose whether to attend open tournaments and events.  But go ahead...keep arguing about 12 or 14.  Nobody ever said wrestling fans were the brightest bunch.

I don't think the season is too long, but I do think we have way too many tournaments...we are talking about 8 or 9 weekends over 3 months including a weekend over Christmas break, depending on you and your team... any reason they need to wrestle 55 matches a year? What is wrong to going back to 35-40?

I know of several teams that do not require tournaments but do require you be there for dual meets.

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 03:56:56 PM

Lets Take D3

Eliminate 2 weight classes.
But allow 3 Places from each Regional compete at the Sectional that adds 6 more kids from each Regional than today.
Then Allow 4 places each weight from each Sectional qualify for State.

2 Weight classes would eliminate the 6 wrestlers from each Sectional for the State Tournament as it is today But do as suggested above and you actually will qualify 6 plus 6 more so more wrestlers could go to the State Tournament from each Sectional.

4 kids at each weight go to state in D3? Are you serious? You want a bunch of kids with .500 records or below to qualify? I thought your against everyone getting a trophy

Do a little research before bashing D3.  For example, the 4th place finishers records at each weight class at the Bonduel Sectional...

23-10
28-13
35-8
33-9
29-12
19-13
33-9
26-5
27-14
31-5
7-5
29-10
39-5
17-8

Doesn't look like ANY below .500 wrestlers.  Many of them are state caliber wrestlers but won't get the chance to compete this week.  

Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 24, 2014, 08:18:57 AM

Quote from: ramjet on February 23, 2014, 03:56:56 PM

Lets Take D3

Eliminate 2 weight classes.
But allow 3 Places from each Regional compete at the Sectional that adds 6 more kids from each Regional than today.
Then Allow 4 places each weight from each Sectional qualify for State.

2 Weight classes would eliminate the 6 wrestlers from each Sectional for the State Tournament as it is today But do as suggested above and you actually will qualify 6 plus 6 more so more wrestlers could go to the State Tournament from each Sectional.

4 kids at each weight go to state in D3? Are you serious? You want a bunch of kids with .500 records or below to qualify? I thought your against everyone getting a trophy

Just making suggestions to offer a solution to the "leaving kids out" argument.

For conversations sake whats your suggestion?

Leave as is there is no issue?

Ummm switch_it just proved you wrong and if some of the weights were combined that number may even improve to a greater degree.

eliminating 2 weights...

makes the top teams even stronger

slightly helps the teams that can only field 11-12 if it eliminates weight they can't fill

does nothing to help the teams that field 10 or less to be more competitive... unless giving up 12 points is a good thing... and that is if one of their 10 wrestlers weights doesn't get cut or then they would be down to 9 kids and giving up 18 in a dual.

so your helping maybe 30% of the teams in the state? is it worth it?

you want more kids to go out and stay out? get rid of regionals... have a super sectional... each team bring 2 per weight that gives a 32 man bracket... very few would bring 2 so you probably only have a handful of matches in the first round. Bring the top 3 from each weight to state. Gives every JV a chance at state so it keeps them around when they are stuck behind a string of studs in their team's lineup

have less duals and more triple duals on thrusday... or have 4 teams and they wrestle on 2 mats Team A vs B, Team C vs D... wrestling at school A, the next week they wrestle at school B and B takes on C while A takes in D... or whatever, point is figure out a way to have more than 1 dual at one school per night instead of a team traveling to have 7 matches 4 FF's and 3 double FF's

have duals before a college dual, example... on a Friday night have a dual in the Feildhouse before a UW dual... or at any college in the state. Bring in more fans, lets the kids wrestle on a big stage.

have less tournaments

with these ideas... kids would have to make weight less often, give more JV an opportunity to compete on the biggest stage, get more fans in the stands and give more matches on a Thursday/Friday night

Quote from: switch_it on February 24, 2014, 08:31:22 AM

Do a little research before bashing D3.  For example, the 4th place finishers records at each weight class at the Bonduel Sectional...

23-10
28-13
35-8
33-9
29-12
19-13
33-9
26-5
27-14
31-5
7-5
29-10
39-5
17-8

Doesn't look like ANY below .500 wrestlers.  Many of them are state caliber wrestlers but won't get the chance to compete this week.  

I have done my research, you would have plenty with losing records and very close to .500... that is who you want at state? 7-5 and 19-13 are kids we want at state?

Indepedence, 24-19, 19-21

Necedah, 27-23, 15-21

Cedar Grove, 24-19

that is 7 wrestlers in 4 sectionals that have losing or just above losing records... that would all have made it to state.... after losing 2 matches at Sectionals.... If you lose twice in an 8 man bracket, not sure you should be wrestling at state.

Quote from: BIEBS on February 23, 2014, 07:24:41 PM
Ghetto....do the sport a favor and actually ask kids why they don't join wrestling.  That would be an eye opening study for everyone....guarantee you they will not say anything about 14 or 12 weight classes.

I have asked kids within my school. Of course they dont' say anything about weight classes. That makes no sense.

There are a million reasons why. We are also fighting hockey and skiing in our school in addition to the normal excuses.

I dispute that we are hurting that many kids. We had 13 kids at regionals. Two of them were 0-0, and one of those kids would never have wrestled if we didn't think we were close to winning a regional title. For every injury or grade issue (really, grade issues? No one fails anymore) there are almost an equal amount of kids who get bumped up just for regionals.

One year I took the teams with 13 and 14 kids on the regional roster and took out the 0-0 kids and the ones who had a .201 record or less. I think there were 69 kids in the entire state that would theoretically be bumped out of the state tournament.

Large successful teams have reserve teams that go to varsity tournaments. Heck, we even bump some JV kids up when we can to varsity tournaments. The losing opportunities argument no longer holds water, especially with the new challenge series introduced by the WWCA.

We will support the challenge series, though we will likely only send one or two kids to it. The $110 is a big steep for two kids who likely won't be able to go to "state" but I appreciate the efforts of those guys, and support their efforts.

I'm pretty sure that I'll never get this to even come to a vote but I continue to push, because I think in general, its also good for our sport.

Newsflash: Teams like mine, who are not challenging the Kaukauna's and Rapids, Merrill's and Milton's DON'T CARE about those teams. We don't care about beating them. What we care about is beating Homestead in front of our home crowd so we can generate more interest in our program. We might be able to overcome a FF or two, but when we are down 24-0 before it starts, it's a tough sell. Winning creates buzz, which creates more interest in the program.

I think over the long haul that we'd be helping more than 30%. You just made that number up, so there's no evidence either way.

With WIAA rules, we can't double dual unless we drop a tournament.

Many of us are old enough to have wrestled with 12 weights. Would you say there are more numbers now that we have more weight classes? I can't say for sure if we had less weights we'd have more kids, but the numbers continue to fall. "More opportunities" isn't working either. It is time to try something new.

I want to make sure everyone understands that the cost for the Regional event for JV is $10 per wrestler with a max of $100 for the team. Ghetto your cost would be $20 for your two wrestlers.

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 08:53:35 AM

Quote from: BIEBS on February 23, 2014, 07:24:41 PM
Ghetto....do the sport a favor and actually ask kids why they don't join wrestling.  That would be an eye opening study for everyone....guarantee you they will not say anything about 14 or 12 weight classes.

I have asked kids within my school. Of course they dont' say anything about weight classes. That makes no sense.

There are a million reasons why. We are also fighting hockey and skiing in our school in addition to the normal excuses.

I dispute that we are hurting that many kids. We had 13 kids at regionals. Two of them were 0-0, and one of those kids would never have wrestled if we didn't think we were close to winning a regional title. For every injury or grade issue (really, grade issues? No one fails anymore) there are almost an equal amount of kids who get bumped up just for regionals.

One year I took the teams with 13 and 14 kids on the regional roster and took out the 0-0 kids and the ones who had a .201 record or less. I think there were 69 kids in the entire state that would theoretically be bumped out of the state tournament.

Large successful teams have reserve teams that go to varsity tournaments. Heck, we even bump some JV kids up when we can to varsity tournaments. The losing opportunities argument no longer holds water, especially with the new challenge series introduced by the WWCA.

We will support the challenge series, though we will likely only send one or two kids to it. The $110 is a big steep for two kids who likely won't be able to go to "state" but I appreciate the efforts of those guys, and support their efforts.

Why would you only send two wrestlers.....send all your JV....that would be supporting it! 

Why in the friggin' world are we discussing reduction of weight classes during the week plus prior to the top wrestling events in our state!

If you can't stick to the positives of our sport over the next 12 days ... your part of the problem.

Quit with the negative waves!!

I'd send two kids because that is what I had.

Quote from: neutral on February 24, 2014, 09:26:46 AM
Why in the friggin' world are we discussing reduction of weight classes during the week plus prior to the top wrestling events in our state!

If you can't stick to the positives of our sport over the next 12 days ... your part of the problem.

Quit with the negative waves!!

I was going to wait. People asked.

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 09:27:19 AM
I'd send two kids because that is what I had.

How would you know what you'll have for next year?  Your a better recruiter than that.   ;)

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 09:01:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that I'll never get this to even come to a vote but I continue to push, because I think in general, its also good for our sport.

Newsflash: Teams like mine, who are not challenging the Kaukauna's and Rapids, Merrill's and Milton's DON'T CARE about those teams. We don't care about beating them. What we care about is beating Homestead in front of our home crowd so we can generate more interest in our program. We might be able to overcome a FF or two, but when we are down 24-0 before it starts, it's a tough sell. Winning creates buzz, which creates more interest in the program.

I think over the long haul that we'd be helping more than 30%. You just made that number up, so there's no evidence either way.

With WIAA rules, we can't double dual unless we drop a tournament.

Many of us are old enough to have wrestled with 12 weights. Would you say there are more numbers now that we have more weight classes? I can't say for sure if we had less weights we'd have more kids, but the numbers continue to fall. "More opportunities" isn't working either. It is time to try something new.

just made up 30%? maybe, but I bet I'm close

be honest, it doesn't help a team with 9 or less to have 12 weights... how many teams is that 30-35%?

don't help teams with 13-14 to have 12 weights...

so it only helps those with 10-12 about 30% of all teams... and saying it helps teams with 10 kids is a stretch as they still start down 12-0 against a full team.... and what if one of the weights you cut is one they fill? they might ne down to 9 wresters now

having 14 weights likely doesn't help the sport much, cutting it to 12 will not help the sport... the strong will still be strong, the weak will still be weak and the middle teams will be helped slightly.

Truth is that the state tournament is like a conference call for all the state's coaches as they are all there talking and many discussion about the future of HS wrestling in this state will be held.  Coaches share what is working and what is not and debate the future and work together.

Quote from: neutral on February 24, 2014, 09:26:46 AM
Why in the friggin' world are we discussing reduction of weight classes during the week plus prior to the top wrestling events in our state!

If you can't stick to the positives of our sport over the next 12 days ... your part of the problem.

Quit with the negative waves!!

Agreed!!!

I think having 12 weights does help the teams with  8 or 9 varsity wrestlers.  They are closer to winning a dual by not losing those 12 points theoretically.  Maybe more matches in a dual rather than each team taking forfeits.  It also gives the perception to wrestlers, fans and most importantly athletic directors that this team is close and only a few wrestlers away from having a full team.

Again, athletic directors have been very generous to wrestling over the years with sending teams to travel with 9 or less kids.  I see the tide switching on that soon and programs lost.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 09:42:23 AM
s.  It also gives the perception to wrestlers, fans and most importantly athletic directors that this team is close and only a few wrestlers away from having a full team.

Again, athletic directors have been very generous to wrestling over the years with sending teams to travel with 9 or less kids.  I see the tide switching on that soon and programs lost.

It won't matter because cutting weight classes will give the AD and administration the sport is dying so when those same teams that are struggling....still struggle it will make their decision much easier.

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 10:43:03 AM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 09:42:23 AM
s.  It also gives the perception to wrestlers, fans and most importantly athletic directors that this team is close and only a few wrestlers away from having a full team.

Again, athletic directors have been very generous to wrestling over the years with sending teams to travel with 9 or less kids.  I see the tide switching on that soon and programs lost.

It won't matter because cutting weight classes will give the AD and administration the sport is dying so when those same teams that are struggling....still struggle it will make their decision much easier.

There is a point to this.   We just have to be careful because it comes down to finances usually.  With fewer duals with idea of more traingulars, that means fewer home events which is the downfall from a fan perspective and and a financial perspective.  Heck we only have 3 or 4 home duals each year now.

I don't think administrators will care if there are 12 or 14 weights.

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 11:26:17 AM
I don't think administrators will care if there are 12 or 14 weights.

Especially if there are actually JV wrestlers then.

There is a coaching element here.  Because so many teams like JV's, there are fewer and fewer JV coaches that are paid for by the schools

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 11:26:17 AM
I don't think administrators will care if there are 12 or 14 weights.

It's not that they care if 12 or 14... It's the perception that the weights were reduced because the sport is dying...let's face it...many AD's could care less about the sport....so do you really think cutting wright classes would have no affect on their perception?

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 09:32:50 AM

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 09:27:19 AM
I'd send two kids because that is what I had.

How would you know what you'll have for next year?  Your a better recruiter than that.   ;)

I am sure he is that in itself should show you something.

Neutral is trying to burry this thread! ;D

I much rather have 8th grade inclusion than cut weights... try it for 5 years if it doesn't improve anything then cut 1 weight... if it is a real success maybe we go to 7th grade next.

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Neutral is trying to burry this thread! ;D

... tried.

Too much effort to do it again - so I'll put in my 2 cents-worth (for the um-teenth time) & be done with it for this go-around (of 2-3/year).

HS sports ... including wrestling is about participation.

Wresting is one of the only sports that (currently) doesn't discriminate against small athletes.

There are 2 aspects to this sport - individual & team.  I enjoy both & think both should be promoted - but some teams will perenially be weak due to local cultural emphases.  The only way to address this is on the local level ... (unless you are a democrat).

Reducing weight classes will increase the quality of wrestling through restricting opportunity to compete - but it will not increase participation ... & it will not make weaker teams relatively better (because the strong will become stronger too).

Nowhere in the WIAA charter will you find raising the quality of any sport as a goal ... except as a natural result of competition through participation.

Quote from: neutral on February 24, 2014, 02:03:55 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Neutral is trying to burry this thread! ;D

... tried.

Too much effort to do it again - so I'll put in my 2 cents-worth (for the um-teenth time) & be done with it for this go-around (of 2-3/year).

HS sports ... including wrestling is about participation.

Wresting is one of the only sports that (currently) doesn't discriminate against small athletes.

There are 2 aspects to this sport - individual & team.  I enjoy both & think both should be promoted - but some teams will perenially be weak due to local cultural emphases.  The only way to address this is on the local level ... (unless you are a democrat).

Reducing weight classes will increase the quality of wrestling through restricting opportunity to compete - but it will not increase participation ... & it will not make weaker teams relatively better (because the strong will become stronger too).

Nowhere in the WIAA charter will you find raising the quality of any sport as a goal ... except as a natural result of competition through participation.

I couldn't have said it better!  Thanks.

I think the level of participation being lower is directly related to the varsity or nothing attitude of kids these days. If kids don't see a spot for themselves on varsity or get beat out they quit instead of sticking it out on JV until their time comes along. When I was in school alot of teams had full varsity, jv and sometimes even frosh teams. And no, it wasn't 1940 :)

Quote from: neutral on February 24, 2014, 02:03:55 PM

Reducing weight classes will increase the quality of wrestling through restricting opportunity to compete

I don't understand what you mean here.  Are you saying like others that JV is not an opportunity to wrestle or as you say it participate?

Again we lose one team to a co-op and we lose a lot of opportunity on varsity and JV as we all know that the host school is still 90% of the roster on most co-ops.

Quote from: moels on February 24, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
I think the level of participation being lower is directly related to the varsity or nothing attitude of kids these days. If kids don't see a spot for themselves on varsity or get beat out they quit instead of sticking it out on JV until their time comes along. When I was in school alot of teams had full varsity, jv and sometimes even frosh teams. And no, it wasn't 1940 :)

And the reason for that attitude is that there are no longer JV teams.  JV teams no longer dual and are treated like we treat 3-4th graders on Saturdays.  round robin or exhibition matches and only wrestle for 4 minutes.  Who would want to be a part of a JV team that really has 3-4 guys on it.

I was a pretty good wrestler.  Spent my 9th grade year wrestling for the junior high because our 9th graders were not at the high school as they are now.  Spent 10th grade on JV.  Kept developing skills as I had to earn a varsity spot.  Our conference duals had two mats going at once, varsity dual on one mat and JV dual on the other mat.  Shorter night and always excitement.  JV was not a second rate citizen.

Quote from: moels on February 24, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
I think the level of participation being lower is directly related to the varsity or nothing attitude of kids these days. If kids don't see a spot for themselves on varsity or get beat out they quit instead of sticking it out on JV until their time comes along. When I was in school alot of teams had full varsity, jv and sometimes even frosh teams. And no, it wasn't 1940 :)

This is why I say it's more about recruiting...coaches need to be continually recruiting....even after they are out!  We also need to make it a better experience on JV.....this JV state us just a start.  Doc....than get your tourney for JVs to 14 weights....and run like varsity.  Probally about same time to run it that way.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 02:21:55 PM

Quote from: moels on February 24, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
I think the level of participation being lower is directly related to the varsity or nothing attitude of kids these days. If kids don't see a spot for themselves on varsity or get beat out they quit instead of sticking it out on JV until their time comes along. When I was in school alot of teams had full varsity, jv and sometimes even frosh teams. And no, it wasn't 1940 :)

And the reason for that attitude is that there are no longer JV teams.  JV teams no longer dual and are treated like we treat 3-4th graders on Saturdays.  round robin or exhibition matches and only wrestle for 4 minutes.  Who would want to be a part of a JV team that really has 3-4 guys on it.

I was a pretty good wrestler.  Spent my 9th grade year wrestling for the junior high because our 9th graders were not at the high school as they are now.  Spent 10th grade on JV.  Kept developing skills as I had to earn a varsity spot.  Our conference duals had two mats going at once, varsity dual on one mat and JV dual on the other mat.  Shorter night and always excitement.  JV was not a second rate citizen.

I agree with that to a point, for our team there are at least 4 tourneys and hopefully matches before duals. Some kids stick it out and wait for their time and other kids do not. My oldest son was not fulltime varsity until this, his sr. year. I am very proud that he stuck with it, wish more kids would.

If 14 is good then 20 would be much better

Quote from: FinalWord on February 24, 2014, 02:31:52 PM
If 14 is good then 20 would be much better

Lets also change Football to 14 and basketball to 14 starters, after all it's about participation.

Chuck

Quote from: FinalWord on February 24, 2014, 02:31:52 PM
If 14 is good then 20 would be much better

if 12 is good maybe 6 is better

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 02:25:56 PM
 Doc....than get your tourney for JVs to 14 weights....and run like varsity.  Probally about same time to run it that way.

Coaches are against this.  As much as they like tournaments where JV and varsity can compete at same venue, they do not want to make it longer.  It would make it longer with more rounds and more matches as everyone still gets 2 matches and many would get 5.

I simply want to make the JV matches at least 1-2-2 to be more like varsity instead of the 2-1-1 and coaches were against that as it makes the day longer.  In my estimation it might add 30 minutes to the day.  Coaches are not as receptive when JV and varsity are together.

JV's should be wrestling at least 5 minutes in all matches in my opinion.

QuoteThis is why I say it's more about recruiting...coaches need to be continually recruiting.

I grow so Dang tired of that argument. In D3 school they simply don't have 4 athletes over 175 that can fill those top spots. 14 weights is a D1 rule. Written by bigger schools for bigger enrollments period. The rule did not originate in WI. Our school consistently has one of the top 10 numbers in the wrestling room every year but allot of good that does if there is no one to wrestle, especially our jvs.

Even in D1 duals, there are teams that load up 40 guys on the bus and travel for a dual where 10 kids actually get a match.  Nobody knows ahead of time who is going to get a match so parents don't even travel.

Quote from: FinalWord on February 24, 2014, 02:43:43 PM

QuoteThis is why I say it's more about recruiting...coaches need to be continually recruiting.

I grow so Dang tired of that argument. In D3 school they simply don't have 4 athletes over 175 that can fill those top spots. 14 weights is a D1 rule. Written by bigger schools for bigger enrollments period. The rule did not originate in WI. Our school consistently has one of the top 10 numbers in the wrestling room every year but allot of good that does if there is no one to wrestle, especially our jvs.

I don't discount what you say...just your solution to the problem.  You want yo reduce numbers above 175 because it works for your program...but not every D3 program has those problems....some may be at the lower end.   Some may be both.  Why is it schools like Coleman, Random Lake  and now even Stratford can field good competitive teams?  They have about same number as you.  Not every team is going to fill every spot....and that's ok....your solution may help some teams but hurt others. 

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 02:46:39 PM
Even in D1 duals, there are teams that load up 40 guys on the bus and travel for a dual where 10 kids actually get a match.  Nobody knows ahead of time who is going to get a match so parents don't even travel.

Except for wher last minute injuries or illnesses occur - it would seem this is a problem that could be handles by coaches ... the day before ... or early the day of.

I am not saying the team should not travel together.  Aboslutely the team should travel together no matter how many the other team has.

D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

In the CLC ....which is division three......two teams 14, two teams 13, one team 12 and one team 7.... There's that one team that brings down the average.  You cut yo 12 weight classes and two teams will lose two wrestlers two teams 1 the team with twelve stands the chance of loosing two depending on where there roster falls, heck the team with 13 could even loose two depending on where there roster falls.  The ln one who stand to gain is the one with 7.... But that's not even a guarantee ......oh yeah...you also stand the chance of making the two teams with 14 even stronger.....how does that help anyone!

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 03:23:17 PM

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

I figured that was coming but we are talking multiple conference with similar numbers.   Having two teams in an entire conference with 14 wrestlers can also distort the numbers.  The point is there are the really good numbers and the really bad numbers but the great majority of wrestling teams fall in the middle ground.

It still makes the point that if those are the numbers for the biggest HS in the state, what are D2 and D3 schools up against..  Our HS has more boys in it than any D2 or D3 has totals students granted we do offer a lot more sports programs and extracurricular activities.

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 03:23:17 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

The NLC was pretty spread out with equally low numbers but heck lets m look at D1 schools they have hundreds to draw from still short wrestlers but they all stink at recruitment?

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:31:20 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 03:23:17 PM

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

I figured that was coming but we are talking multiple conference with similar numbers.   Having two teams in an entire conference with 14 wrestlers can also distort the numbers.  The point is there are the really good numbers and the really bad numbers but the great majority of wrestling teams fall in the middle ground.

It still makes the point that if those are the numbers for the biggest HS in the state, what are D2 and D3 schools up against..  Our HS has more boys in it than any D2 or D3 has totals students granted we do offer a lot more sports programs and extracurricular activities.

You should be asking yourself why a school your size struggles with numbers when schools much smaller than you like Coleman, a Random Lake ,Stratford and Wittenburg are making it work.  I agree your school has more problems than just recruiting...but cutting weight classes is not going to help.

Quote from: chuckref on February 24, 2014, 02:37:13 PM

Quote from: FinalWord on February 24, 2014, 02:31:52 PM
If 14 is good then 20 would be much better

Lets also change Football to 14 and basketball to 14 starters, after all it's about participation.

Chuck

Good to see that (as a referee) you're so objective.  Disappointing for an official to not recognize the difference between team play & team sports.

There is a reason football & basketball have 11 & 5 players on the field/floor at the same time (respectfully) ... design of the game.

This is not football or basketball ... better learn to deal with it!  Football & basketball can take a kid who's not a varsity starter & give him some varsity time.  We can't take a kid who's worked hard but can't beat the starter ... and give him the last 30 seconds of the 3rd period.

I realize 14 is not a magic number - but neither is any other number I've heard discussed on this topic in the past ... (9, 10, 11, 12, or 13).

I don't like that there have to be FFs - but, except for specific team score - IMO ... they don't affect a lot of dual outcomes (again, the strong get stronger too if you eliminate weight classes) ... & they don't affect individual tournaments brackets at all ... except team scores (& except for those who are concerned about the entertainment value of their admission fee).  How many times do you estimate the BYE beats the higher seed ... or how much better entertaiment do you consider a lop-sided pin or tech fall than a FF.  Heck, by Doc's account coaches should love 'em ... because things move along faster.

JV competition does need to be improved to the point that reward for paticipation is enticing enough to improve numbers & retain experienced wrestlers - but, again, when our sport has a problem retaining accomplished wrestlers from grade school into HS ... don't tell me the solution is elimination of weight classes - it's about culture.  

Unless there is a youth program that emphasizes the right kind & amount of participation ... and a coaching staff & community with a passion for wrestling - meaningful JV will not be sustainable ... no matter what you do to create it.  As much as everybody hates to hear it - it's a matter of coaches, parents, and kids recruiting ... building a team atmosphere ... and networking with like-minded schools /communities to support a system of sustainable multi-level competition.  You can't legislate it.  

Quote from: ramjet on February 24, 2014, 03:35:54 PM

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 03:23:17 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:20:29 PM
D3 wrestling conference

11 teams at conference tournament, 84 total wrestlers.

That is 7.6 wrestlers per team with 11 being the most any team brought.

Now take away even more wrestlers that are probably not "varsity" wrestlers.

How long do you think this conference is going to continue to support wrestling

Maybe we just need to look at every conference and see what average number of wrestlers were for each team.

The following are D1 conference with some of the largest schools in the state- seems to be a trend in statistics
The FVA had 111 wrestlers entered for 10 team for an average of 11.1 wrestlers per team
The Wisconsin Valley Conference had 7 teams and 80 wrestlers for 11.4 wrestlers per team
The Southeast Conference tournament had 88 wrestlers and 8 teams for 11 wrestlers per team
The Big 8 Conference had 10 teams and 108 wrestlers for 10.8 wrestlers per team
The North Shore Conference had 8 teams and 91 wrestlers for 11.3 wrestlers per team

I don' think we can blame that all the coaches are not recruiting

One team with poor numbers can greatly distort these numbers.

In the North shore only two teams had less than 11 wrestlers.....we would have had a full team but lost a kid to grades.  The North Shore is not a great wrestling conference....but the numbers at Whitefish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead have been getting better....along with the emergence of Cedarburg.......they have been recruiting.....didn't Ghetto start with 2or 3 wrestlers?  Cutting weight classes is not the answer.

The NLC was pretty spread out with equally low numbers but heck lets m look at D1 schools they have hundreds to draw from still short wrestlers but they all stink at recruitment?

Simple answer.....yes!  It takes different kind of recruiting kids today.  It takes getting into the middle schools and high schools and building relationships with kids.  Many guys are great coaches....build great relationships with their guys.....but that's not getting more guys in the room.  Working hand and hand with football coach, helping get wrestling people in teachers positions, principals ADs, etc.  bottom line ......every school isn't going to be great at wrestling....local priorities may be different....that's ok!  But don't try to bring the other schools down to that level.  

The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:49:11 PM
The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

No it's is not part of the answer to building programs.....it's a bandaide that doesn't even help in most situations and will lead to the eventual loss of programs.

There are ebs and flows with everything.  There are two ways to approach this.  Increasing numbers or decreasing weight classes.  We can do better than this.  Let's not cut weight classes.   Don't punish the teams that get kids out for the sport, organize the off-season, and have a full line-up.  The best programs in the state have studs two or three deep.  Reducing weight classes takes one or more  of them out of making it to state.  In anything in life, we should always base our decisions based on what the best think.   Work to increase quantity by getting more kids interested and get better quality by getting more kids to do Greco and Freestyle.    

Finally, we should not make recommendations based on our perceptions.  Here are some facts from the NWCA:  


SCHOLASTIC WRESTLING (DATA PROVIDED BY NATIONAL HIGH SCHOOL FEDERATION OF ASSOCIATIONS)  
•Scholastic wrestling ranks 6th of all boys' sports in terms of participation at the high school level with over 270,000 nation-wide. (Total Male Participation - Total Male Participation Graph)
•Record number of boy's teams at 10,488
•Since 1994, the number of women who wrestle in high school has grown from 804 to 8727. (Total Female Participation - Total Female Participation Graph)
•California, Guam, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Texas, and Washington sponsor a girl's state high school championship
•Since 2002-03, the number of high school wrestlers has grown by over 40,000.  
•In 2008/09, 42 new wrestling programs were established in Arkansas and the Arkansas High School Athletic Association became the 49th state to sanction a high school state wrestling championship currently, Mississippi is the only state that does not.
•The Cadet/Junior National Championships is the largest wrestling tournament in the world (over 3600 entries).

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 03:49:11 PM
The numbers can be made any way you want.  How can grades be an excuse to not fill a lineup?  Shouldn't there be a back-up if the system is more correctly oriented.

The north shore had 3 teams with 13 or 14 and 5 teams with 11 or less.  So in that conference, I think it would help.

Reducing weight classes is not the answer but it is a part of it.

I also stated that North Shore isn't a great wrestling conference....but from even two years ago they have improved....and will keep improving...how doe reducing weight classes help that out?  So Port and Cedarburg get to make their line ups stronger and the rest are praying weight alignments allow them to wrestle the wrestlers that would have been able to with 14.... Chances are those weight alignments will help maybe 50% of the teams that can not fill the classes now....and will hurt the rest.  

The North shore as a whole seems to be on the upswing while the FVA seems to be on a downturn outside as a whole outside of Kaukauna but even within conferences you have teams on the upswing and teams on the downswing.  The teams that keep it going are pretty amazing.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 04:07:17 PM
The teams that keep it going are pretty amazing.

This should be the discussion.....what are these teams doing?  Not cutting weight classes!

reducing weights won't bring more wrestlers to a conference tournament... it will bring less

Imagine a Christmas tournament with 30-40 teams... you eliminate 2 weights that is potentially 60-80 wrestlers... that is like 4 or 5 full teams worth of wrestlers... you think they won't take a big hit in fans and concession/ticket sales? How many less would be at the state tournament if you took out 80 wrestlers? If each wrestler accounts for 4 fans that is 320 less fans over 5 sessions...

I just don't get why we try to figure out how to reduce weights, why don't we spend more time to up participation with 8th grade inclusion, JV inclusion at the end of season, more triple duals or duals before college matches, less tournaments, get rid of conference (they wrestle each other enough) get rid of Regionals... promote the sport, make it more exciting.

Imagine Stoughton and Deforest dual before a Badger meet... you don't think more fans will be at their meet plus the Badger meet? It is a win/win an it promotes the sport.

From an article at Wissports.net written in April 2013 concerning WIAA sports participation:

"One sport that perhaps surprisingly hasn't seen a large-scale decrease in participation numbers is wrestling. Some have pointed to the sport as dwindling, but while the overall number of teams has gone down by 20, the overall participation has been largely unchanged from the 2002-03 numbers. There was a drop of 535 participants from 2010-11 to 2011-12 however."

http://www.wissports.net/news_article/show/248455

The data by year

Year             # of schools    # participants   participants/school
2011/2012    335                7399                22.1
2010/2011    334                7934                23.8
2009/2010    339                7684                22.7
2008/2009    342                8337                24.4
2007/2008    344                7749                22.5
2006/2007    344                7781                22.6
2005/2006    344                7529                21.9
2004/2005    349                7436                21.3
2003/2004    348                7288                20.9
2002/2003    355                7368                20.8

*  I can't tell from the article whether the term "school" is interchangeable with the term "team."

I honestly think that adding a weight class in the upper weights was just ridiculous.  The heavier weights are spread thin and the level of competitions is sometimes pretty brutal.  If you are thinking about cutting weight classes just go back to how it was in the 70's or 80's.  The light weights and middle weights are where most of the wrestlers fall into place so why would we replace a weight class in the middle weights for the heavier weights?

The numbers above show the issue almost better than anything that I have produced. No we haven't dropped in numbers, but the numbers have always been bad!! We are in a holding pattern where we barely can fill a team.

We have 14 weights. Average participation per school is 22. The stars have to perfectly align to fill all 14 weights. I am also going to guess that they take these participation numbers from the body fat test before the season starts. If so, the kids per team is far less than that. There are teams who body fat test kids who never find their way into the practice room. One example that comes directly to mind is Tosa. They body fat tested 47. They had 19 kids at the end of the season.

When we wrestled Cedarburg, they had three JV kids. We had two. No JV matches were wrestled. When we wrestled Port, we had two JV matches. Unless all three of us have large numbers of kids coming in, we are going to be FFing weights. Port returns 6 kids from the roster they had at conference. We have 10. Cedarburg has 10 as well.

Lets use common sense.  There is no way the average wrestling roster in Wisconsin amongst all divisions is 22.

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
The numbers above show the issue almost better than anything that I have produced. No we haven't dropped in numbers, but the numbers have always been bad!! We are in a holding pattern where we barely can fill a team.

We have 14 weights. Average participation per school is 22. The stars have to perfectly align to fill all 14 weights. I am also going to guess that they take these participation numbers from the body fat test before the season starts. If so, the kids per team is far less than that. There are teams who body fat test kids who never find their way into the practice room. One example that comes directly to mind is Tosa. They body fat tested 47. They had 19 kids at the end of the season.

When we wrestled Cedarburg, they had three JV kids. We had two. No JV matches were wrestled. When we wrestled Port, we had two JV matches. Unless all three of us have large numbers of kids coming in, we are going to be FFing weights. Port returns 6 kids from the roster they had at conference. We have 10. Cedarburg has 10 as well.

port has 8 returning guys and it wasn't our lack of JV that we only had two jv matches.

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 08:27:49 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
The numbers above show the issue almost better than anything that I have produced. No we haven't dropped in numbers, but the numbers have always been bad!! We are in a holding pattern where we barely can fill a team.

We have 14 weights. Average participation per school is 22. The stars have to perfectly align to fill all 14 weights. I am also going to guess that they take these participation numbers from the body fat test before the season starts. If so, the kids per team is far less than that. There are teams who body fat test kids who never find their way into the practice room. One example that comes directly to mind is Tosa. They body fat tested 47. They had 19 kids at the end of the season.

When we wrestled Cedarburg, they had three JV kids. We had two. No JV matches were wrestled. When we wrestled Port, we had two JV matches. Unless all three of us have large numbers of kids coming in, we are going to be FFing weights. Port returns 6 kids from the roster they had at conference. We have 10. Cedarburg has 10 as well.

port has 8 returning guys and it wasn't our lack of JV that we only had two jv matches.

Why only two Aaron?

Lack of JV hurts this sport as much maybe more than anything.

Parents would be more engaged with more JV opportunities.
JV and less killed wrestlers would have some success that may keep them on the team.
More JV wrestling may stop the idea that they have to be on Varsity because they are seeing success and have opportunity to wrestle as much.
8th inclusion would really help with JV numbers and allow you groom those wrestlers for varsity.

To all the guys who think we need to recruit more. That the guys that want to reduce are not doing enough to promote the sport or not trying hard enough to fill our teams. We had 25 kids on our roster {and were missing 3 weights, we filled them but with kids who didn't belong in them}  our school has an enrollment of 586 1/2 or 293 would be male. 8.5% of the males in our school wrestled. Not to pick on anyone inparticular but Port Washington has 931 1/2 or 465 are males 8.5% of the males would be 39 Ports roster is 33 or 7% of its males. Its not lack of recruiting its the number of kids available. It is very hard to have a 14 man roster and improve younger wrestlers by sending them to JV and Freshman events at the same time when you have a pool of 293.

If it were lack of available....how do you account for Colemans, Random Lakes and Stratford doing it?  Maybe some don't need to recruit more....but to recruit better....and yes we also need to do a better job in Port also. 

Quote from: aarons23 on February 24, 2014, 08:27:49 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
The numbers above show the issue almost better than anything that I have produced. No we haven't dropped in numbers, but the numbers have always been bad!! We are in a holding pattern where we barely can fill a team.

We have 14 weights. Average participation per school is 22. The stars have to perfectly align to fill all 14 weights. I am also going to guess that they take these participation numbers from the body fat test before the season starts. If so, the kids per team is far less than that. There are teams who body fat test kids who never find their way into the practice room. One example that comes directly to mind is Tosa. They body fat tested 47. They had 19 kids at the end of the season.

When we wrestled Cedarburg, they had three JV kids. We had two. No JV matches were wrestled. When we wrestled Port, we had two JV matches. Unless all three of us have large numbers of kids coming in, we are going to be FFing weights. Port returns 6 kids from the roster they had at conference. We have 10. Cedarburg has 10 as well.

port has 8 returning guys and it wasn't our lack of JV that we only had two jv matches.

Pretty sure you guys weighed in 19 guys vs. us. I'm not blaming Port for the lack of matches. We have a numbers problem. I'd say 19 kids is also a problem.

Pretty sure you did line ups prior to us even coming so I don't believe we made all jvs weigh in.  If you looked at the bleachers next to the wrestlers bench...all those boys dressed nicely were wrestlers.   How many jv's did we have at your JV tournament? 

I do believe we will have a numbers problem the next two years.....we need to recruit better! We shouldn't be proposing to cut the number of weight classes.

Looking at skin folds for the North Shore ....  Cedarburg had 25, Whitefish bay had 23 and Port had 33...... It appears part of the problem is retaining them.  How many wrestlers did Cedarburg and Whitefish bay end up with.  We lost at least 7. 

Let's also please not base everything around what's happening in the North Shore Conference ... or any other conference (for that matter).

If you think the stars have to align to fill 14 weight classes - imagine how much more they will have to align to fill 13 classes ... competitively (rather than just with somebody).

If (over a period of time) the vast majority of schools can't fill the same weight class ... and if the quality of wrestling is significantly substandard to the rest of the weight classes - perhaps an argument could be made against the validity of that weight class - but the only places I see anything even approaching that are the top 2-3 weight classes ... and they have a right to participate as well.

I recruit like mad....Kids just don't want to come out because its too many weekends(all day)....Dec through the end of Feb....6 days a week.  Then throw in the fact that its the toughest sport to be in.

How does lowering the weights from 14-12 change that fact that kids are sick of wrestling every weekend?  Maintaining weight?  Keeping their skin healthy?  Having one day off a week? 

We need to change the way we present the sport.   I am dropping at least two weekend tournaments and adding Friday night duels.  The result has been positive so far to our members and we hope to add more kids because of it.

JauguarWrestler has some great ideas also....this non-sense of dropping from 14-12 is idiotic.   And who the inappropriate term3 compares football and basketball to wrestling?!

I recruit like crazy too.

Our kids, for the most part, don't cut weight.

We schedule our tournaments so they get time off when the doldrums of January come around. Our JV kids get tons of time off during the holidays.

We bodyfatted 21 kids really. One is a coach, and another is a diver who happened to come out for the one day we fatted, then went back to diving when his mom wouldn't let him wrestle. We ended with 16. Lost 5 to quitting for a variety of reasons. Five quitting is the most we've had in ages.

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 10:29:57 PM
I recruit like crazy too.

Our kids, for the most part, don't cut weight.

We schedule our tournaments so they get time off when the doldrums of January come around. Our JV kids get tons of time off during the holidays.

Ghetto...I have to ask you this because I don't know....how do you recruit at Whitefish Bay when you work in MPS?  It has to be a pretty big obstical  in recruiting if you can only get face to face with a small percentage of students.  Again...I don't know the answer to this which is why I am asking.....do you have any coaches on staff that work in the middle school? Or high school?

I show up at kids club. I will also start help coaching at the middle school on days I don't have my own kids. Luke Davey, my young assistant, is our middle school coach. Billy Kraus, my other assistant, works in the high school.

I am also going to start lifting in the weight room at Bay after school, and offer our equipment to football players so they can work out with our implements from Hades (kettle bells, sandbags, russian bags, etc.) again, on days I don't have my own kids.

I know there is more I can do. We are going to change the way our kids club is run, and I am going to get more involved in that too as a coach when I can.

Do you think your numbers will keep improving like they have the last three years!

I didn't see them dropping like they did. For my sanity they need to improve. We have had 20 something in the room for the past few years.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Lets use common sense.  There is no way the average wrestling roster in Wisconsin amongst all divisions is 22.

What do you feel it is?

Quote from: Ghetto on February 24, 2014, 10:44:17 PM
I show up at kids club. I will also start help coaching at the middle school on days I don't have my own kids. Luke Davey, my young assistant, is our middle school coach. Billy Kraus, my other assistant, works in the high school.

I am also going to start lifting in the weight room at Bay after school, and offer our equipment to football players so they can work out with our implements from Hades (kettle bells, sandbags, russian bags, etc.) again, on days I don't have my own kids.

I know there is more I can do. We are going to change the way our kids club is run, and I am going to get more involved in that too as a coach when I can.

I think this is a key component to recruitment. Getting the youth kids out to watch and support the high school team, and getting some of the high school kids and coaches to engage with the youth, with emphasis on the middle school aged kids. It's great to have kids wrestling in youth, but if they aren't hanging in and wrestling in high school, that's a problem.

Quote from: littleguy301 on February 24, 2014, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Lets use common sense.  There is no way the average wrestling roster in Wisconsin amongst all divisions is 22.

What do you feel it is?

My impression is that there is a small percentage of teams (less than 10%) that end the season with more than 30 kids in the room and quite a few with less than 20 and even less.  22 seemed like a lot and now that I think about it, it is probably close as I would probably put the average at about 18.  many of these D2 and D3 schools are going to destroy that average.

I do think wrestling coaches need to look at all the Saturdays they spend.  Most wrestlers are not excited for all those early mornings and long days and neither are there parents.  I don't think wrestling gets much support at home from parents when "Jimmy" says he wants to quit.  Parents are not there to push them back because of all the weekends and health issues also.  Coaches would probably enjoy more weekends off and it would be better for their families also but they all feel pressure to do the max by the rules or to keep up with what other coaches do.

Time to for some coaches to stop following and just doing the same as other coaches or what they did in their day.  It is about teaching and then preparing wrestlers for success.  Wrestling 10 less matches each year is not going to make your wrestler worse.  Break the stereotypes just like many sports physiologists will tell you that running is not appropriate/efficient training for wrestling other than for weight loss.

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2014, 08:18:14 AM

Quote from: littleguy301 on February 24, 2014, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Lets use common sense.  There is no way the average wrestling roster in Wisconsin amongst all divisions is 22.

What do you feel it is?

My impression is that there is a small percentage of teams (less than 10%) that end the season with more than 30 kids in the room and quite a few with less than 20 and even less.  22 seemed like a lot and now that I think about it, it is probably close as I would probably put the average at about 18.  many of these D2 and D3 schools are going to destroy that average.

I do think wrestling coaches need to look at all the Saturdays they spend.  Most wrestlers are not excited for all those early mornings and long days and neither are there parents.  I don't think wrestling gets much support at home from parents when "Jimmy" says he wants to quit.  Parents are not there to push them back because of all the weekends and health issues also.  Coaches would probably enjoy more weekends off and it would be better for their families also but they all feel pressure to do the max by the rules or to keep up with what other coaches do.

Time to for some coaches to stop following and just doing the same as other coaches or what they did in their day.  It is about teaching and then preparing wrestlers for success.  Wrestling 10 less matches each year is not going to make your wrestler worse.  Break the stereotypes just like many sports physiologists will tell you that running is not appropriate/efficient training for wrestling other than for weight loss.

We missed a Saturday tourney and had other kids not make some due to ACT testing and being sick or what not. Missing those sure didn't help our team. My son and daughter had a total around 25 matches on the year. The most of any on our team was around 30. But we didn't advance even one kid to Sectionals. So having a lack of matches, didn't really help our team either. I know there has to be a fine balance. Some kids love the tourneys, some kids only like duals, some kids want to only wrestle JV and some only Varsity. We even had one kid that just wanted to come out to practice, and not do any meets.

So I think a coach needs to look at his team and figure out what is best for them. Unfortunately, it is had to predict what will be the best for an upcoming team, unless you have a lot of returning kids. It is kinda like making every kid in the room work on low singles. Most heavy weights, don't shoot low singles, so what is the importance of them practicing them to the extent that the 160 and below do?

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 25, 2014, 08:18:14 AM

Quote from: littleguy301 on February 24, 2014, 11:05:37 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 24, 2014, 08:00:38 PM
Lets use common sense.  There is no way the average wrestling roster in Wisconsin amongst all divisions is 22.

What do you feel it is?

My impression is that there is a small percentage of teams (less than 10%) that end the season with more than 30 kids in the room and quite a few with less than 20 and even less.  22 seemed like a lot and now that I think about it, it is probably close as I would probably put the average at about 18.  many of these D2 and D3 schools are going to destroy that average.

I do think wrestling coaches need to look at all the Saturdays they spend.  Most wrestlers are not excited for all those early mornings and long days and neither are there parents.  I don't think wrestling gets much support at home from parents when "Jimmy" says he wants to quit.  Parents are not there to push them back because of all the weekends and health issues also.  Coaches would probably enjoy more weekends off and it would be better for their families also but they all feel pressure to do the max by the rules or to keep up with what other coaches do.

Time to for some coaches to stop following and just doing the same as other coaches or what they did in their day.  It is about teaching and then preparing wrestlers for success.  Wrestling 10 less matches each year is not going to make your wrestler worse.  Break the stereotypes just like many sports physiologists will tell you that running is not appropriate/efficient training for wrestling other than for weight loss.

I agree 100%....in my unofficial analysis of kids that wrestled in youth or MS and not in high school, or High Schooler's that quit...the number one reason they say is the amount(and length) of Saturday tournaments.  I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that missing one or two tournaments during the season makes one bit of difference.  For most wrestlers (and Coaches) the season is simply too long and arduous, we should start it later (after Thanksgiving) and reduce the number of Saturdays...I bet you would actually see the level of wrestling get better at the Tournaments that were attended.

What I see and hear in my area, most of the highly successful high school teams have a awesome youth program with great numbers. The high school coaches get involved in the youth program and keep it fun. They not only get the kids hooked but also make the parents of those youth participating feel like they belong, even if they don't come from a wrestling background.

Quote from: beastmode on February 25, 2014, 09:35:14 AM
What I see and hear in my area, most of the highly successful high school teams have a awesome youth program with great numbers. The high school coaches get involved in the youth program and keep it fun. They not only get the kids hooked but also make the parents of those youth participating feel like they belong, even if they don't come from a wrestling background.

that seems to be true in any sport... if a school has success in softball or football or whatever you can generally bet they have a good youth program in place. At the same time plenty of football teams and softball teams etc. are perennial doormats yet we don't talk about cutting the number of players to try and make them stronger. Cutting 2 weights doesn't make your youth program better or coaches better, the bottom 50% will still be the bottom 50% until they change the program. Instead of focusing on how to trim weights we should focus on how to increase participation.... imo that doesn't come from trimming weights but from building programs and promoting the sport with some of the suggestions I made.

Beastmode you hit it right on the head!!!If you have a good feeder program and get the parents on board it all pays off in the long run.Coaches at all 3 levels(youth,middle school and high school)need to be on same page.

Quote from: jaguarwrestler on February 25, 2014, 09:43:01 AM

Quote from: beastmode on February 25, 2014, 09:35:14 AM
What I see and hear in my area, most of the highly successful high school teams have a awesome youth program with great numbers. The high school coaches get involved in the youth program and keep it fun. They not only get the kids hooked but also make the parents of those youth participating feel like they belong, even if they don't come from a wrestling background.

that seems to be true in any sport... if a school has success in softball or football or whatever you can generally bet they have a good youth program in place. At the same time plenty of football teams and softball teams etc. are perennial doormats yet we don't talk about cutting the number of players to try and make them stronger. Cutting 2 weights doesn't make your youth program better or coaches better, the bottom 50% will still be the bottom 50% until they change the program. Instead of focusing on how to trim weights we should focus on how to increase participation.... imo that doesn't come from trimming weights but from building programs and promoting the sport with some of the suggestions I made.

I agree 100%. My point is that recruiting the halls of the high school today is a short term fix. You can still do that for now but don't think that that is going to solve the problem. You need to build on the youth and JH programs. If you look around my area, West Central Wisconsin, we have some great programs that are perfect examples... Amery, Ellsworth, Spring Valley/Elmwood and Boyceville.

from Doc:
Time to for some coaches to stop following and just doing the same as other coaches or what they did in their day.  It is about teaching and then preparing wrestlers for success.  Wrestling 10 less matches each year is not going to make your wrestler worse.  Break the stereotypes just like many sports physiologists will tell you that running is not appropriate/efficient training for wrestling other than for weight loss.

from Quack:
We missed a Saturday tourney and had other kids not make some due to ACT testing and being sick or what not. Missing those sure didn't help our team. My son and daughter had a total around 25 matches on the year. The most of any on our team was around 30. But we didn't advance even one kid to Sectionals. So having a lack of matches, didn't really help our team either. I know there has to be a fine balance. Some kids love the tourneys, some kids only like duals, some kids want to only wrestle JV and some only Varsity. We even had one kid that just wanted to come out to practice, and not do any meets.
So I think a coach needs to look at his team and figure out what is best for them. Unfortunately, it is had to predict what will be the best for an upcoming team, unless you have a lot of returning kids. It is kinda like making every kid in the room work on low singles. Most heavy weights, don't shoot low singles, so what is the importance of them practicing them to the extent that the 160 and below do?

from me:
Agreed that weekend activity could be cut back.  Again - this isn't football or basketball ... (not all day and, depending on travel, often well into the evening).
Agreed that just running doesn't do much for endurance - but depending upon when & how much ... it's certainly a practical element of conditioning.  Starting practice with a short run gets the heart pumping & blood flowing.  Ending practice with a run (1 mile), then jog, then stretch ... following a series of some "30 secong goes" ... does a good deal for endurance.  Muscle fatigue resistance requires wrestling.  Mental fatigue resistance & breathing require cardio training - for which running is the only exercise available to the team simultaniously ... unless you've got a lot of eliptical machines in your training room.
Agreed - coaches have to be the ones to be bold enough to scale back competiton while retaining or improving a minimum level of quality of competition (geared to the level of his team) - which may require more year-to-year change in routine schedules than we are familiar with - but which challenges the team to improve ... with over-challenging them (too much).  I think most of us can think of at least 1 tournament our favorite team goes to that it would be no worse for the wear it it did not participate there.

Years ago, when I was trying to build our middle school numbers, our conference had a schedule in which meets were every Tues. and Thurs., with practices on Mon. and Wed.  Schools didn't practice on Fri., because there was no activity buses running that day and we are all pretty spread out (rural).  With Wed. P.M. Confirmation classes, that left kids with only one or two practices per week.
I broke the mold (and made some folks upset) by refusing to schedule any Tues. meets and offering an optional Fri. practice for those with transportation available.  My logic was that we, as coaches, are teachers of the sport.  In our classrooms, do we give a test after every lesson?  That's essentially what our conference schedule was forcing us to do to wrestlers.  Within a couple of years, our numbers jumped from less than 20 kids to about 80 (6th, 7th, and 8th graders).  We had only 2 coaches, but several high school kids also volunteered to help at practice (which really improved their technique, too.  One wrestler (Steve Schaaf) served as an unpaid assistant for all 4 years and became an excellent high school coach (Chetek-Prairie Farm).  We also got 2 Sat. buses per season and focused on taking our kids on long trips to tournaments that offered a team trophy.  This minimized kids riding home with parents and promoted team bonding.  With more practices than competitions, we focused on basic skills, position, conditioning, responsibility, team loyalty, etc. and made up games and drills that made it fun, too.  Kids stayed with the program and wrestled well in competition.  Over time, I noticed a decrease in numbers, as the following occurred: 1) Kids started wrestling multiple weekend tournaments (some went on Fri., Sat., Sun.).  2) We had large numbers of kids participating in State Freestyle and Folkstyle tournaments (repeat placewinners started dropping out in 7th or 8th grade).  3) All youth sports programs started competing aggressively for the same kids; starting younger, increasing competitive events, extending the season length, etc.  
4) Our school district enrollment dropped dramatically.

Before I quit coaching, our numbers were about 30 kids per year, with about 2/3 of them sticking with it in high school.  Seldom got a new kid out in middle school, anymore.  

This is an issue being faced by coaches in every sport.  Kids today have more options than in the past, Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, ski team, ect.  Combine that with the fact that less kids are multiple sport athletes, & you can see why every sport is fighting to keep kids.  I have spoken to our football coach who has pleaded with me to speak with a few of our year round wrestlers, that in their youth were stud football players & he is certain would be again at the HS level.  25 years ago it would have been a no brainer that these kids would play football.  Now they travel across the country all spring, summer, & into the fall participating in wresting tournaments.  It will never be the same as it was in the past no matter what changes are made. 

Quote from: 1Iota on February 25, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
This is an issue being faced by coaches in every sport.  Kids today have more options than in the past, Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, ski team, ect.  Combine that with the fact that less kids are multiple sport athletes, & you can see why every sport is fighting to keep kids.  I have spoken to our football coach who has pleaded with me to speak with a few of our year round wrestlers, that in their youth were stud football players & he is certain would be again at the HS level.  25 years ago it would have been a no brainer that these kids would play football.  Now they travel across the country all spring, summer, & into the fall participating in wresting tournaments.  It will never be the same as it was in the past no matter what changes are made. 

...unless the sports leadership across the country ALL makes the same changes together.  That's a long shot.

 ??? I really have a hard time believing that the most popular subject on here is about cutting weight classes,especially 2 days before the biggest tournament that some kids will ever wrestle in.I guarantee that there isnt a wrestler that is getting ready for the big show that is worrying about length of season or amount of Saturdays that have been tied up for last 3 monthes!!!

Quote from: 1Iota on February 25, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
This is an issue being faced by coaches in every sport.  Kids today have more options than in the past, Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, ski team, ect.  Combine that with the fact that less kids are multiple sport athletes, & you can see why every sport is fighting to keep kids.  I have spoken to our football coach who has pleaded with me to speak with a few of our year round wrestlers, that in their youth were stud football players & he is certain would be again at the HS level.  25 years ago it would have been a no brainer that these kids would play football.  Now they travel across the country all spring, summer, & into the fall participating in wresting tournaments.  It will never be the same as it was in the past no matter what changes are made. 

If only that was a problem that every school had.

Quote from: boowrestle on February 25, 2014, 12:14:00 PM
??? I really have a hard time believing that the most popular subject on here is about cutting weight classes,especially 2 days before the biggest tournament that some kids will ever wrestle in.I guarantee that there isnt a wrestler that is getting ready for the big show that is worrying about length of season or amount of Saturdays that have been tied up for last 3 monthes!!!

HERE! ... HERE!!

The single most important component to recruitment

Success

Quote from: neutral on February 25, 2014, 12:53:32 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on February 25, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
This is an issue being faced by coaches in every sport.  Kids today have more options than in the past, Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, ski team, ect.  Combine that with the fact that less kids are multiple sport athletes, & you can see why every sport is fighting to keep kids.  I have spoken to our football coach who has pleaded with me to speak with a few of our year round wrestlers, that in their youth were stud football players & he is certain would be again at the HS level.  25 years ago it would have been a no brainer that these kids would play football.  Now they travel across the country all spring, summer, & into the fall participating in wresting tournaments.  It will never be the same as it was in the past no matter what changes are made. 

If only that was a problem that every school had.

But it is a problem at a lot of schools.  Not always wrestling, but football is losing kids to a lot of other sports.  Numbers are down across the country for high school football.  Which was my original point.  All sports are facing this issue, even America's passion. 

Quote from: 1Iota on February 25, 2014, 02:17:58 PM

Quote from: neutral on February 25, 2014, 12:53:32 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on February 25, 2014, 11:26:13 AM
This is an issue being faced by coaches in every sport.  Kids today have more options than in the past, Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, ski team, ect.  Combine that with the fact that less kids are multiple sport athletes, & you can see why every sport is fighting to keep kids.  I have spoken to our football coach who has pleaded with me to speak with a few of our year round wrestlers, that in their youth were stud football players & he is certain would be again at the HS level.  25 years ago it would have been a no brainer that these kids would play football.  Now they travel across the country all spring, summer, & into the fall participating in wresting tournaments.  It will never be the same as it was in the past no matter what changes are made. 

If only that was a problem that every school had.

But it is a problem at a lot of schools.  Not always wrestling, but football is losing kids to a lot of other sports.  Numbers are down across the country for high school football.  Which was my original point.  All sports are facing this issue, even America's passion. 

Our football team during the 1995-96 school year had ONE senior out for football, because most of the boys were involved in basketball year-round.  It started a couple of years before that, when we had so many varsity basketball players that the bench looked like the first row of fans.  One of our senior wrestlers took pity on the majority of bored basketball players and ordered a large pizza to be delivered to the bench during a home game.  For some reason, it was frowned upon.   ;)

One of our senior wrestlers took pity on the majority of bored basketball players and ordered a large pizza to be delivered to the bench during a home game.  For some reason, it was frowned upon.        Classic, that young man has my vote for President.